11-30-2014, 12:02 AM | #3601 | |
Double Dragon
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,776
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Quote:
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12-01-2014, 01:03 AM | #3603 |
Problematic Fave
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
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12-01-2014, 01:37 PM | #3604 |
I make cryin' babies weep
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,243
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This was a good move because now things can be banned from Ubers without Smogon making themselves look dumb by banning things from their ban list!
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12-01-2014, 01:38 PM | #3605 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Ubers has been a tier from the longest time. It's just been tradition that you don't ban stuff from Ubers partly because of stupid kids and partly because of salty old-timers.
This was a great move and something that really should have happened at some point in the past.
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12-02-2014, 03:55 AM | #3606 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,729
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It's really just codifying what has been the case aince the creation of ubers though. It was always a tier and it always had stuff you couldn't do.
Inb4 Anything Goes bans Mega Gengar |
12-02-2014, 12:12 PM | #3608 | |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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So, to answer your question: his score of 1097 going into this match probably has more to do with his lack of skill than the server reset.
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12-02-2014, 07:33 PM | #3609 |
Fallen from the Stars
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>Needed to catch a Bagon in ORAS to prepare for a possibly MSalamence-heavy vgc meta
>Catches a Naive one on the first try >Left my DS to sit while I did other things >My brother was dicking around with my DS and popped the SD card out ...groan Ranting aside, do you VGC-savvy folk think MSally will be the menace in VGC that he was in Smogon OU? MKanga wasn't nearly as bad in VGC as she was in OU (Still super heavily used, but whatever) |
12-02-2014, 08:11 PM | #3610 |
Double Dragon
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,776
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Not a VGC player, but I would think access to Intimidate + insane crazy Mega stats will probably make it popular. Also it's new, so people will probably use it more often just because of that.
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12-02-2014, 09:09 PM | #3611 |
Think ye can take me?
Join Date: Dec 2013
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Yeah Mega Sally is likely going to become huge in VGC because ALL THE DEFENSE
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12-02-2014, 09:11 PM | #3612 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
Posts: 3,279
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MSally was in legit OU for like a few days tops. It was allowed in the OM where it was found to terrorize anything that couldn't OHKO it after tanking something, and thus was quickbanned when ORAS was officially released.
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12-02-2014, 10:37 PM | #3613 | ||
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
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Don't get me wrong: your direction (defensive nuisances beget Mega Salamence adoption) works too. Certainly, people will probably want to test out Mega Salamence if he treats Ludicolo and Rotom-Wash like Play-Doh. I just don't think this is the end of the story (or even of the first chapter to the story), is all. And speaking of Mega Salamence's ability to treat as Play-Doh things that ordinary Salamence could not already treat that way ... Quote:
You claim that Mega Salamence has "insane crazy Mega stats." But really ... he doesn't. ^^; What stands out in Singles is the +20 to Speed he received, transforming him from speed war chump to speed war champ. That plus a +10 bonus to Attack and Aerilate are what he has going for him. But in Doubles, the speed gain only means that he no longer needs to run Choice Scarf (the most popular set) or Dragon Dance to outspeed Garchomp. This is significant, yes, but I don't think it's meta shattering. As for that +10 to Attack and +10 to Special Attack ... it really isn't going to be noticed. ^^;; Salamence was popular in Doubles to begin with precisely because his Draco Meteors could reliably OHKO enemy Garchomp, Salamence, and Hydreigon with ease. He wasn't in a position where he was just a few points shy of OHKOing them, a position where that +10 to SpAtk would have been a real gift indeed. No, all this really does is means that instead of dealing 70% HP damage to some random non-dragon dude he now deals say 90% HP damage. Nice, sure. Free extra damage is always nice! But not format shattering, I believe. For a comparison, Salamence's base attack increased by less than 10% whereas Kangaskhan's increased (effectively) by a whopping 180%:
Long story short, I am not declaring that Mega Salamence won't break VGC ... but I do think it highly unlikely. Given what I have seen VGC weather over the past seven months and given what I have read about it weathering in earlier formats, I think it will handle Mega Salamence just fine.
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12-03-2014, 11:39 AM | #3614 | |||||
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
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Example of a typical battle in early Anything Goes.
Quote:
Quote:
These like-minded individuals comprised the majority of the Ubers voting bloc for three and a half generations. (3, 4, 5, and the XY era of 6.) Some time starting around the late 5th generation, early 6th generation, the tier started to see a divide between old school and new school:
The clash between old and new school came to a head most recently with the suspect test of Mega Gengar in Ubers. As we've previously discussed here on our own forum, Smogon decided to hold a suspect test for Mega Gengar because many players (most of them in the new school) objected to the impact the creature was having on Ubers. And the results of the test ... were that a clear majority of voters voted to keep Mega Gengar in Ubers. The suspect test was overseen by a revered (but, from what I gathered from my readings, all but retired) veteran of the Ubers community, Hugendugen, the top mod of the Ubers forum. He represented the old school point of view, expressing discomfort with banning things from Ubers unless they really, really needed it. (Like endless battles. That he was okay with banning.) But there were several younger moderators, mods who (from what I understand) are a lot more active in the scene these days, who were members of the new school of thought. And they wrote many a passionate post in the discussion thread about how Mega Gengar had to go. After the votes came in, they and their supporters expressed frustration with the voting process. And what happened next? Well ... as you may recall, they then held a second suspect test, this time asking the more general question of whether all Shadow Tag users period should be banned from Ubers or not. Well, needless to say, many saw this as an underhanded attempt at putting Mega Gengar through a second, immediate suspect test. Contemporary veterans (as well as long-time veterans too) of the Ubers forum on both sides of the fence became embroiled in bitter debate, often with the pro-ban moderators flatly rejecting the logic of the anti-ban veterans. It was pretty clear to everyone what was happening -- several people on the Ubers ban council wanted Mega Gengar gone from their meta and would stop at nothing to see it done. And sure enough, when the voting thread went up, what do you think happened? Quote: Quote:
Quote:
Well, as one might imagine ... this was the final straw. The announcement was made on November 17; that same day, Fireburn had a follow-up post in which he announced that "there have been discrepancies with other community members regarding how things were handled and we are working on sorting them out." Ya think!? This is a mighty fine PR spin if ever I saw one. Over the next six days, much was said on and off the forum, and ultimately Fireburn posted on November 23: Quote:
So when you say, "Man, Anything Goes is such a great idea! " and when you then ask, "Why didn't they think of this sooner!?", the reason it wasn't done sooner is because its implementation is effectively a means to settling the civil war that brewed within Ubers towards the end of the XY era. Or, as I said from the beginning: politics. The decision to split Ubers in half between Anything Goes (a.k.a. Ubers as envisioned by the old school) and new Ubers (a.k.a. Ubers as envisioned by the new school) was surely, surely done in direct response to the controversial Mega Gengar and Shadow Tag suspect tests. Now, it's worth noting that Anything Goes doesn't do things the way that even Gen 3 Ubers did. Because even Gen 3 Ubers had some rules in place. (Like Sleep Clause and Species Clause.) So it will be interesting to see whether, in the near or distant future, we get yet another split off of Ubers that is meant to exist in between the two, a format where (like Ubers) there are some baseline clauses in place but where (like Anything Goes) not one single species is banned. Because I do wonder about the long-term viability of Anything Goes. Do people really want to play in a format with nothing but Baton Pass chains and Mega Rayquaza? It seems doubtful. But the old school Ubers players are sure to resent playing in new Ubers as well, an alien environment where creatures can and will be banned for being too powerful. It's also worth nothing that, as a direct consequence of what took place, the Smogon staff are talking as though they no longer want to allow bans in new Ubers to be carried out by suspect tests. Rather, they will leave those bans up entirely to the whims of the ban council. This sets a rather dangerous precedent for the lower tiers -- as now that Ubers has joined them in being a fully-recognized tier, it paves the path for the lower tiers' ban councils to ask why they should be beholden to the idiot mob when they could just ban things as they personally see fit. We'll have to see what ends up happening, but one thing is clear: the specter of the death of democracy on Smogon has not left us yet.
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12-03-2014, 06:38 PM | #3615 |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
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So after a ridiculous amount of effort (and 99 games), I finally managed to get my Elo score above 1550 in the newest world order of Random Battle. When I started back up two days ago, I coasted from the 1200s all the way up until the 1450s. But then things suddenly got tough. Like, remarkably tough. Like, I felt like I was right back in the 1700s or 1800s fighting tooth and nail to defend my membership in the 1900s Club. Given that the currently-highest scores on the ladder are only in the 1700s (whereas they used to be above 2000), I think this reflects on the fact that the 1500s are probably akin to the 1800s of just a few months ago.
According to Showdown, this is my current set of scores for Juisho: Code:
Format Elo GXE Glicko-1 COIL W L T randombattle 1556 70 1663 ± 35 -- 60 39 0 My win:loss ratio is really bad right now. This is because of two unrelated humps where I was winning roughly only 50% of the time. The first was in the days immediately after the ladder reset, where I found myself losing games roughly 50% of the time against players of my own skill level ... even though Elo-score-wise I was only in the 1000s. -_-; The second was yesterday and today where I would win two only to lose two, win one only to lose one, again and again and again and again and again, but this time the losses weren't ascribable (generally) to my opponents being at or above my skill level but rather to having the world's worst luck when it comes to the team distributions. (Example 1: I had a Jumpluff with Sleep Powder / Encore / Synthesis / U-Turn, an Amoongus with Spore / Clear Smog / HP:Fire / Giga Drain, and a Sandslash one game where my opponent had an Ice Beam Claydol, an Ice type I've forgotten, and a Regice.) A win-loss ratio of 1.5 : 1 is pretty horrid for sub-100 games. I guess it'll be up to Suisho and Zuisho to set the record straight for me once the ladder stabilizes more. For now, I'll just stick to Juisho and see how high I can get his Elo. Speaking of, an Elo of 1556 puts Juisho in 144th place right now on the Random Battle ladder. For reference, Daisy has a score of 1588 and is in 81st place. This tells you a lot about the pioneer state of the upper ladder right now. If you've ever wanted to make Top 100 but the best you could achieve was Top 300, I'd say that now is the time to act. That stated, it may already be too late if you're the type of person who has always wanted to make Top 500 but was never able to. I say that because 500th place on the ladder right now is already a score in the 1470s, meaning that the bottom 350 places on the ladder are all scores in a 100-point window (between 1560 and 1460). And I've been bouncing down to the 1470s quiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite a bit today in my endeavors to get to -- and remain in -- the 1500s.
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12-03-2014, 07:26 PM | #3616 |
I make cryin' babies weep
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Your post about Ubers and AG is completely on point, but the one thing that's kinda glaring to me is the last sentence. Smogon was never a democracy, it's never tried to be a democracy, and it never should be a democracy, at least from what I've seen over the past two years. It's more of an oligarchy made of the tier leaders and their friends, most of which either got there through placing well in tournaments, frequently voicing the same opinions as those already in the higher ranks, a whole lot of ass kissing, and being a large participant in IRC and the subforum. If Smogon was ever trying to be a democracy, then Suspect Tests would have never existed. I mean, I personally think a democracy would end up horribly, but it's kind of hard to say the death of democracy is happening if there never was a democracy in the first place. But other than that, you're more or less completely right.
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12-03-2014, 07:48 PM | #3617 | |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
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What it may not have ever done: sincerely tried to be a democracy What it most certainly has done: boast to outsiders and to newcomers alike that what makes Suspect Tests so grand is that they are "democracy in action" and that anyone who accuses Smogon's ban decisions of being made by an oligarchy can go shove a rod up their ass I agree with you, as several of us have discovered all too painfully well, that Smogon's bans are in no way democratic. That stated, many a Smogon staff member or Smogon fanboy has boasted that they are. It is the most commonly-stated claim whenever discontent amongst non-Smogon ban testers is at its peak: "If you don't like the ban council's decision, then 'git gud' and qualify for recs. Quit saying the process isn't democratic. It is. Anyone who qualifies for recs may vote." But as we've already seen several times now over the past year, it is no longer enough that you pass reqs: the staff will sometimes toss your vote out if they deem it incompetent, and the staff will other times not even hold a public vote but will instead have the ban council single-handedly determine the fate of a given gameplay element.
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12-03-2014, 08:49 PM | #3618 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
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So to celebrate the funcionality of ladder servers and to draw away from the nastiness in Ubers...
In which my return to OU is marked by KEFKA BISH (OU, 12 turns) Normally not one to post forfeits, but with +2 special attack on my side with 3 other pokemon behind it, while all they had was a debilitated Tropius and a Meganium, I think Kefka really showed his stuff here. Super Ace Attorney Level Turnabout (OU) This guy's team was much more solid than mine, if you ask me. Hell mine was built before any ORAS megas were heard of. But I turned it around, it looks like. New Day, New Team. I like it. (OU, 28 turns) The first real match this team has, and its got some stall in it. However i think it did a nice job at breaking it, so kudos! Super Luck. Razor Claw. Crits ensue. (OU, 16 turns) Dear god I love you Lupin. Wherein I handle Choice Scarf. (OU, 21 turns) In which SHADOW (OU, 15 turns) A really potent reminder that dumb luck is a huge part of this game.
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Last edited by Heather; 12-04-2014 at 08:51 PM. |
12-05-2014, 08:20 PM | #3619 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
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He said: Prepare to get FUCED! I said: Lets do this! A true match to the very end!
Metal Claw in: A Reversal of Fortunes
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Last edited by Heather; 12-05-2014 at 09:28 PM. |
12-08-2014, 01:27 AM | #3620 |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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The PS Random Battle ladder scores are starting to spread out more, with the Top 10 now being the small handful of 1800s rather than 1700s, with the Top 100 pretty much being 1700s instead of 1600s, etc. Consequently, I've gone from the 1490s (where I left off the other day) to 1600 just now with relatively little effort. Part of it was definitely the luck of getting solid teams in quite a few matches, but mostly I can say that I felt like I was playing mid-ladder players rather than just-below-the-best players. Putting it simply, 1600 today is as easy to achieve as 1450 would have been several days ago.
Speaking of 1600, here is that game. You can see what I mean with the partial factor of luck here: Choice Scarf Primeape was pretty great against this guy's team, and Dragon Dance Kingdra was a godsend given his Lumineon and his decision to use Rain Dance followed by running away rather than making the best of a bad situation and suicide Ice Beaming me. But see, that final mention ties back in to what I'm saying about these opponents being mid-ladder level: these aren't the sorts of plays I'd expect from what used to be 1800+ on the ladder. I see that Daisy's currently somewhere in the 1700s. Good job, Daisy! Hopefully I can catch up over the next few days. :p ^^;
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12-10-2014, 04:14 PM | #3621 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
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Gather around, my friends, and hear the ballad of a duel disgraced.
So today my school hosted a monotype tournament. A friend of mine spent a month or two on a Flying troll team. His first match, a Normal user. With Two Smeargle. With Moody. And Spore. Two of these, with two imitator ditto behind them. Its hard to piss this friend of mine off over a hame, and this kid did it. No way in hell am I letting that slide. This teambuilding session I ask for today isnt for laddering. Its not for prestige. This is for a friend's dignity.
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12-10-2014, 04:17 PM | #3622 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Mandibuzz with Whirlwind and Taunt clearly.
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12-10-2014, 06:48 PM | #3623 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
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Why we should do away with Smeargle altogether
We banned Moody because of how exploitable it was. The above is ten fucking goddamn times worse. The only hope of beating this that you have is having something that can OHKO Durant (And it probably has a sash anyway). And notice how Acupressure picked up evasion boosts there? If we're going to have Evasion Clause, do away with that part of Acupressure. Because it becomes luck based as hell. "Oh hey, I got really lucky, now I have an advantage over you in that I have a boost you can't get." tl;dr What happened in the above match should not be a thing and if you do it you're a despicable piece of shit and I hate you. Here's proof: I replicate the above match and still manage to bullshit my way to victory despite forgetting Mean Look.
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Last edited by Heather; 12-10-2014 at 07:00 PM. |
12-10-2014, 06:54 PM | #3624 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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You didn't switch out when you could, when the obvious part of the strategy is trapping the opponent with Truant. I'm sorry, but you can't compare a gimmick that requires a very certain set of circumstances to Moody, which was free and required practically nothing.
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12-10-2014, 06:56 PM | #3625 |
Fallen from the Stars
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Or just switch when you get Entrainmented. Suddenly it's not even bad.
Ninja'd :P |
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