04-05-2018, 09:30 AM | #1 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
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Shadow Pokemon, Negative Bond, and Shadow Spray
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Last edited by Nerd Violence; 04-05-2018 at 10:35 AM. |
04-05-2018, 09:45 AM | #2 |
Rainbow Badge
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(I'll just C/P from the other thread then :P)
On Shadows: So, about a discussion started recently on Discord about increasing availability of Shadows or, at least, conversion into Shadow. A "Shadow Spray" has been proposed similar to the current Shiny Spray. Personally, I'm not a fan of this idea. Unlike shinies, there's more to Shadows than justa change of coloration - there's an implicit psyche change behind the process, which draws a line between shadow and non-shadow that isn't there for shiny vs non-shiny. With that in mind, dousing ink on a Pokemon to make them essentially evil is too artificial for my taste. However, I don't think Pokemon should only be allowed to convert from bad to good (i.e. Purification). We should be allowed to explore the other side of this process, because the world of FB doesn't have to be inherently "good". I'd welcome the opportunity to let players dabble with Pokemon conversion into shadow, especially since we already have a system in place to account for this kind of transformation with the current Bond mechanics. Trying to compromise between practicality and RP setting (because something too forcibly tied into RP might put people off if they lack time), I thought of something off the top of my head which, if not ideal, at least could be a good starting point for discussion. In my LMN adventure, TKF guided my character into a cave with an underground lake. The water in that pool was imbued in a Dark Aura that corrupted everyone who drank from it, and most other Pokemon in the vicinity. I'm not sure this is an official LMN location, but it could be the setting we currently lack. To make things practical, we could maybe approach this as the old FB handled Happiness. It was essentially a weekly shop, which lacked flavour but made up for it in convenience, to be perfectly honest. So my idea was: - 5 weeks of drop-off, representing 5 stages of meditation/training inside the Dark Aura Cave. At the end of that period, a Pokemon will be imbued by and control the aura, effectively becoming Shadow. So basically, a 5-week Daycare drop-off with a bit of flavour, which may or may not be RPed if the player wishes. - Week 1: "[Pokemon nickname]'s fears are starting to surface..." - Week 2: "[Pokemon nickname] is behaving erratically under the influence of the cave's aura..." - Week 3: "[Pokemon nickname] is learning to adapt to its newfound violent instincts..." - Week 4: "[Pokemon nickname] somehow feels at ease in this oppressive atmosphere..." - Week 5: "[Pokemon nickname] has learned to control and manifest its inner darkness completely!" . [Pokemon nickname] has become a Shadow [Pokemon species]! Rough around the edges, sure, but hey, it's a start - it's not too demanding on player time, and it's not a simple matter of dumping a spray on a Pokemon. Care to join in on the discussion?
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04-05-2018, 09:46 AM | #3 |
Known Leafeon Enthusiast
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Although I play a morally good character, I would love to see the potential of opening up negative bond. I know a few people play characters that are a little more in the morally grey character, so a few bad eggs having shadow Pokemon would certainly make sense. Personally, I like shadow Pokemon. I like the moves, I like the idea, and I would certainly love the chance to RP with one. (Something I probably would never get the chance to do outside of this idea).
Shadow Pokemon/People with shadow Pokemon don't necessarily have to be "evil" a corrupted Pokemon could be more on the side of angry, especially if their trainer willingly corrupted them. There's no rules set in stone that say a Shadow Pokemon is evil. Quite the contrary, as most Shadows that appeared in the games were corrupted against their will. I for one, am all for the idea.
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04-05-2018, 10:01 AM | #4 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
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With regards to Mask, I'd like to say that I'd be okay with not introducing a Shadow Spray if we can at least open up negative bond in a way that is functionally accessible.
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04-05-2018, 10:30 AM | #5 |
'Munds of fun
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It's been mentioned before that one of the reasons to go against turning pokemon into shadow is because the process of corrupting a pokemon makes some feel uncomfortable and perhaps goes against the core values of FB. To that I ask what exactly feels wrong about it? Is it because it evokes imagery of animal abuse maybe? If so, perhaps there could be a way to do negative bond without going into that route (and to that extent I really like Mask's proposal). I mean, corruption can be done in kid-friendly terms if that's what it takes. I've lost count of how many kid shows have some main character turn dark and edgy under some corrupt influence. What then is keeping us from embracing the idea?
Last edited by Balmund; 04-05-2018 at 10:39 AM. |
04-05-2018, 10:47 AM | #6 |
Known Leafeon Enthusiast
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To add onto what I previously said. There's nothing from an RPG standpoint that says we have to corrupt our Pokemon or even play out corrupting them. Most people do not roleplay turning their Pokemon shiny (and if we're going far reaching with the argument that corruption is bad, forcibly turning a Pokemon shiny should've been another issue.). Most people simply act like their Pokemon was always shiny, why couldn't we do the same with shadow Pokemon?
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04-05-2018, 11:01 AM | #7 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
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At the very least, I want to see more opportunities to find/obtain Shadow pokemon directly. Working with a Shadow Pokemon to purify them would be a good character arc for Mint in my opinion, but she's not the type of person who would do anything to turn a Pokemon to a Shadow-it just doesn't make sense for her to do. So we reach an impasse, because Shadow Pokemon just...don't show up in zones these days. Mint doesn't get an opportunity. That's just my take, though.
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04-05-2018, 11:25 AM | #8 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
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Shadow Pokémon in zones! I support that, too. Presumably as a reward for a more lengthy, difficult adventure, but still.
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04-05-2018, 11:30 AM | #9 |
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I wasn't aware that was a limitation, to be honest. Since we can award Shinies, I always assumed we could award Shadows, but none of my updatees have them listed in their Memakyus that I'm aware.
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04-05-2018, 11:37 AM | #10 |
Naga's Voice
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I hadn't put one on because I hadn't thought they were encounterable. I'll make a note.
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04-05-2018, 11:40 AM | #11 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
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Until very recently, I had a shadow on my Memakyu. I finally took it off because, honestly, I assumed it wasn't encouterable. We can't get them anywhere else, why would we be able to get them in zones?
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04-05-2018, 11:47 AM | #12 |
Naga's Voice
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Also, another thing: since shadowness/purification is so heavily tied into Bond, I can't do something like, have a Shadow Espeon evolving from a Shadow Eevee (which is one of my ideas for the character arc I mentioned above). Like, yeah it doesn't make any mechanical sense, but the concept of something like a Shadow suddenly gaining psychic powers was something I wanted to explore.
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04-05-2018, 11:47 AM | #13 |
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Personally. I like the idea of a shadow spray option for Pokémon that are evil or dark outside of how they feel about their trainer. For instance my zubat is an evil vampire bat that would probably kill people if he wasn’t, ya know, level 11 along with under my character’s watch. It would make sense for him to be a shadow Pokémon. I’d also like to point out that in the bond rules in the candy store there is precedent for Pokémon to be “psychologically stabilized” and be shadow at 0 and above bond. So like a shiny spray it doesn’t have to affect how a Pokémon feels about their trainer unless the player wants it to in story, or maybe even just reflect how they were already playing a Pokémon. Perhaps upon applying a shadow spray you could choose between keeping bond unaffected and having it drop to shadow levels
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04-05-2018, 11:55 AM | #14 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
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> Perhaps upon applying a shadow spray you could choose between keeping bond unaffected and having it drop to shadow levels
I like this.
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04-05-2018, 12:48 PM | #15 |
Droppin' CDs and beats
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Hello! Unfortunately I do not have much time to fully reply to the fullest (I'll try to do so properly later today), but I got an idea I want to suggest:
What about when we write a 250+ word zone post, we can choose whenever to add or subtract Bond? I mean, adding Bond via posts at the moment is to simply have the Pokémon named in said post, no matter how/what is actually RPed (including things that the RPed Pokémon may not like), so we should be able to choose between the two, no? Maybe? |
04-05-2018, 12:51 PM | #16 | |
Sayonara Bye Bye
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Quote:
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04-05-2018, 01:42 PM | #17 |
Insanity
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Hey, so here are my thoughts on the matter. I 100% believe Shadow Pokemon should be readily available, and the idea of a spray makes sense. Not all Shadow Pokemon have to be purely Chaotic Evil, or even Evil. Guess I'm a sucker for how Dark Knight is portrayed in FFXIV, but I think it's a good way to describe how I see Shadow Pokemon. Pokemon who either wield, or have fallen, into the darkness of their hearts for battle. In a sense, Shadow Pokemon could be considered "Berserkers", being more pragmatic fighters who rush and thrive in battle. This can be evidenced by the fever mechanic that came with them in their games. So here are some mechanical ideas in terms of shadow Pokemon and their moves.
All Shadow Pokemon function under the Shadow Typing. The typing deals 1.5x Damage to all types, and takes 2x Damage from all types. Pokemon can use Shadow moves even if they aren't Shadow Pokemon, but they will take recoil for doing so regardless of the move. If a Shadow Move already has innate recoil (i.e Shadow End), that recoil will compound with this recoil. Shadow Pokemon are not hampered by this restriction. Now, Fever. When a Shadow Pokemon hits about half way through their health, they'll enter a sort of battle fervor known as fever for three rounds. In this state, a Shadow Pokemon's offenses are boost by 2x, while their defenses are lowered by 2x. They will also have a high chance of disobeying their trainer while in Fever. Of course, this drawback of disobeying will be alleviated with more of what I'll propose next. We should rework "Negative Bond" into something called "Shadow Bond" or whatever would be a more fitting name. This is the go along with the idea that Shadow Pokemon aren't innately evil and still have the ability to form bonds with their trainer. We can take what we already have for negative bond, and tweak it to fit this system better. "Shadow Bond" will also be more adaptive in terms of helping Shadow Pokemon in battle. Of course, it wont change any of the base mechanics I've proposed above, but it will help compensate for them. All of these changes are to move away from Shadow Pokemon are all Chaotic Evil Pokemon who hate their trainers, and also help streamline Shadow Pokemon in FB.
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04-05-2018, 01:53 PM | #18 |
Weavile Pillow
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I will also point out there is such a thing as Pokemon seeking out this corruption stuff against their trainer's will and becoming Shadow Pokemon that way, or coming across something that creates Shadow Pokemon without a trainer realizing it. (DARK FORCES BEYOND COMPREHENSIONNNNNN)
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04-05-2018, 06:17 PM | #19 |
An actual game I made!
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I'm in favor of there being the option to turn Pokémon Shadow, even if it's not exactly something I see myself making use of. I quite like the idea of being able to dictate in which direction Bond goes with each post, too. In addition, perhaps the Calendar could do something for this as well, maybe offering the option of, instead of the regular Birthday Gummi, an Expired Birthday Gummi which would reduce Bond by 2.
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04-05-2018, 09:54 PM | #20 | |
Droppin' CDs and beats
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Before I start on the actual post I wanted to write...
Quote:
Anyhow *ahem* What I wanted to say was I'm seeing the whole thing as four specific and separate problems:
What are Shadow Pokémon in Fizzytopia? I find that this question's answer would help us decide answering the other two questions, so we can make decisions that can work with our "canon". At the moment (correct me if I'm wrong, because I admittedly do not have that much info), they are more or less like what they are in the games: Pokémon that are modified in some way to become soulless fighting machines. They're a bit out of control as they sometimes don't listen to their trainers and even attack them. They have special shadow moves, have a "hyper mode" where they're even more out of control (but more powerful). The way to get rid of that shadow state is to take care of the Pokémon and Bond with it until it can be purified and turned to normal through purification. The differences Shadow Pokémon in FB has though is the fact that they can still do some basic things that in-game Shadow Pokémon can't (leveling up, evolving, trading), they can even retain their shadow moves after being purified, and their "shadow" look can be seen with the naked and untrained/normal-sensed eye (if you don't count shadow Lugia anyway). So now, it seems like we want to redefine what a shadow Pokémon is. Is it still just a soulless fighting machine created from some freak unknown process, or should it be something different? Well, personally, I really like Lit's FF's dark knight approach (which leans a bit on biggggg5's thoughts), that reminds me of fallen Paladins in DnD and whatnot: a Pokémon that has lost touch with their emotions/soul in any way; whenever it is by going through a terrible experiment, being terribly neglected, or being too consumed on a "negative" emotion or thing (examples could be thirst for power, feelings of revenge, or just being pure evil) that they lose touch of... well, everything else up to their very own nature of being a Pokémon. It would not only fit the Pokémon canon, but it would also make it feel more flexible and fun in terms of RPing; all in all fitting to what I believe is FB's philosophy of having a foot between canon of the Pokémon franchise and having a lot of flexibility for the sake of both realism and artistic/RPing fun. How Shadow Pokémon are acquired? So back in the day, Shadow Pokémon were and still is very rare, only given at special events, and even then... So the main point here is we want to have an easier access to them, since logically, especially with the thoughts mentioned above of what Shadow Pokémon should be, should be a bit more present, no? I definitely agree that they should be a least a little more populous than the current state of them. (In fact, I feel like they should be equal, if not slightly more than shiny Pokémon in terms of rarity.) So how are we supposed to get them now? I'll list out the suggestions we already stated and I'll work on how I feel about them. Shadow Spray: The thing that started it all; an item that makes a pokémon a shadow instantly. (Just add water!) Although it would make a good staff reward-only item like the shiny spray, I have to say that don't like the fact that it is always compared to it. From a game standpoint, Shadow Pokémon goes beyond just the special looks, and actually throws a Pokémon in a whole system of moves and mechanics and whatnot. And from a moral/RP standpoint, while using a shiny spray to a Pokémon against their will is not too bad due to affecting only looks (would giving a haircut to a pet considered bad?), using an item that would corrupt a Pokémon is... quite a terrible thought, especially thinking on what unimaginable thing team Cipher has been doing to turn those Pokémon into Shadow ones. That being said... I feel that the "Shadow Spray" shouldn't be a spray at all, and instead be something that would make more sense and feel less... abusive, unnatural, and against a Pokémon's will. Thankfully I'm off to a good start with my "new" definition of what a Shadow Pokémon is (hey, told you it'll be useful!): if we go by the definition of a "fallen Pokémon", perhaps that the renamed/revamped item be something that the Pokémon which the item will be "used" on attracts it with what the Pokémon desires, then the item tweaks the Pokémon's existing emotions in a way that will turn them into Shadow Pokémon? For example: a Pokémon's most negative trait is his greed, which isn't too bad since the Pokémon is otherwise pretty innocent. Perhaps the item will either takes form or have some aura that will give the impression of that Pokémon that it is very valuable. As the Pokémon approaches/touches the item, said item amplifies that greed to its maximum and subdues all other emotions/parts of the Pokémon's personality, and then boom - Shadow Pokémon! Question is... what should be that item? Is such thing exist in a similar way in other media? Long story short, I want something that's not a spray, but some kind of corrupting Artifact of Doom™ or Sealed "Evil" in a Can™ (...without being in an actual can). Unfortunately I'm drawing a blank with my imagination at the moment (except for the ring of Lord of the Rings lol) so you guys got any ideas? Small note: I agree that the trainer could choose between keeping the current Bond or lower it to -50. Capturing Shadow Pokémon in zones: Hey, if the Pokémon games can do it, why shouldn't we? It would be no surprise that Shadow Pokémon would exist and would be capturable. Perhaps they got thoroughly abused or otherwise lived in dark times somewhere in their lifetime? Got possessed by some kind of ancient evil? Went through the "good" ol' Cypher process? Had a goal that went way too far and lost their way? The choice for the updaters would be limitless! Going through some corrupting process/meditation: Although I kinda like the idea in general (more than the shadow-inducing item), I feel like not only there shouldn't be too many ways to get a shadow Pokémon, but I don't feel like we should have yet another "shop" process or otherwise something new to keep track. That said... it could be used as a way for a Pokémon to become shadow without using the Shadow item or having to lowering Bond (which represents the relationship with a trainer, which although it is part of curing Shadow Pokémon, by my definition of what a Shadow can be, they can still have a good relationship with someone). So I don't know, I still have mixed feelings about it so I need to think it over. Choosing between gaining and removing Bond from zone posts: Hello, idea I came up with! My thought behind it is that this way, a person can represent the gradual loss of trust of the Pokémon towards the trainer character, growth of corruption, etc. However, as mentioned with the corruption process idea, if someone wants a Shadow Pokémon without changing Bond... that wouldn't be the way to go. Bond-removing items: Piggybacking with MM's idea of expired gummis, items that loses bond could be added, including those already existing in the games (that removes friendship). But as my point above, removing bond to achieve Shadow might not be wanted. Turning existing Pokémon into Shadow as zone reward: This time basing myself on GS' idea a bit, how about being able to have a Pokémon turn into a Shadow one as a reward? Perhaps the trainer (or the Pokémon itself) has found the Shadow-inducing item. Maybe the Pokémon was seeking out that corruption. Or the Pokémon went through such a terrible place that it gradually ate its soul... That could be a very good alternative of the corruption process/meditation that isn't at the cost of Bond! ALL THAT SAID: I just want to point out something though: seeing on how we might be getting so many options to lower Bond... it feels like it'll unbalance the fact that they're might be less ways to raise Bond afterwards. Perhaps to counter balance that, we should find a new way to raise Bond too? ....and aw crap I'm running out of time to talk about the other two points (relationship between Bond and Shadow Pokémon, and game-based perks and characteristics of Shadow pokémon). Oh well. I think it's best I talk about these in another post, and post what I just wrote right away for all of you to read! |
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04-07-2018, 12:17 AM | #22 | |||
Sayonara Bye Bye
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Last edited by Nerd Violence; 04-07-2018 at 12:38 AM. |
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04-07-2018, 01:45 AM | #23 |
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I really like most of everything proposed here. The definition of shadow Pokémon all makes sense to me. As for balancing, I like the idea of the chaotic neutral better than the glass cannon. It allows Pokémon to retain the niches of their species without all falling into the same battle style. However I think that defensively Pokémon should retain their type weaknesses. It’s a core part of Pokémon and isn’t something that should be done away with easily. In the games the shadow quilava is just as weak to water as a regular quilava. (I also may be misinterpreting this as this being not being on top of type effectiveness, if so disregard this). Other than that I really like the clarity and zone ideas and would offer to help out with either of those as well (the latter occurring after my time serving at DG ends) Also I brought it up in discord and got my answer but it should be clarified when we write it all down that if you wish you pokemon to remain shadow that you don’t have to add clarity.
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04-07-2018, 03:12 AM | #24 |
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I'm really too tired right now to get into the nitty-gritty details, but I just want to say that I really like Tate's idea for Clarity and their shadow Pokemon zone proposal. Might try to find time to organize my thoughts into more specifics when I've had a little more rest, but I do think it would be a good idea to separate shadow points from bond.
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04-07-2018, 11:44 AM | #25 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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As I've said on Discord, I personally think the Clarity system is good (its very low maintenance and can basically just be member tracked instead of needing a shop) and that the zone is cool. The fact that its more gated is I think a good thing since it'll keep the workload down.
That would probably be where I want to go with that, and personally, I'm a fan of Shadow moves doing neutral damage to everything.
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