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Old 10-10-2018, 10:44 PM   #1
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Gen V sucks. Wait, what?

I've been watching various news and forum-like outlets for leaks on LGPE, and I've seen something that's consistently coming across as bizarre to me - that Gen V sucks, and was a blight on the Pokemon franchise.

That seems like the opposite from my personal experience and what users on UPN shared. Have people soured on Gen V in the eight years since it came out?
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:08 PM   #2
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I stopped playing Pokemon games because of BW. Everyone says B2W2 was better, but I already stopped caring about it by then.

In general, I didn't like the new Pokemon designs (Vanillux and Garbodor come to mind as lazy designs) or the whole hypocrisy of the evil team was trying to free enslaved Pokemon using slave Pokemon.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:24 PM   #3
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Gen 5 was the gen that started to kick off the power creep

While Gen 5 alone didn't spiral the creep into the monstrosity it is now, it certainly helped start it. Because of that, I don't view it very highly.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:19 PM   #4
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This is really surprising.

Even with how disappointing the Gen VI/VII games have been at times, I thought the consensus was Gen IV was the worst generation in Pokemon history. Because everything you two talk about started there:

-bad designs, both in the form of unnecessary evolutions and ugly newcomers like Bastiodon and Vespiqueen
-power creep with better typings, more abusive stat distributions, and stronger spammable attacks like Draco Meteor
-9 new legendaries and 5 mythicals, one of which is supposed to be "GOD"
-bad Pokemon distributions and a bland region

When I dropped out of Pokemon, it was for a technical reason: no GBA emulator existed at the time when RSE came out, and I moved on to other interests. The badness of Diamond and Platinum were enough to keep me out of Pokemon for good, until BW set the hard reset button.

Gen V was the first gen where we had a region that was actually balanced around the physical/special split. Because while the split wasn't a bad idea in theory, GF did not restat all the Gen III and earlier Pokemon that were affected by it. After removing max EVs in Generation III, this led to almost all Kanto, Johto and most Hoenn Pokemon being utterly worthless if they weren't blessed with min/max by chance prior to that. The hyper offense dominant singles meta began its reign of terror in Gen IV, where on average (by my calculation) Pokemon offense in every tier rose by 50%.

Gen V didn't do anything that dramatic.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:58 PM   #5
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I for one never got the Gen V hate. A lot of my favorites come from Gen V- Stunfisk, Heatmor, Cryogonal, Trubbish, Garbodor, Scolipede, Simisage, Klinklang, and Basculin, just off the top of my head, are some of the big highlights IMO.

As for Team Plasma, I'm pretty sure that one of the first of their Grunts you have to battle actually addresses the fact that they use Pokémon themselves. Something like they see it as a necessary evil, and that their intention is to release their own Pokémon once they've gotten the world to do the same. Of course, it really is hypocritical considering Ghetsis's true motives, but the grunts don't know that.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:00 PM   #6
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The main issue with Gen 4 was that it was slow as all balls. Not in terms of progression, but there were actual seconds between movement being forcibly stopped and the encounter beginning.

BW2 are probably among the best Pokemon games we have to date. Yes the region's a bit crap, but it's better than BW1's Unova and frankly I'm yet to see them actually provide a good region for a Pokemon game. Literally, if BW2 had Voltorb Flip and Pokeathlon over musicals and pokewood, then it would almost definitely be the absolute pinnacle of the series. The vast majority of the unpopularity stems mostly from BW1. The bad designs were more prominent because there were no older mons, and the regional design came across a lot worse because it was a basically a straight line with precisely zero backtracking methods short of HM02.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I've been watching various news and forum-like outlets for leaks on LGPE, and I've seen something that's consistently coming across as bizarre to me - that Gen V sucks, and was a blight on the Pokemon franchise.
Not really sure where you're hanging out. On r/pokemon, for example, the current consensus (and it has been this way since around 2015, 2016 at the latest) is that Generation V was shat upon too much and that it's a really rather solid generation, if not the very best of all time. This isn't my opinion. I'm just reporting what r/pokemon's attitude towards Gen 5 is.

Whether it's Reddit or UPN, Serebii or Bulbagarden, one general rule of thumb that I have strongly and reliably observed over the past five years is:
  • when a generation's launchpad titles are 0-3 months old: OMG BEST GAMES EVER!
  • when they're 6-12 months old: BEST GEN / GREAT GEN, but complaints are starting to surface
  • when they're 1-2 years old: lovers 60%, haters 40%
  • when they're 3-4 years old and we're headed into a new generation: man, this gen sucked!
  • when they're 4-6 years old (and we're in the newest generation): WORST. GAMES. EVER!
  • when it's time in the cycle for the then-newest games to start getting shat on, so I guess around the 7-8 year mark for the games we're discussing: y'know ... those games weren't so bad ... in fact ... I'd say they were pretty great!
  • when hatred for the then-newest games reaches its zenith: GAMES WE WERE JUST SHITTING ON A FEW YEARS AGO, WE NOW DECLARE THE BEST. GAMES. EVER! or if not the very best then certainly up there
I seem to be utterly immune to this phenomenon, as do a small percentage of our fandom. But both here on UPN and on other websites, it is abundantly clear to me that most people fall susceptible to this hivemind sine wave of excess love at launch, followed by an ebb, followed by a whiplash into excess hatred, followed by a flow back up to somewhere middling or positive. Easy, easy examples include:
  • Gen 5: when it launched, people were sucking its dick and my objective complaints (e.g. sprites looking really bad when visual depth was ever altered) fell on deaf ears. Fast forward to mid-Gen 6 when I'm telling people they should still check out BW1+BW2 for the story, and people are now shitting on the games more cruelly than I ever did. Fast forward to today and people (at least on r/pokemon) are back to stroking Gen 5's cock.
  • Gen 6: y'all voted in my poll that Gen 6 was THE BEST. GAME. EEEEEEEEEVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR when we were only weeks out from launch. I raised skeptical eyebrows at all of you and you all fired back that you were right and I was wrong. I end up playing a month after you all. I end up falling in love with the game super hard, but for very personal reasons that often times had little overlap with you guys. A year later, you guys had largely abandoned interest in Gen 6 but I still adored it. Five years later, a lot of people (here included) hate on Gen 6 now, but I still adore it. And today, in 2018, as the hatred for the current-gen Gen 7 is starting to crescendo, we're starting to see the renaissance of love for Gen 6 emerge. And here I am having never gotten off of the Gen 6 love train.
  • Gen 7: Hawaii launched and I was sorely underwhelmed. But y'all were like, "SAYONARA, STINKY GEN 6! HELLOOOOOOOOO~, GEN 7 MASTER RACE! =D" I didn't get it. Still don't get it. Gen 7 is just a worse Gen 6 but with better graphics for the human characters. (And even then the human character graphics still suck. They just look lovely for looking so close to the anime.) Anyway. I've never gotten off the Gen 7 hate train not impressed train, but now I'm starting to feel crowded as y'all take your seats next to me. All aboard~! 'Cause now it's in vogue to shit on Gen 7 for its tiny dex, samey terrain, poor writing, hand holding, Rotom Dex ... okay, y'know, those last two, it's always been popular to hate on.
Right now r/pokemon is super hostile towards Gen 7, Gen 6 is experiencing a renaissance of love, and Gen 8 is getting a lot of gushy fan excitement from fans who are hoping for the best. We were in this exact same spot two short years ago, only decrease all the number values by 1.


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That seems like the opposite from my personal experience and what users on UPN shared. Have people soured on Gen V in the eight years since it came out?
Okay, so ... To be fair, despite all the above I just said, UPN has always been very different from TheRestOfTheInternet when it comes to Gen 5. And that's largely owed to 1) our age / our crazy veteran status with the franchise, and 2) our tastes / the fact that we as a community, overall, tend to place a much greater value on story than other communities.
UPN: we were always pretty kind to Gen 5. Even when the Internet Hate Machine was in full force for Gen 5 a few years back, the worst you really ever saw here was "the anime sucked" or "I wish they would have saved Gen 5 for the 3DS." That latter sort of statement belies our community's attitude towards Gen 5: we typically like(d) it, and we typically wish(ed) its strong story -- err, strong story relative to a pile of weak stories by a development team not known for their strength in writing -- could have been coupled to better graphics rather than being condemned to a revision patch of a previous generation that had come out some four years prior. UPN has always been pretty vocal about the plot, the reusable TMs, and a host of the new creature designs. (I can defend/explain that last one if I have to. I started to, and it derailed the post.)

Other Communities: a lot of their up-front love for Gen 5 was the graphics. Which I have never understood , but whatever! Doesn't matter. A lot of, lot of, lot of kids loved Gen 5 because it was the newest, shiniest toy on the playground. And the thing, of course, is ... the graphics haven't held up. How could they have? They were immediately supplanted, overnight, by Gen 6's on the 3DS. And then Gen 7 came along and supplanted those, leaving Gen 5 high and dry. What else did other communities care a lot more about with Gen 5? The meta / Competitive battling. UPN cares a lot less about this, but even where it does care (me, Daisy, Emi ...), the problem with loving a meta is metas tend to die / get forced into retirement once a new main series game comes out. No one's still playing Gen 5 OU right now. Nor do they care to. Everyone's playing Gen 7.
So like ... what for us is a lot of love attached to permanent things, things that aren't ever going away no matter how much time passes (like story or creature designs), what a lot of the Gen 5 lovers in 2011 cared about, like the graphics and the gameplay, have all been thoroughly supplanted by the later games in the series. Why play ugly Gen 5 with its horrid DS graphics when you could be playing shiny SMUSUM with its radiant 3DS graphics? Why play through Gen 5 for the story (they say) when you could just watch the story on YouTube? If I wanted a story, I'd buy a book!, they say. They want a game, not an experience. Gen 5 still has yucky HMs and the need for HM slaves. Gen 5 is missing so many of our new favorite creatures from Gens 6 and 7. Gen 5 has no one for you to play online with now.

Getting sleepy. (Been up since 4:30am.) Going to wrap this one up here.

tl;dr
1) I disagree that the Internet is hating on Gen 5 right now. I think you visit weird places.
2) These things come in cycles. Have provably done so the last three generation launches.
3) UPN is different enough from other communities that, in my estimation, we have always been kinder to Gen 5 than the rest of the Internet has been.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:02 AM   #8
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I swear to god if I hear one more person call garbodor a lazy design when fucking muk, voltorb, electrode, et al have existed from the get go I will go on a worldwide murder spree in an insatiable blood rage.
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:47 PM   #9
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I swear to god if I hear one more person call garbodor a lazy design when fucking muk, voltorb, electrode, et al have existed from the get go I will go on a worldwide murder spree in an insatiable blood rage.
I've always thought Garbodor's design was pretty cool. I like the implication that the Trubbish trash bag burst open during evolution, I like the use of pipes as fingers it can shoot sludge out of... And the anime really showed off how well it could work with that design in battle, with its extendable arms, letting it kick ass with Double Slap of all things. Just as I think Trubbish is adorable, I think Garbodor is badass.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:36 PM   #10
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I swear to god if I hear one more person call garbodor a lazy design when fucking muk, voltorb, electrode, et al have existed from the get go I will go on a worldwide murder spree in an insatiable blood rage.
I will fight you on this.

Grimer/Muk is based on Slimes from the fantasy tabletop games (like D&D). It's really basic, but it's Generation 1 where most things are pretty basic. And despite that, Muk still looks cool. It looks like it's a big pile of slime that struggles to pick itself up, but has a lot of weight to it when it does.

Voltorb/Electrode have more thought put into them as they are Pokemon's version of Mimics from fantasy tabletop games. As items in the world are depicted as Pokeballs, Voltorb and Electrode are designed as Pokemon that can ambush you.

In today's day, sure it's not a big deal. But if you played Red/Blue when it was new and you were lost in the Power Plant with a bruised team in need of a Potion and you find an item ball only to instead by surprised by a bomb boi. Then it either explodes and wrecks a spot on your team or you're left with paranoia over future items you might pick up here. It's a brilliant design.

Was there a garbage pick up in Gen5 that might become a Garbador that ambushes you? Maybe it's later in the game than I got, but I don't think I ever heard of it. Do you rummage through a trash can and get attacked by Trubbish?

And Garbador looks like it wants you to put it down and end it's pain of being made of trash in every sense.
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:53 PM   #11
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Grimer and Muk are no less lazy design than Garbodor might be. But that's not really the point of this thread.

I always thought UPN had a more pro-Gen V outlook than most of the community personally. I know I loved B2W2 immensely.
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Old 10-13-2018, 04:19 PM   #12
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I will fight you on this.

Grimer/Muk is based on Slimes from the fantasy tabletop games (like D&D). It's really basic, but it's Generation 1 where most things are pretty basic. And despite that, Muk still looks cool. It looks like it's a big pile of slime that struggles to pick itself up, but has a lot of weight to it when it does.
If it's meant to be like a DnD slime, which i doubt Japan has that much awareness of western tabletop culture, especially back in the 90s, that still makes it pretty fucking uninspired. The Alolans aren't much better about it, either.

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Voltorb/Electrode have more thought put into them as they are Pokemon's version of Mimics from fantasy tabletop games. As items in the world are depicted as Pokeballs, Voltorb and Electrode are designed as Pokemon that can ambush you.

In today's day, sure it's not a big deal. But if you played Red/Blue when it was new and you were lost in the Power Plant with a bruised team in need of a Potion and you find an item ball only to instead by surprised by a bomb boi. Then it either explodes and wrecks a spot on your team or you're left with paranoia over future items you might pick up here. It's a brilliant design.
A "brilliant" (read: mediocre) design that stopped being even remotely good the moment item balls could be rendered with enough resolution to see the poke ball button, making future traps (which even appeared in ORAS, to my immense distatste) purely a developer fuck you than an actually clever, plausible trap from back when the item ball sprite was also their party sprite.

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And Garbador looks like it wants you to put it down and end it's pain of being made of trash in every sense.
No it looks like its angry at the legions of people who somehow think "sludge that gets bigger after a while" is somehow more inspired and effortful that the idea of a garbage bag that grew enough for the bottom to explode. At Muk's best, they're equals.
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:02 PM   #13
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If it's meant to be like a DnD slime, which i doubt Japan has that much awareness of western tabletop culture, especially back in the 90s, that still makes it pretty fucking uninspired. The Alolans aren't much better about it, either.
While it's certainly true that DnD, and its Oozes by extension, weren't all that popular in Japan at the time, it isn't without source material: the RPG series Dragon Quest was popular in Japan at the time (and has even been consistently competitive with Final Fantasy over there despite how little attention it got in the West), and that series' most recognizable monster is their take on the slime. This is probably why grimer has always had that goofy looking smile. In return, muk's "this is definitely a dangerous creature you should keep your distance from"-type scowl and the whole pollution deal serve to justify its existence and separate it from the source material enough to keep Square off their backs about it. That's just my speculation on the matter, though.

The Alolan variants, I feel, never had the same intention of imitating something else, though, given how little attention the original line had gotten over the years (especially after the decline of SubPunch in comp). Without those shacles, they were free to do a whole new thing with them, and they pulled that off fairly well with them, given the base material.

Back on topic, I had always liked Gen. 5 in principle, especially in regards to BW's story. Once I got to actually put things into practice, though, Black 2 proved to be an enjoyable enough experience for me that I actually bothered to replay it right after finishing it for the first time. Heck, my first time taking on Iris was the most fun I've had with a boss fight in a long while at that point! Most of the complaints I've seen regarding Gen. 5 had to do with the new pokemon roster, though, and while I don't agree with most of those complaints myself, I do feel like GF's more recent approach of quality over quantity has served that aspect of the series better in recent years.
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:45 PM   #14
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1st Edition DND was insanely popular and influential. Zelda, FF, Pokemon are directly based on its mechanics. LNs of the time were based on role play sessions of D&D like Lodoss War and Slayers.

Ganon? He's a pig orc ripped straight from the 1st Edition Monster Manual. Orcs stopped looking like pigs in 2nd Edition+ but that perception persisted in Japan, and the connection to D&D was lost. The Japanese depiction of an elf - Zelda, Link, Deedlit, Lafiel - is also based on 1st edition D&D.

It isn't just D&D either, all the nerdy tabletop/P&P RPG stuff was popular with otaku in Japan during the '80s. Cthulu Mythos wasn't excused either, which is why we have IP like Nyaruko and Demonbane.

I haven't seen many people advocate what Loki is saying, but it's an easily defended point. GameFreak evolved out of a gaming magazine and Pokemon copies D&D, FF and DQ in ton of other ways, so why not?

Overlord is based on 5th Edition D&D btw, to reflect that D&D has never lost a presence in Japan even after derived IP became popular in their own right.
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:57 PM   #15
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TL;DW: D&D has been popular in Japan since at least the 80s.
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:35 PM   #16
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Gen 5 has N. He owned a lot of the time...for a villain.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:12 AM   #17
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Think I've said this before but my take is that every gen is better than the last. Gen 3 (and 4 to an extent) have the most nostalgic value to me but I truly believe the order is 7>6>5>4>3>2>1. Major improvements to the series in every gen.
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Old 10-14-2018, 06:54 PM   #18
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Think I've said this before but my take is that every gen is better than the last. Gen 3 (and 4 to an extent) have the most nostalgic value to me but I truly believe the order is 7>6>5>4>3>2>1. Major improvements to the series in every gen.
Gen 8 in Pokemon is going to be on this list soon, too.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:18 PM   #19
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Gen 8's improvement is going to be either getting rid of rotom Dex or at least giving us the option to turn off Unwanted Advice Mode, and nothing else.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:39 PM   #20
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Gen 8's improvement is going to be either getting rid of rotom Dex or at least giving us the option to turn off Unwanted Advice Mode, and nothing else.
Rotom Dex is brilliant, both in concept and execution. I hope they don't make it an Alola-only thing. I never actively thought about the Pokedex when playing but it does seem bizarrely anachronistic, barring the Gen 2 PokeGear. Rotom Dex is an ingenious solution to that and a number of other problems.

As for the unwanted advice, that's not a problem of Rotom specifically, but of GF's general puerile plan for the game experience. From what I've seen of LGPE, GF is more likely to double down than tone it down.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:50 AM   #21
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LGPE is meant to be incredibly simplified compared to regular main series.

GameFreak could have replaced every trainer tips sign with a rotom's unwanted advice bit and just left the rest of the rotom interaction and I would have been happy. It was the idea of the late game bringing in a new source of tutorials (tutorials that activate in late game are already an awful idea) that disabled your minimap and couldn't ever be turned off that pissed me off, especially since rotom burns all the unique "advice" very quickly to the point that even if all his gibberish was useful (it isn't), it would only be so for about 15 minutes at best.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:32 AM   #22
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Gens 5, 6, and 7 all have similar problems for me- they're really fun and magical seeming on their first playthrough or two, but after that the problems of hand-holding/linearity/excessive cutscenes shine through and leave a bad taste in my mouth. Both ends of that spectrum have gotten ramped up slightly each gen. I think of the three Gen 6 is probably the happy medium because it's got just a little less in the way of gameplay-stopping cutscenes when compared to Gen 5 (trying to get through the first 3 gyms of BW2 is utter torture) or Gen 7 (cutscene every 10 minutes). It wasn't as jaw-dropping to me as Gen 7 was on the first playthrough, but it still feels like a uniquely "modern" experience I couldnt really replicate by picking up Emerald for the thousandth time and at least for me the handholding aspects are less noticeable than Gen 7 or even Gen 5.
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Old 10-15-2018, 03:46 PM   #23
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Gen 7 > all gens
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:22 AM   #24
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Maybe I am in the minority for this, but I vastly prefer the 2D sprite-based pokemon style to the 3D of the past 2 generations. The terrain looks nice in 3D, I’ll admit, but the trainers, pokemon, and moves are all off to me. The trainer models, to put it simply, are hideous. ORAS takes the cake for this with Wally’s head being at least 60% of the size of the rest of his body. SuMo was a noticeable improvement, but even still the sprite characters are far more pleasing to the eye for me. Maybe it’s just nostalgia from all the Gen 3/4/5 I played, but I don’t need super expressive 3D faces, and if anything Hau holding the same exaggerated expression for 10 seconds makes the experience worse. Pokemon models and moves don’t have as much gripe with, but I still prefer the 2D.

I do, however, love the improvements to movepools and moves in general in later generations. Some pokemon in RSE are nigh unusable just because of their typing and movepool but have actual worth in ORAS. Beautifly, for example, is stuck with Silver Wind (5 PP, 60 BP) and Aerial Ace (60 BP) as its highest BP STAB moves in RSE. While it’s still stuck with Aerial Ace/Air Cutter in ORAS, it now gets Bug Buzz, higher SpAtk, and a more powerful Giga Drain. Beautifly is usable in RSE (using one right now) but it is so much better in ORAS. Still not a fan of GF producing pokemon that look cool but have no hope of ever being good (Alolan Sandslash ;-;) but I have to agree that art style aside for myself (and the hand-holding, can’t forget that) pretty much every aspect of later generations is wholly better.
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