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Old 07-16-2017, 05:58 AM   #3851
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Sweeney you do understand that Russia is actively supporting a regime which used Sarin on it's own populace under the guise of killing one or two rebels, right? Assad should be facing numerous counts of war crime charges and yet Putin seems to think he is the right guy to keep in power in an already wildly destabilised region. I think Russia present a threat to the world at large.

Plus you completely ignored the fact that they frequently infringe on other countries sovereign borders. I remember somewhat recently there was a spate of Russian spy planes flying over British airspace without any sort of clearance. Done often enough this can easily be considered an intent to incite hostilities or declare war. It seems much more to me like you're using Russia as a means of smacking the mainstream media over the head because you have some gripe at them.

Not to mention the fact "it's their business" or "it's their values" is a shite excuse for allowing violations against basic human rights. Just because I declare it's my personal moral code that I murder and eat numerous people doesn't mean I have a strong defence against murder. I know that's an extreme of the argument, but you surely have to see my point there. Just because their social values haven't evolved past the '70s standards of hyper violence against anything considered "abnormal" doesn't mean it's okay for them to do it.
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:25 PM   #3852
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I'm sorry Deo but I think you were a little out of line on this last page. You do have a tendency to lose your temper when confronted with something you see as wrong, and I think this is one of those times. It's not like Dopple, McSweeney, and Mozz are throwing logic out the window.

I mean, my feelings on Trump and Russia are lukewarm at best. I think it's an important question, but I also think that there's a desire to see Trump confirmed to be an illegitimate President. Which, independently of Russian collusion, he is not.

Undermine faith in Republican legislature? You can do that easier than chasing sketchy conspiracies that will lead to nothing but plausible deniability and "But Trump's *emails!*" Simply report on the actual facts of what Trump is doing and he will undermine everyone's faith in Republican government by 2018.

If people can't trust the media, and right now I think we really shouldn't trust them to present events accurately, it really hurts national discourse in a big way.
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:27 PM   #3854
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You have no idea how much it irks me when I tell people "MINNESOTA SUCKS HARD" and people in San Francisco think I'm making stuff up because they want to follow the narrative that it's a liberal state in what is otherwise a block of conservatives. The racism and xenophobia far, far exceeds what I was exposed to in Alabama.

I have to carry my license on me at all times - not a joke - because people call the police on you if you leave your house. They assume all other form of ID is fake. One and a half weeks ago, the police tailed me on a country highway, literally following me on the road at 5 mph because I was jogging at 6 mph, because I ran over a hill, saw police lights, and about faced.

I asked one of my supervisors at Wal-Mart, who was a former cop, why Minnesota is so reactionary like that. "Minnesota is one of the most dangerous states in the US". Whaaat?
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Old 07-18-2017, 11:11 AM   #3855
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You have no idea how much it irks me when I tell people "MINNESOTA SUCKS HARD" and people in San Francisco think I'm making stuff up because they want to follow the narrative that it's a liberal state in what is otherwise a block of conservatives. The racism and xenophobia far, far exceeds what I was exposed to in Alabama.

I have to carry my license on me at all times - not a joke - because people call the police on you if you leave your house. They assume all other form of ID is fake. One and a half weeks ago, the police tailed me on a country highway, literally following me on the road at 5 mph because I was jogging at 6 mph, because I ran over a hill, saw police lights, and about faced.

I asked one of my supervisors at Wal-Mart, who was a former cop, why Minnesota is so reactionary like that. "Minnesota is one of the most dangerous states in the US". Whaaat?
Minnesota's Somali population is beginning to bite them in the ass. GLGLGL
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:09 PM   #3856
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that's not a racist statement at all
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:07 PM   #3857
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that's not a racist statement at all
everyone is equal, except the more equal ones, they're super equal
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Old 07-18-2017, 11:09 PM   #3858
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:39 AM   #3859
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Minnesota's Somali population is beginning to bite them in the ass. GLGLGL
Do you think you could clarify your position? The Somali population of Minnesota is fairly well integrated by now. A great deal of them are children of immigrants who grew up as full-blooded Americans, went to American schools, hold American ideals, speak perfect English, etc.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:41 AM   #3860
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everyone is equal, except the more equal ones, they're super equal
You associated Minnesota being dangerous explicitly with its population of Somali immigrants.

That's fucking racist.

You are a fucking racist, or you're making a racist joke for "top kek" which still makes you a fucking racist.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:06 AM   #3861
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Mozz, it would be really nice if you didn't blurt out racist comments just for the sake of laughs (or if you meant them seriously, shame on you.), it looks really stupid. Even if you don't intend it to be taken seriously, this is a serious debate forum and such things don't have a place here.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:02 AM   #3862
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You associated Minnesota being dangerous explicitly with its population of Somali immigrants.
That's the sentiment around here I was trying to convey, although substitute "somali" for "non-white" and you're good. I think the native americans in the area are more subject to direct racism because there's a lot more of them, in closer proximity to the white population, and they're almost universally impoverished. I don't think that applies to Minneapolis, but I wouldn't be surprised if the racism toward blacks is higher there due to their higher numbers.

Xenophobia more accurately applies to anyone else. I've had the cops called in me when I visited one of the rural towns. I went into the town square and looked around, and the sheriff who accosted me told me he received three calls about a hoodlum

-banging on the bank glass, as if trying to break it (looking in the window)
-furiously trying to break into cars
-looking like he was carrying a handgun (smartphone)

It's almost hilarious, except I was humiliated and angered. The #2 point was particularly obnoxious because the car I was "breaking in to" was my own, which I stepped out of, and was the only car in the square because I parked on a Sunday. How was I supposed to know that the 3-4 bars that are the main attraction were closed "in observance"?

Even as the sheriff laughed off the incident, he still tailed me for 10 miles outside of town.

Either way, I can't emphasize this enough. Minnesota is basically Texas of the north. Minneapolis/St. Paul are blue by virtue of the minorities, but urban whites tend to be young conservatives - this is the state that voted for Marco Rubio. And everywhere outside of the Twin Cities is very redneck.

I've been training super hard so I can get out of this hellhole by the end of August. I'm near my limits of the craziness.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:22 AM   #3863
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It's clear from your posts, Doppel, that you've been the victim of racial prejudice while in Minnesota. However, what's not entirely clear to me is how you feel towards those who were prejudicial towards you. For the sake of the discussion: do you feel that their prejudices were justified/warranted? Or do you feel as though they were unjustified/unwarranted?

From what I can tell, it sounds like you're expressing:
  • "They shouldn't have been racist towards me! I'm Filipino!"
  • "But I can totally understand where they're coming from, because holy shit these Somalis ...! "
Is that the case? Are you bemoaning a bad situation while not condemning those caught up in it? (I.e. are you unhappy to live in Minnesota because of the systemic racism that negatively impacts you but at the same exact time you don't blame the white Minnesotans for their attitudes? I.e. you believe they are in the right to be prejudicial towards the Somali population in Minnesota?) Or are you upset with both the living situation and the racist whites' racism towards non-white ethnicities?

I think we can all agree that generalizations tend to be bad and that ethnic generalizations are no exception. But I'd appreciate some clarity here regarding your views, specifically, on the white Minnesotans' prejudice towards people with darker skin. Is it a case of "I can't say I blame 'em but fuck if I'm going to put up with it for much longer "? (That's what it sounds like it is.) Or is it a case of "Not only can't I stand it any longer, but I also blame them for their views."
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:59 AM   #3864
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I don't think it's racism because I look white, especially at a distance. Nobody would doubt me if I said I'm a slav. In the rural town incident, there was no way the grandmas who called the police on me could tell I what I was from distance - from my discussions with my co-workers who live in the area, it's closer to xenophobia, because "everyone knows everyone - and they didn't know who you were".

Hence why I call it "xenophobia". The same applies to when I was tailed while running in the countryside - the police deemed that "eccentric behaviour" and so tailed me to investigate.

I think it's totally inappropriate toward anyone. It bothered me in 2015/2016 before the police incidents happened, which were all this year. The city I live in is built on exploiting the poor and keeping them in perpetual poverty - mobile home parks and low income apartments are physically located miles away from the schools, requiring poor people to own and maintain cars because the bus system is understaffed. In between those areas and civilization are vast tracks of land within the city limits and outside of it deliberately left undeveloped (and unmaintained) by the rich, held in trust with the federal government, for tax break purposes. A lot of this land was taken from the natives in the 19th Century and there is heavy resistance from the local government to give it back, because the land is taxable, while tribal owned land is not.

It bothers me that the Native American communities have English names, but the predominantly white cities have Native American names. The culture of drinking cheap booze and slap on the wrist for DUIs are a never ending source of indignation. The nepotism, like letting a bunch of kids sexually harass a waitress and leave without paying at Perkins because one was the manager's son, is disgusting.

Almost all the adult women I know have been divorced, and the primary reason was spousal abuse. Beating your wife is like ice fishing - everyone does it! It's sickening.

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Is that the case? Are you bemoaning a bad situation while not condemning those caught up in it? (I.e. are you unhappy to live in Minnesota because of the systemic racism that negatively impacts you but at the same exact time you don't blame the white Minnesotans for their attitudes? I.e. you believe they are in the right to be prejudicial towards the Somali population in Minnesota?) Or are you upset with both the living situation and the racist whites' racism towards non-white ethnicities?
Minnesota has low murder rate, relative to other states with this population size. Low density helps, so most violent crime happens in the Twin Cities. The most common crime is petty theft, then grand theft, then rape. Rape is going to be high in any area that suffers from severe winter, because during the winter, most people watch TV, drink beer, and bang.

Compared to others, I am quite privileged. I was still frustrated with a lot of the systemic problems of this area and wanted to leave, but it was quite tolerable because all I did was work and barely left my apartment. The police activity which scaled up in 2017 (is it Trump?) gave me a taste of what victims of discrimination go through on a daily basis, and it's definitely fanned the flame of wanting me to get out of here. It started to happen once I left my apartment and went to places where there were people.

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I think we can all agree that generalizations tend to be bad and that ethnic generalizations are no exception. But I'd appreciate some clarity here regarding your views, specifically, on the white Minnesotans' prejudice towards people with darker skin. Is it a case of "I can't say I blame 'em but fuck if I'm going to put up with it for much longer "? (That's what it sounds like it is.) Or is it a case of "Not only can't I stand it any longer, but I also blame them for their views."
Again it's more xenophobia than racism exactly. I think how well you speak English is a bigger determination on how you're treated than how you look. If your speech is accentless Midwestern, you tend to be fine. I generally have no problems talking like a Californian. But I have observed ESLs be treated like they're idiots, and the same applies to folks who have strong Canadian accents (anyone rural) or sound like they're from the movie Fargo (older folks). The latter tends to go hand in hand with a slow, deliberate speech, and slow speech is perceived as symptomatic of slow thinking.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:20 PM   #3865
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The statement was not for "lulz". I don't believe that America should be taking in tens of thousands of Somalis.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:56 PM   #3866
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ok but like, if France or Spain or any European country was under civil war and its citizens were seeking refuge in the US would you be down?
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:14 PM   #3867
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The statement was not for "lulz". I don't believe that America should be taking in tens of thousands of Somalis.
I believe that the government has a responsibility to offer asylum to refugees regardless of who they are, though. If refugees really are coming to the US and acting violently, which I honestly doubt they are, I would rather take a look at the systems that we use to process the refugees than stop taking in refugees or take in only specific refugees who are squeaky clean and wealthy.

Honestly Mozz I think your only valid argument is that Somalis make worse refugees in America than other countries' refugees. And that's only because they speak worse English and aren't white, so they're rejected by xenophobic Americans. That can change, though, if an attitude of tolerance and acceptance spreads. If refugees feel more welcomed, I firmly believe they'll be a lot less likely to commit crimes.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:16 PM   #3868
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The statement was not for "lulz". I don't believe that America should be taking in tens of thousands of Somalis.
Of course. It's only okay when we take in hundreds of thousands Englishmen. Or Canadians. Or Germans. Or Irishmen. Or Frenchmen.

Y'know.

White people.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:52 PM   #3869
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I don't like Mozz's implication that Somalians are inherently bad immigrants, but I agree that tens of thousands of them shouldn't be let in if they offer no discernible skills to the country. A successful immigration policy should target highly skilled immigrants regardless of what race they are, so I would be happier if they targeted eg highly educated Nigerians. The reason why unskilled Irishmen etc. were allowed to immigrate in the past and were an asset is because the economy revolved around farming, which didn't require any academic education, and the country badly needed to be filled up. That's why British settlers were offered free land if they emigrated to North America. The country doesn't need filling up anymore. Taking in unskilled refugees is just "being nice" at this point, and I admittedly have a selfish mindset for not wanting to take them in just because they're stuck in a horrible situation, but I'm more concerned with making my own country the best it can be rather than helping out others. Yes it's true, you can take in unskilled refugees and get lucky if they turn out to be an NBA superstar or work hard and build their own business, but you can also get unlucky and they turn out to be a rapist on welfare. You improve your luck greatly if you only take in skilled immigrants.

To answer Toyo's question if I'd be okay with taking in French, Spanish immigrants if their country were in a civil war (even though he asked Mozz and not me): no, not if they had no skills.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:57 PM   #3870
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Those are numbers about the present day numbers of [insert country here]-born immigrants in America, js.
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:06 PM   #3871
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My point still stands. On what basis are they able to successfully immigrate? It's not because they're white, it's because they have skills. A successful immigration policy will automatically be biased toward letting in more people from developed countries since it's more likely that they'll be educated.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:44 PM   #3872
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I don't like Mozz's implication that Somalians are inherently bad immigrants, but I agree that tens of thousands of them shouldn't be let in if they offer no discernible skills to the country. A successful immigration policy should target highly skilled immigrants regardless of what race they are, so I would be happier if they targeted eg highly educated Nigerians. The reason why unskilled Irishmen etc. were allowed to immigrate in the past and were an asset is because the economy revolved around farming, which didn't require any academic education, and the country badly needed to be filled up. That's why British settlers were offered free land if they emigrated to North America. The country doesn't need filling up anymore. Taking in unskilled refugees is just "being nice" at this point, and I admittedly have a selfish mindset for not wanting to take them in just because they're stuck in a horrible situation, but I'm more concerned with making my own country the best it can be rather than helping out others. Yes it's true, you can take in unskilled refugees and get lucky if they turn out to be an NBA superstar or work hard and build their own business, but you can also get unlucky and they turn out to be a rapist on welfare. You improve your luck greatly if you only take in skilled immigrants.

To answer Toyo's question if I'd be okay with taking in French, Spanish immigrants if their country were in a civil war (even though he asked Mozz and not me): no, not if they had no skills.
This is pretty solid. The motto of "invade the world, invite the world", which has been done by presidents of both parties, is a death sentence for a prosperous country. I would have no problem setting a quota of, say, 500k immigrants a year, and bringing in the best from a variety of countries. The Somalians, much like the "Syrian" refugees plaguing Europe, are low IQ, low skill, low education, generally low upside for the host population.

If you are looking for refugees to bring in, how about the white South African farmers who had their land stolen by the government. There's a group that has shown the ability to own their own lot in life, but I digress.

The government of any nation should be beholden first and foremost to its own people, and any decision made should have direct benefit to its citizens.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:07 PM   #3873
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If you are looking for refugees to bring in, how about the white South African farmers who had their land stolen by the government. There's a group that has shown the ability to own their own lot in life, but I digress.
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the white South African farmers
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white South African farmers
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:33 PM   #3874
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If they can prove they have legitimate claim to refugee/asylum status and are willing to leave their homes to move to an unfamiliar country, they are just as (if not more) able to contact a refugee organization and begin proceedings.

But Mozz is now banned for a month from debate, so Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:37 PM   #3875
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ty based Jer

(to be clear I'm not against taking in white refugees it's just incredibly rich that Mozz thinks immigrants need to be held to some arbitrary standards that most of these south african farmers wouldnt adhere to but is perfectly fine with them as long as they're white)
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