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Old 09-28-2010, 01:22 AM   #1251
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It was a hilarious scene, but I hated how Nagisa put an understating, childish spin on it. Way to hammer in (lol?) the loli feel, you lusty wench. >(
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:49 AM   #1252
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HOLY SHIT. Okay, I definitely underestimated Clannad After Story. Holy shit.

So, I'm through Episode 17. (Two word reference point: five years.) And I've gotta say, I totally feared that what would happen in Episode 16 would happen, but I didn't expect it would happen. I thought that they were just teasing us, trying to scare us a bit for good dramatic effect. I could have sworn that I even read in Mcsweeney's spoiler boxes that:
Spoiler: show
Nagisa was alive when Tomoya and Uchio were in the hospital
, and so I felt like I had some sort of insurance that no matter what I was watching unfold ominously in episodes 14 and 15, that the worst would not come to pass.

And yet it did. Oh, did it ever. Holy shit, talk about majorly depressing.

To think, now, that I have to compound with this the spoiler which Mcsweeney told me about ... I'm just not sure I could go on, in Tomoya's shoes. I mean, man: given what Mcsweeney said, this sounds like it's seriously heading towards slit wrists territory. Damn.

Besides:
Spoiler: show
Ushio is just too cute to die. And Tomoya's only JUST NOW gotten back into her life! This is just too cruel! ;______;


But yeah. Episode 18 onward today. Probably will finish the show, but we'll see.
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:35 AM   #1253
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Spoiler: show
I liked what happened after Nagisa kicked the bucket most of all out of the entire Clannad franchise thus far (anime, After Story, haven't seen Tomoyo After yet). You are rapidly approaching BPK's ideal ending, and mine as well. But unlike in some mathematics problems, as you approach 18, a limit does exist.

There was some interesting stuffs in 19 though...good for an epilogue IMV, not as a continuation. -_-
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:28 AM   #1254
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Isn't Tomoyo After the one bonus episode which aired the summer following the end of Clannad, i.e. S1?
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Old 09-28-2010, 10:25 AM   #1255
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The bonus episodes that was after the first season was what happens in Tomoyo's path. I guess Kyoto wanted people to get a taste of what every character's path is like.

Also, yes, Ushio's path made me baw like a bitch.
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Old 09-28-2010, 12:24 PM   #1256
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I finished Daibanchou-Big Bang Age-. Well, one route atleast. I liked the characters (except the main character) and the gameplay was kinda fun, but everything else was sorta lame. The story was typical "the gates of hell is about to open and a group of humans has to stop it from destroying the earth." I did like the gameplay a bit though. It gave more leeway with the characters than Rance did, so I could pump time into my favorite characters and they'd be badass, rather than have level limits. Also, like I stated earlier, I liked the character cast. So overall, Daibanchou was half in half for me. I didn't care at all for the story, and the main character was really lame and cliche, while I liked the gameplay and most of the other characters. I might try for the other route later.

Oh, as far as special features go. Unlike Rance, this game actually has a CG gallery and music gallery! It also has a check list of all the character clears you've gotten. I just wish it has the section where you could talk to the Alice Soft twins....

I'm currently rewatching CCS, but I'm going slowly on that. I might start playing Gilligan's Island if I feel like it. It's already patched and installed.

EDIT: Right after season 2 ended, Kyoto decides to announce a K-On movie. Talk about milking a franchise. By the time K-On's popularity wears off, all the characters will have pancake titties.

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Old 09-28-2010, 02:59 PM   #1257
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I just finished Episode 18. Thoughts ...

That was the best series finale I've seen maybe ever! ........... wait, whaddya mean it's not the series finale? Whaddya mean she, .... wait, what? What did you say? Wha--

I am CRUSHED ALREADY, knowing what you've said in the spoiler tags, Mcsweeney. Absolutely CRUSHED. This is just terrible. ;_________;

The way episode 18 ends, it's really, really like a genuine series finale. So much climactic character development occurs, and the character learns the most important lesson he's learned yet, etc etc. I mean, ....... it played out like a series finale episode. Even if what was to follow was happy, I'd still think it unnecessary. I'd think it all epilogue stuff.

But it's not all happy. It's goddamn ridiculously tragic. And I've got to plow through and watch it. Damn. This is going to be bad.

How could you do this to me, Clannad!? ;_____; What was Season 1 even for!? ;________________;
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:08 PM   #1258
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I mean, seriously ... was this not good enough for them?

Spoiler: show
Were they not satisfied with the "tragic but beautifully happy reunion" plot they'd set up?







Was this simply NOT TEARJERKINGLY POWERFUL ENOUGH for them!?
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:15 PM   #1259
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Yes, that is by far the most powerful scene in the whole show and SHOULD have ended there.
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:16 PM   #1260
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Well, you ought to know, Mcsweeney, that Wikipedia's Wiki Nazis apparently do not value your opinion. That, or you fall under their Nazi radar. Because ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
While the first season of Clannad received reviews ranging from positive to mixed, the second season Clannad After Story has received universal critical acclaim.
Show 'em who's boss! Point out that a citation is needed OR ELSE!
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:21 PM   #1261
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Oh god, there's no fighting the Wikipedia gestapo, forget about it.

Clannad After is also ranked #1 on Anime News Network!
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:35 PM   #1262
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Another thing that's annoying is that Air is ranked way the hell low on ANN, like in the 200s. Which makes it the odd Key anime out that isn't ranked insanely high (Kanon 2006 is in the top 25). There's actually quite a few similar themes in Clannad After and Air (they're all about family ties), but I felt the latter pulled it off better. And, as good as that field reconciliation scene you just watched is, it's no Air beach scene!

Air has the worst character designs and the worst side stories, so maybe people are turned off by that. But the central plot involving Yukito, Misuzu, and her mother is really, really strong. I see a lot of people talking shit about Air, so I've rewatched it a couple times to see if maybe I was wrong and it does suck. With each re-viewing, it just makes my original feelings about it even stronger!
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:12 PM   #1263
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I think it's undoubtedly the animation. When Kanon 2006 was about to come out and then later when it was airing, I remember people posting pictures on Wakachan of the main girl from Air. The images were often slightly PhotoShopped to accentuate the ridiculous Key tendency of drawing mouths very high on the face and drawing very, very large eyes, creating the illusion in some cels that the top of the mouth and the bottom of the eyes were resting on the same horizontal line. This is something that soon ceased when it became apparent that Kyoto Animation was re-doing the facial designs, hybridizing them with their wildly successful Suzumiya Haruhi faces, and that the new faces weren't any more ridiculous than the faces in any other anime.

I haven't played or seen Air, but it looks like it's become the forgotten sheep in the family. Quoth the Wiki,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In the October 2007 issue of Dengeki G's Magazine, poll results for the fifty best bishōjo games were released. Out of 249 titles, Air ranked eighth with forty-three votes.
Mind you, 8th Place ain't bad! But it's likely that both Kanon and Clannad eclipsed it, corroborating the trend you observed on ANN. I wonder what the other games were?
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:31 PM   #1264
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Well, Mcsweeney. You will probably be happy to know that I am fetching Air even as we speak. You have spoken highly of it for years; there is an absence of good anime on television right now; and I think I have just enough time in the next few weeks to squeeze a 13'er in. (Or a 12'er as the case may be, since I've read that Episode 13 is just a recap episode.)

Now I suppose that all I'll need to watch is Kimi ga Nozomu Eien ni and my list of "animes people have said 'DUDE YOU HAAAAAAVE TO SEE THIS! '" will be complete.

Minus Doppel's recent addition of Natsu no Arashi which, despite his apparent love for the series, didn't look very good to me judging from just the OP to Episode 1 alone. (LOL! I know that's a really bad litmus test! I promise I'll watch Ep1 fully some day ... ^^; )

EDIT: Doh. How could I forget 12 Kingdoms? Still haven't seen that one.
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Old 09-28-2010, 10:15 PM   #1265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big bad birtha View Post
I finished Daibanchou-Big Bang Age-. Well, one route atleast. I liked the characters (except the main character) and the gameplay was kinda fun, but everything else was sorta lame. The story was typical "the gates of hell is about to open and a group of humans has to stop it from destroying the earth." I did like the gameplay a bit though. It gave more leeway with the characters than Rance did, so I could pump time into my favorite characters and they'd be badass, rather than have level limits. Also, like I stated earlier, I liked the character cast. So overall, Daibanchou was half in half for me. I didn't care at all for the story, and the main character was really lame and cliche, while I liked the gameplay and most of the other characters. I might try for the other route later.

Oh, as far as special features go. Unlike Rance, this game actually has a CG gallery and music gallery! It also has a check list of all the character clears you've gotten. I just wish it has the section where you could talk to the Alice Soft twins....
Rance has a CG/music gallery actually, you have to click System - CG Mode/Music Mode.

Now, Rance's IF Routes were not as good as True, IMV. It might be different for BBA. Usually, IF Routes in AliceSoft games are supposed to explore a lot of weird, interesting angles, i.e. Demon King Route.
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Old 09-28-2010, 11:12 PM   #1266
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Well, I finished Clannad After Story. Thoughts ............

Episode 18, Episode 21, and Episode 22 -- How They Chose To End Things:
Spoiler: show
I feel like Episode 18 would have been the ideal way to end the story once they'd already made Episode 16 official. (Reminder: in 16, Nagisa dies. In 18, Tomoya re-enters Ushio's life.) There's a difference between saying "I don't want Nagisa to die!" before she has actually died and saying "I don't want Nagisa to die!" once she's already dead. In the former situation, the fan will generally find himself happiest if Nagisa lives; but he will sometimes be able to accept the powerful story which might evolve out of her tragic passing. In the latter scenario, however, the fan rarely accepts very well the tragically departed's miraculous resurrection. Such things almost invariably feel cheap. They cheapen the impact of the original tragedy, and they also taste like cheap, hollow victories.

What I'm getting at is, if you're going to end tragically, then do. And if you're not, then don't pretend to be all tragic and then execute a magic reboot. It's not because I wasn't hoping for the magic reboot. Because I was. I think most Westerners do, what with how we're raised (i.e. what with the stories we're told growing up). It's because I don't know best. We don't know best. You can't give us the happy ending, even if we're demanding it, once you've already established that a sad ending is where you're going with things. Because the moment you give in to our demands, all of a sudden we don't seem to feel the need for the happy ending half as badly as we did before you gave it to us. All of a sudden, we find ourselves looking back on what we once perceived as the most tragic thing we'd ever seen or heard and now we say, "Well that wasn't so bad. All's well that ends well!"

There are examples of this phenomenon all around us, because a great many authors have struggled with this concept. One that comes to mind is the death of Gandalf the Grey. Remember what an impact that had on you when you first saw The Lord of the Rings? And now how much impact does it have, huh? Not much. Not much at all. It was a powerful scene when we thought Gandalf had died for good. Not only does Tolkien resurrect him, but he gives Gandalf even more badass powers. While this may sound cool and all, it completely neuters the emotional impact of the scene in question.


Episode 18 - Greatest Scene of the Series?
Spoiler: show
I have to agree with Mcsweeney. While the scene where Ushio begs Tomoya to take her on another trip, and her subsequent death, is a very powerful scene; and while the scene in which Nagisa dies, too, is incredibly powerful; I don't think any scene is more powerful in the entire franchise than when father and daughter hug for the first time and start bawling their eyes out. The animation team did a great job with Tomoya's facials on this one! But it's not just facial expressions or tears which make the scene: everything which led up to it was perfect.


The Alternate Universe Side Story
Spoiler: show
So ... I'm confused. Tomoya is the robot. And the girl is ... Ushio? So she claims. But ... she's the one who takes Tomoya to "the place where wishes come true," which was something Nagisa cryptically said one night in Season 1, and again later when she was acting in the school play. So ... is the girl Ushio, or is she Nagisa? Or is she possibly a combination of both? Confusing.

This alternate universe stuff makes a lot more sense in my mind when I think of it as a checkpoint-type thing for the original video game. From the sound of it, the original game required you to collect orbs in order to unlock story paths. And it was only when you successfully collected every orb that you were able to unlock the true ending. I've never played the game, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the true ending is the happy ending where Tomoya is sent back five years into the past, to the time when Ushio was born; and it sounds like the default ending (which they're saying is not the true ending) is the one which wraps up abruptly around Episode 21, with Ushio's death. If I'm right, then -- taken in that context -- the Alternate Universe thing makes sense as a sort of way for Key to tease the gamers along into getting all of the orbs.


Fuuko:
Spoiler: show
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh ... I thought Fuuko died in Season 1. Sure, she "came back" periodically throughout the season, and the humor was always that the amnestic main characters didn't recognize her; but I thought that that was more of a gag than anything else, and that Fuuko had passed away around the time of her sister's marriage to Yoshino-san. So, uh, what happened? I mean, I love Fuuko, so don't get me wrong. ^^; Just was surprised, that's all.


What I Feel The Message Was, and What I Feel It Could Have Been:
Actually, I'm sleepy right now. But I really want to talk about this. So I'll do it tomorrow when I can write better than I feel I can right now. Sneak peek: I feel like the message of the series changed as a direct consequence of Episode 18; and then again as a consequence of Episode 21; and finally one last time as a consequence of Episode 22. Also, I feel the message which Episode 18 established would have been the best one. Look forward to tomorrow's post!

Hospital? What hospital!?
Spoiler: show
Mcsweeney! Didn't you tell me that Tomoya and Ushio wound up in the hospital together holding hands!? This never happened! Ushio died on the snowy sidewalk alongside Tomoya, and then the reboot took place. I'll have to look back through your posts tomorrow and see where I thought I read you say this ...
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:05 AM   #1267
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I think Daibanchou only has two paths, and from what I've seen, the only differences is in the ending. Daibanchou does have 6 different character endings, but that's simply a bonus CG of the character you H'ed more than any of the rest at the end of the game.


Now for Clannad stuff.
Spoiler: show
As for the thing where you get the True Ending. You have to collect the "lights" from every character. When Nagisa's giving birth, you're taken to the scene where you first meet her. At first, you're not given a choice. Tomoya will regret even meeting her and Nagisa ends up dieing. When you go through Ushio's and Naoyuki's (I think that's his name) paths and collect their "lights" you can go back to that scene and you're given a choice to whether you call out to Nagisa or let her pass (which he did by default.) Calling out to her unlocks the True Ending. This honestly makes more sense in the visual novel, since the point in alot of the game is to collect the "lights" from every character when you make them happy. So it's like the happiness you've given many other people becomes a miracle that saves Nagisa and grants Tomoya happiness. It sounds cheesy, but meh.

I never understood the alternate universe story. I mean, I guess I could've thought about it and read into it more, but I'm lazy.

As for Fuuko...I dunno actually. Even in her path in the visual novel, her sister said that she stopped breathing. Then during the Fuuko path epilogue, Fuuko walks up to Tomoya and asks him out...even though they basically said she died. It bothered me at first, but Fuuko's end CG was so adorable I didn't really care anymore. Maybe Fuuko was holding her breath when they said she "stopped breathing".

Also, Ushio and Tomoya never go into the hospital. Are you sure Timothy wasn't talking about Akio and Tomoya?
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:55 AM   #1268
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Now for Clannad stuff.
Spoiler: show
As for the thing where you get the True Ending. You have to collect the "lights" from every character. When Nagisa's giving birth, you're taken to the scene where you first meet her. At first, you're not given a choice. Tomoya will regret even meeting her and Nagisa ends up dieing. When you go through Ushio's and Naoyuki's (I think that's his name) paths and collect their "lights" you can go back to that scene and you're given a choice to whether you call out to Nagisa or let her pass (which he did by default.) Calling out to her unlocks the True Ending. This honestly makes more sense in the visual novel, since the point in alot of the game is to collect the "lights" from every character when you make them happy. So it's like the happiness you've given many other people becomes a miracle that saves Nagisa and grants Tomoya happiness. It sounds cheesy, but meh.
When I read about that mechanic back in 2006 (?) it annoyed me to no end, because it's basically implying that Tomoya going off with other girls can somehow make Nagisa in some universe happier. I get the intent now that you've explained it, but it still feels wrong somehow. It reminds me of an early chapter of Berserk where Guts acts OOC when compared with the rest of the series (major spoiler) -

Spoiler: show
Where he bangs an Apostle. Guts was portrayed as sex-adverse ever since he was raped by Donovan, and had to be guided by Caska into sleeping with her. Even in the Retribution arc, Guts' sanity losing moment to the Beast of Darkness is when he tries to rape Caska. So, that early scene, where he bangs an Apostle just to get close so he can murder it (said Apostle happened to be the one who killed Pippin), just seems wrong in some way, since he loves Caska and is loyal to her. So the shock of seeing him do that, forsaking something so sacred, doesn't mesh right with the series, even considering how amoral Black Swordsman Guts was.


Clannad/Kanon:

Spoiler: show

Anyhow, I never liked Nagisa. Never have, never will. So the ending was doomed to be hated by me from the start. Most of what I'm missing from After Story are the early episodes I couldn't sit through. I did like little Ushio though, who despite being a seven episode old character made a bigger impact on me than Nagisa ever did. So for what happened post Episode 18, which conspired to kill Ushio so it could force a great magical rainbow egg ending, really incensed me. That the ending was so ridiculous, and so bloody surreal, and so utterly cheesy and thematically bruised...it was like rubbing salt in an already flaming open wound.

It was worse than the deus ex for Kanon's major shock moment, when Yuuichi violently recovers his suppressed memory and remembers how Ayu fell out of that great tree, and broke her neck, while Yuuichi was in the middle of nowhere and was just a weak little kid who could not feasibly do anything about Ayu. And the worst part was, Ayu's 'death' would have gone unnoticed by the world, because she was a forgotten orphan, no one knew her, no one would grieve, no one would come to save her. It was the culmination of her theme and THE ultimate tragedy...only for her to have somehow made it to a hospital. W.T.F.!!

But After Story was worse. I can just imagine KEY throwing in Kanon's deus ex because without it, Ayu's story would have been a major, major downer. Plus, what would Yuuichi do afterward...? Commit suicide? That's some heavy stuff he was shouldering, forgetting was a protection mechanism because his mind couldn't handle it. The only legitimate ending would have been a bad one. So, the deus ex was acceptable, implausible and ridiculous as it was.

But After Story took it to the next step, manipulating the plot specifically so a magic reset was forced upon us. It wasn't a deus ex, because there were hints all over the place. It was planned from the start. And in fact that makes it worse, because we know for a fact KEY intended to make this a bait-n-switch, whatever gave them the idea that such an ending was not just acceptable, but presentable?

Plus, as Talon said, it weakens the characters resolve. Weakens all the pain they went through, all the suffering, and pretty much makes what they learned moot. Blick Winkel realized this when believed he had the opportunity to alter Ever17's time-line, but stepped back both for physical limitations (it couldn't be done, even with his powers) and because it was disrespectful to the pain the characters endured for 17 years. It disrespects the life they lead, the choices they made. It takes away the very conditions that made the characters who they were in the present day, the resolution that made them so deserving of salvation. Much the same could be said of AS' ending.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:32 AM   #1269
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I dunno if I've said it before, but I guess I can give my opinion on the Clannad Afterstory ending.
Spoiler: show
I do agree with Timothy that it should've ended at or a little after the part where Tomoya takes Ushio back. Going any further would make things difficult. If they stopped at where Ushio died, it would be like a massive middle finger. "Ha ha, you suck Tomoya. Next we're gonna break your legs and pour hot grease up your ass!" Also trying to recreate the True Ending without making it look outright silly is difficult. I guess I can see where they came off since they basically tried to do everything the visual novel did, but suddenly going back in time is just... well, silly.


For the miracles where a tragedy should've taken place but didn't thing, I'm basically used to them. It's almost a given in a story. The only time they annoy me is if they're completely over the top with it. Type-Moon also gets annoying with it since they effing spam it. By the time the story's done, every character there should've died over 9000 times.
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:20 PM   #1270
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You guys are right on the money.

Spoiler: show
"Sanae-san told me there are two places I can cry. The bathroom, and in daddy's arms." Oh god, that was so sad! PERFECT. That right there was the apex of the whole series, and should have been treated as such! Afterwards, they get on the train and Tomoya chokes up when he starts talking about Nagisa for the first time ... good stuff! It was stupid to try and top episode 18's emotional payoff by killing off Ushio. It was excessive. It wasn't necessary! Don't get me wrong, I love a good tragedy, but this was tragedy for tragedy's sake.

Well, fine. They go for the super sad ending and off Ushio. Then they commit the ultimate atrocity and go "lol just kidding! They're all fine." What a cop out. I don't even need to explain why this is ridiculous and stupid, because it's so obvious. If you're going to do a major event and get us all emotionally invested in the characters and things that happen, commit to it! Talon talked about this well enough already.
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:25 PM   #1271
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It's great that you're checking out Air. Good call on skipping episode 13, it's pointless. In fact, the subbing group The Triad didn't do it at all. Speaking of which, I find it amusing that Air is a favourite of The Triad's, since their usual tendency is toward more manly anime (Akagi, Kaiji, Detroit Metal City).

I can't guarantee that you'll like it. If it is indeed true that Clannad After has "universal critical acclaim", then Air creates more divided feelings. It's short though, so even if it turns out to be a bust for you, no big time investment.
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:35 PM   #1272
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WARNING! Contains massive spoilers! But I didn't feel like using the spoiler tag. You've been warned!!

What was the message of this story?
Before Episode 16 of Clannad After Story, I don't really know what I'd say was the message the show was trying to send. Maybe the same one people say it ultimately does send? The whole "family is important" angle? I suppose you could make that argument. But pre-Episode 16, the adversity encountered by the main two characters was pretty silly when compared with the adversity encountered by the characters in Kanon or in other stories. I guess the best we could say is, Tomoya didn't have a mother growing up and his father was an alcoholic deadbeat with the occasional streak of drunken abusive tendencies. Then he meets Nagisa, who has the best father and mother known to Man, and they all but adopt him. He moves out of his father's house and moves in with them, becoming like the son they never had. The end. It's a nice, quaint story, but there's no massive impact to it.

After Episode 16, but before Episode 18, the show takes a turn for the depressing as Tomoya's world comes crashing down around him. I'll hold off on saying what the show's point would be here, so let's move on to the next benchmark.

With Episode 18, the show clearly has a new message. And it's a very powerful one. It's a message that includes ideas like "life isn't all good but it isn't all bad either" and, more specifically, "sometimes you can't meet a wonderful person whose existence you'll cherish forever without saying good-bye to a wonderful person whose existence you cherish today." For most of us, this experience happens when we do things like move to a new city. We're sad to part with our old friends, but had we never moved then we also would never have gotten to meet our new friends. It's human nature to want both -- to want both the old and the new -- but every once in a while, we're presented with situations where getting to have both is impossible. In Nagisa's and Ushio's case, this was exactly that situation. Tomoya is haunted by Nagisa's death, and in Episode 17 we hear him repeat the belief that things would have been better had he never met Nagisa at all. Well, perhaps things would have been better for Nagisa -- and would they really have been? -- but things would have have been worse for Ushio. The fact is, a mother who dies in childbirth and a child whose birth causes the immediate death of her mother -- these two form two sides to a coin which cannot be both face-up and face-down at the same time.

While Tomoya misses Nagisa, Ushio's existence is worthy of celebration. In her, Tomoya has a wonderful daughter. A daughter who loves her daddy very much. In Ushio, Tomoya finds salvation. He finds purpose. He finds his reason to live. Ushio clearly becomes the center of Tomoya's universe, and it's apparent in Episodes 19 and 20 that Ushio loves her daddy very much too.

This message is completely scrapped by Episode 21. In this episode, Ushio dies, and the show clearly takes on an entirely new and different message: "no matter how crappy you think your life may be, you're better off than this guy." Tomoya effectively becomes the audience's reference point, the audience's definition which they could look up in any dictionary for the words "hopeless," "pitiful," or "unlucky." Here is a man who (a) lost his mother at an early age, (b) lost his one shot at becoming a professional who could make good money when his dad ruined his son's throwing arm, (c) lost an opportunity for a promotion at his decidedly suboptimal job as an electrician when his father's trouble with the law came back to bite him in the rear, (d) lost the love of his life to the combined effects of childbirth and her chronic illness, and finally (e) is reunited with the daughter he was too depressed to raise after five long years only to have her, too, snatched away from him by the same terrible illness -- and after only 6 months of getting back into her life. Tomoya is the world's unluckiest man. How can you not pity him? That basically becomes the show's message.

And the thing is, that message sort of sucks. Because it's like saying to the audience, "Hey, look! Quitcher bitchin'! You think you've got it tough? Watch THIS!" and then you go and sadistically write up the world's most depressing plot development ever. That isn't really a good message. The message from Episode 18 -- the message of "Hey, you lost one precious person but you gained another" -- was much more powerful and much more applicable to our real lives in the real world. Most of us will not find ourselves ever in Episode 21 Tomoya's shoes, but some of us will find ourselves or people we know and care about in Episode 18 Tomoya's shoes. So I think the Episode 18 message would have been more poignant and more memorable in the long run than the Episode 21 message.

Finally, we come to the Episode 22 message. This is the last episode of the show (since 23 is a prequel episode and 24 is a recap episode). And in it, we witness the magic reboot. What's the message here, then? It appears to be something along the lines of, "If you have cynical thoughts, then you will find yourself trapped inside Hell. But if you have optimistic thoughts even in the darkest of times, then you'll find that the magic city you live in will come through for you." .................... what the fuck? THIS is your final message, Key!? That we should have more faith in our magic hometowns? And that if we do that they will perform miracles for us? Come on!

Think I'm crazy? Then think about this: Tomoya sees Nagisa die right in front of him. He then says, after the fact (and not before it), that "things would have been better if I'd never met you at all." Then, fast forward five years and one magic reboot, Tomoya is taken back to this moment in time, and this time he says, "No, things would not have been better. I would still call out to you, even if I had it to do all over again." And this time around, as he thinks this thought, and he is looking down on the body of his just-died-5-seconds-ago wife, he discovers that he misjudged her physical condition and, lo and behold, she had merely passed out. She was alive after all. She opens her eyes and confirms this.

I mean, what? Seriously? The city is going to do Tomoya a favor after he shows a little faith but it's going to let Nagisa die when he thinks what 99.9% of us would think instinctively were we in his same situation: that our wife had just died? What the fuck sort of message is this?

In the end, fans will still point to Clannad's overarching theme of "family is important," but I feel like you could argue that message for all four scenarios (pre-16, post-18, post-21, and post-22); and honestly, I feel like even that popular message would have been most evident with Episode 18. "Family is important." Yeah, no shit: family saves Tomoya. It is discovering that he still has a family which saves him from despondency. You don't really see that in the other episodes. You see him bemoaning the loss of family, rather than celebrating the discovery of it.

WARNING! Contains massive spoilers! But I didn't feel like using the spoiler tag. You've been warned!!
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:38 PM   #1273
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Dopple, it really is true that Guts' character does not line up properly.

Spoiler: show
I talked at length before about how Guts displays genuinely shocking behaviour for a protagonist in the first few chapters; particularly when he allows an old man who helped him die. In fact, looking on in amusement as he's executed (he could have easily saved him). This is just way out of line with how he is in the newer chapters that catch up to the Black Swordsman time period. No WAY would modern day Guts let that old man die. One possible explanation is that the incident with Theresia strongly affected him (it obviously did, as was seen by the famous shot of his face after she vows to kill him), and softened him up to his old self, but I think a more likely explanation is that Miura spent SO LONG writing the back story for Guts and developing his character, that he ended up with someone completely different by the time he caught up to the time line of the first chapters. That includes the part where he's rockin' that demon chick (so he can shoot her in the face with a crossbow). He probably never thought out his relationship with Caska yet when he wrote that part.
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:45 PM   #1274
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Yeah Talon,

Spoiler: show
It would have been sucky if Ushio died and that was the end of the show, but there might be some meaning to that. The reboot was the WORST POSSIBLE THING they could have done. How many times did they have to shit on the perfection of episode 18?
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:52 PM   #1275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
You guys are right on the money.
Well thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
If you're going to do a major event and get us all emotionally invested in the characters and things that happen, commit to it! Talon talked about this well enough already.
But I couldn't have said it better myself. You managed in two lines what took me multiple paragraphs to explain. I'd say you're spot on the money, pal! Indeed: either don't do it or do -- but never, ever say "well, we're going to pretend to do it and then reveal that we're not going through with it after all." It'd be sort of like if, in Planetes ...
Spoiler: show
If Tanabe had died on the moon in Episode 24, it would have been like having Hachi get all depressed, thinking to himself, "Man, I'd give anything to have Tanabe back. Even this trip to Jupiter!", and then having him wake up aboard the space station one year back in time, Tanabe still alive and his application to join the Von Braun exploration team clutched in his fist. Either kill her or don't kill her -- but don't kill her and then push the magic reboot button. Nobody wins that way. Nobody.

As an aside, you'd REALLY lose that way, wouldn't you? The last thing you'd EVER want to see is Hachi getting a second chance to choose between Tanabe and the expedition and this time he chooses Tanabe and he crumples up his app and throws it in the trash! Man, would you have raged or what!?


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It's great that you're checking out Air. [...] In fact, the subbing group The Triad
Yeah, I'm through Episode 2. But shoot, I didn't know Triad had subbed it. If I did, I'd have gone for their translation, definitely. The one I'm using right now is pretty good too, though. Doki, they're called. It was either them or Uguu, but I found that Doki's package was like half the size of Uguu's. (Loss in resolution, sure, but 800+ x 480 is hardly what I'd call tiny. Kids these days are so spoiled!)

So yeah. I'll be posting on Air eventually. For now?
  • Gao < Uguu in cuteness and just about everything. Then again, Uguu may be too high of a standard. Ayu and her Uguus are just too cute.
  • I think I know why you liked Misuzu so much. Or should I say, I think I know why you favored Nayuki in Kanon! Same voice actress! Isn't it? They sound the same. Here, I'll look it up ...

    WHAT!? D: Misuzu's voice actress is the same one who did my beloved Sayuri from Kanon!? D: Neuuuuuuuuuuuu! (Has so far found Misuzu to be annoying. Of course, has loved Sayuri very much ever since Summer '05 when he watched the first Kanon anime.)

    Never mind then. ^^;
  • lol at the annoying loli with the long red hair. I usually hate the character subgenre of "spunky, foul-mouthed tomboys" but this particular one's interactions with the main character have been hysterical. LOL @ their getting into martial arts stances while the other two far more normal characters continue talking.
  • Figures that the girl I find most attractive is this show's Kotomi (Clannad). Sigh. What is it with Key taking the hot character design and lending it to a eyes-half-shut brainiac who talks like Eeyore?

More later.
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