big bad birtha's suggestion box 2: secret passions unveiled

[lilboocorsola]

Funny thing is I actually went ahead and read that manga spoiler a while back, so I know what Dopple and kaisap are whispering to each other about. ^^; Sorry, Talon. There's really nothing I can say that won't spoil the surprise. Heck, I already gave you a hint.

[deoxys]

I read the spoiler too because I quite honestly have zero fucks to give about this show's plot, which is rare, because I pretty much have a very strict no-spoiler policy on stories I follow. Poor Talon is left out now . The only reason I'm still with it is because it has a potentially interesting premise going for it. Also because of the novelty of terrible animation to joke about. Also I guess because it's fairly intense.

Anyway, I'm going to make a thread to clear out some of the posts about it clogging this thread up, but I'm not putting any effort into it. Someone wants to make a character list or whatever, be my guest.

[Talon87]

So ... nice choice of picture, Deo, but could you maybe grab one that doesn't have Spanish fansubs all over it? ^^;;

[deoxys]

Didn't even notice, whoops.

[lilboocorsola]

Posting here because I have nowhere else to spaz:

TWO NEW KAGEPRO SONGS HAVE COME OUT WHY DID I NOT NOTICE THE SECOND ONE WAS JUST RELEASED TODAY AHH SO MANY FEELS WHAT IS GOING ON I BARELY UNDERSTAND THE STORY TO BEGIN WITH BUT EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED SOMEHOW I MUST KNOW WHEN IS THE ANIME COMING OUT HNNNNNNG.

'Kay I'm done fangasming now.

In all seriousness, it really is such a pretty song... It's too bad I can't share it since no one will likely care get it without some familiarity of the characters. ^^; But once again I'm impressed by how much both the art and music have improved immensely. I'm sure it will sound even more wonderful once someone covers it. =3

Edit- Wow, some people are really critical of this song. =/ I like it at least. =3=

[kaisap112]

The mangaka of Aku no Hana has another series running. It's called Boku wa Mari no Naka, and Talon can possibly tell us exactly what is so wrong with the title alone.

Summary:
"The manga follows an "angel-like" beautiful high school girl with a certain secret she has been hiding from everyone, and an idle hikikomori (one who adnormally avoids social contant) young man; the highlight of his day is seeing Mari at the convenience store. The story begins as Mari wakes up in her room, but something feel amiss about the room and even her own body."

The manga, as I'm reading it so far, is very pink and sparkly. It's a big throw-off from the gloomyness of Aku no Hana. But the second page also declares in big letters "The birth of a new oshimi style heroine!!", which apparently means we have a pervert girl as a protagonist.

You can probably guess my surprise at this is non-existent.

I'll report more on this series once I get further into it.

EDIT: two pages later it is revealed this is a body-swap between pretty high school girl and grown-up hikikomori guy. Oooh boy.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by kaisap112

It's still kaisap, you guys. ;n;

Thanks for bringing this up, I had not noticed! I did this to UM too, back in the day.

Originally Posted by kaisap112

Aku no Hana manga readers only:

Spoiler: show

I honestly hope the anime will include the "I DON'T UNDERSTAND BAUDELAIRE, I JUST WANT TO FEEL COOL, BUT PLEASE IGNORE ME BITCHING ABOUT 'NO ONE ELSE' UNDERSTANDING BAUDELAIRE FOR THE ENTIRE SERIES SO FAR" scene. Kasuga is the most pathetic male in existence - and with Shinji Ikari having held the post for so long, it's an extreme level of pathetic by definition.

It actually makes me sad that Saeki's obsession with a guy like him is pretty much her downfall. But love is blind, I guess.

That seems to be a common theme with Japan right now. I don't know why, but the mentality with masochism seems to be spreading into other categories, like with the popularity of the repulsive "NTR". Why would guys enjoy seeing their girls taken away from them, against their will, and brutalized? Seems homologous to enjoying watching someone as pathetic as Kasuga, do pathetic things!

Originally Posted by deoxys

I read the spoiler too because I quite honestly have zero fucks to give about this show's plot, which is rare, because I pretty much have a very strict no-spoiler policy on stories I follow.

Reading my spoiler box is like flipping my skirt. Not only should you not be doing it, why would you?!

[kaisap112]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

That seems to be a common theme with Japan right now. I don't know why, but the mentality with masochism seems to be spreading into other categories, like with the popularity of the repulsive "NTR". Why would guys enjoy seeing their girls taken away from them, against their will, and brutalized? Seems homologous to enjoying watching someone as pathetic as Kasuga, do pathetic things!

Herbivore men are a topic of discussion in Japan, if I've understood correctly. But in case of pathetic protagonists, it is not the same as masochism. Take Aku no Hana (as far as the anime's gotten): Kasuga isn't enjoying the treatment he's being given, he's just too much of a wuss to say "no". The male protagonist of Warawanai Neko actually fits the bill of a masochist - he enjoys the treatment he receives, he volunteerily makes himself a girl's pet dog, he doesn't spend all his free time angsting and hoping it'll end as soon as possible, and so forth.

As for NTR, I think it's related to cuckolding in that the person is aroused by their significant other sleeping around with other people with/out permission, but NTR blends in rape and violence fetishes. Think of the people interested in NTR in the same group as the people who play H-games where you rape women (yes, we've covered even in this thread (iirc) that those exist).

Humans have wanted to see suffering and torture since the times of ancient Greece, so the popularity of NTR isn't that surprising if you really think about it. Sexual violence in manga/anime isn't that much different from us watching/reading works filled with gore, torture, murder, images of human organs and open bodies etc etc. We just seem to be more desensitized to the latter kind of violence.

Okay, CHEERIER TOPIC.

Found this list of anime, which is apparently trying to be a "what to recommend to someone new to anime" kind of sheet. Many of these animes are ones I've heard of or know by name but haven't watched, or haven't watched all the way through. I'm seeing plenty of Studio Ghibli - not surprising - but also almost every movie by Satoshi Kon. If I won't find anything else to do this summer, I'll be taking on the challenge of watching every single show and movie on that sheet.

If you know of a better sheet to watch through, lemme know. Sheets of specific genres could also be fun to have a look at (best of school anime, fantasy, slice of life, romance etc etc.). :3

[deoxys]

I don't understand why more and more anime with a set amount of episodes of unfinished novels or manga is a growing trend. It seems very stupid unless the author explained how to the end was going to come about and let it occur in the anime before it even happened in the story.

[deoxys]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Reading my spoiler box is like flipping my skirt. Not only should you not be doing it, why would you?!

Already said, I don't care. I'm kind of only watching it because a few of my friends forced me into it ironically, although I'm pretty sure they enjoy it unironically now. Again, I can't even recall the last time I intentionally spoiled myself on something, if ever - but I just can't find myself interested in the story of this melancholy emo japanese high school soap opera of ridiculous proportions, I'm sorry.


I'm somewhat entranced by the show, funnily enough, although I have no idea what it is - which is the only other real reason I'm still watching it.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by deoxys

I don't understand why more and more anime with a set amount of episodes of unfinished novels or manga is a growing trend. It seems very stupid unless the author explained how to the end was going to come about and let it occur in the anime before it even happened in the story.

I was going to say something like this a few weeks back but then closed my mouth and chuckled at myself when I realized ... many, many anime series have done this over the years. I'm not sure it's a new trend, even if at times it feels that way even to me. Just to list off a few famous examples ...

• Love Hina (2000) started up when there were only six or so manga volumes out. The manga ended up having fourteen volumes. Two of the later ones were covered by OAVs (a Christmas and Summer special, respectively) and the final four three and a tidbit volumes were covered by the three-part OAV Love Hina Again.
• School Rumble (2004) started when the manga was only two years old. The manga ended up being six years old by the time it finished. Like Love Hina, School Rumble saw continuations in a second season which covered the middle two years' worth of manga and an apologetic OAV which skipped over all but the final remaining chapters of the manga. Or so I'm told. Still haven't seen that OAV. *want to read the manga first*
• Ah! My Goddess began in 1988. Forty volumes later, it's still ongoing. ^^; It's seen no fewer than three major adaptations that start us from the beginning (an OAV series, a film, and a television series spanning two seasons and two OAV sequels of its own).
• Elfen Lied (2004) did this, what with its manga not ending until 2005.
• Fruits Basket (2001) is a pretty big offender. Its manga began in 1999 but didn't finish until 2006. Only two an a half years into its nearly eight-year run, executives were scrambling to pump out an anime adaptation, certain it would be a moneymaker. And it was! ... until the ending, which pissed everybody off. ^^; To this day one of the worst made-for-TV anime endings I've ever seen. What an utter wreck.
• Fullmetal Alchemist (2003) took nine years to complete in manga form, from 2001 to 2010. That's right: once again we get an anime adaptation only two years into the popular manga's run. ^^; As you already know, the television series swerved off into made-for-TV territory fairly early. The enduring popularity of the manga with its fans led to a second television adaptation years later, beginning in 2009 when they knew the end of the manga was close and that they could line up the two fairly well. (And they did. The second TV series wrapped up in July 2010; the manga wrapped up the previous month.)
• Genshiken (2004) was based on the manga which ran from 2002 to ... 2006. ^^; Once again, a TV adaptation two years into the manga's run and before the mangaka has wrapped things up with his or her story. This necessitated a second season later to cover the remaining half, so I guess that since they more or less did that Genshiken might be considered one of the success stories of this practice. Except that (afaik) the anime was never super popular with people who didn't read the manga and it wasn't that loved by fans of the manga like myself since they/we vastly preferred the manga to the television adaptation.
• Anything serialized in Shonen Jump magazine that has an anime. I'm not even going to bother with years ...
  • DragonBall
  • One Piece
  • Naruto
  • Bleach
  • Hikaru no Go
  • Yu-Gi-Oh!
  • Hunter x Hunter
  • Gintama
• Rozen Maiden (2004), whose manga started in ... say with me now! ... 2002, two years before the TV adaptation. The manga kept going until 2007, whereupon it took a hiatus, switched publishers, and resumed in 2008. It's still ongoing. The first television series quickly swerved off into made-for-TV waters, and a later second TV season tried to get the series back on track with the manga yet only took us further off course. It got an OAV and then ... went to sleep until recently, when a new anime project was confirmed. Starts airing this July! Get pumped!
• Suzumiya Haruhi (2006), whose light novel series started in ... surprise! 2003! Three years before the TV adaptation! Yeah, not much difference. As you know, the novels are still ongoing, the anime has gotten two seasons and a film, etc.
• Shakugan no Shana (2005), adapted from the light novel series beginning in 2002. At the time, the series was still ongoing; it wouldn't finish until ten years after it began, in 2012. As you may know, Shana has gotten three different television seasons along with an OAV and a film to pad things out.
• Zero no Tsukaima (2006), adapted from the light novel series which ran from 2004 to 2011. It would end up getting three TV seasons, an OAV, and a fourth TV season.

I could keep listing things off, but I think you get the idea. (Hell, that Shonen Jump list alone kind of proves my point with all the heavy-handedness of a nuclear bomb. ) There's a long history of adapting incomplete but popular manga to television. Part of it is doubtless a desire to cash in on the franchise's popularity before it's too late, or maybe even to help fan the flames of that popularity to even greater intensity. (See: pretty much anything Shonen Jump-related.) Part of it is probably just a desire to be the ones to work on a beloved project and to make a contract bid before some other studio does. (See: pretty much any of the light novel series adapted in the mid-2000s.) And part of it is probably other things. But the point is, I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on, you and I, if we want to try and argue that there's this "trend" towards adapting more and more things that are unfinished. When I try to find evidence of said trend, I come up short. I find a lot of original creations both in the present and in the past (present examples include things like Psycho-Pass, Hanasaku Iroha, and Ano Hana), I find a lot of adaptations of completed works (present examples include things like Another, Shinsekai yori, and Fate/Zero), and I find quite a few adaptations of incomplete works (present examples include Hyouka, Hunter x Hunter, and Sakurasou). Maybe the UPN community's been a bit more plugged in to the adaptations of incomplete works than the ones of complete works or the original works recently. But as for Japan overall, I dunno, I can't really find convincing evidence of such a trend towards adapting incomplete works.

[deoxys]

Yeah, Fruit's Basket ended incredibly far away from the manga's actual end. I didn't mention the shonen anime because, as I said, set in stone number of episodes - I think it's pretty safe to say One Piece and Naruto aren't going anywhere until their respective mangas wrap up. I also thought about Haruhi as I was writing that post out, but I think the show would probably continue if it weren't for so many issues surrounding the studio and VA scandal.

Anyway, I see your point - I guess I just don't understand why this is a thing that even happens. It seems unfair to the art, to the story, to the author, and to the viewers - to not end it as a complete storyline as it was intended - for any anime based on a manga/light novel.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by deoxys

Yeah, Fruit's Basket ended incredibly far away from the manga's actual end. I didn't mention the shonen anime because, as I said, set in stone number of episodes - I think it's pretty safe to say One Piece and Naruto aren't going anywhere until their respective mangas wrap up. I also thought about Haruhi as I was writing that post out, but I think the show would probably continue if it weren't for so many issues surrounding the studio and VA scandal.

How is any of what you just said excusing those series from the problem I've confronted you with? ^^;

Your claim: there's a recent trend in anime towards adapting unfinished works.
My rebuttal: no there isn't, look at this long list.
Your rebuttal: but those series have reasons!

What? ^^;

And in particular, your answer trying to get Haruhi off the hook doesn't even make sense. What does voice actor trouble have anything to do with the series not being done yet? The series can't be done, no matter how smoothly the studio works, if the books themselves aren't done yet. Isn't that kind of the point!? You're bemoaning that things go on hiatus because they're adaptations of incomplete works. To date, Haruhi is an incomplete work. It's been seven years this month since its first season started. If even in those comfortably expansive seven years Kyoto Animation had covered all of the currently-existing Haruhi material, they'd still be out of material and without an ending. Because Tanigawa hasn't penned one for them to run with. Haruhi not being done has nothing to do with Hirano Aya or Kyoto Animation and everything to do with Kadokawa Shoten and Tanigawa. But even if it did, that still doesn't change the fact that Haruhi is a clear example of starting a series before it's finished. I'm saying that even if Haruhi's final book came out five years ago, the anime was still started before the books from which it's adapted were finished. And that "if" isn't even true.

If it's okay with you, can we ask Yuki to move these last four posts into the chat thread? Right from the get-go we're derailing the Aku no Hana thread, and nothing in the post of yours that started us off is surgically inseparable from this thread. In fact, you word the post in the most general of terms.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by deoxys

Already said, I don't care. I'm kind of only watching it because a few of my friends forced me into it ironically, although I'm pretty sure they enjoy it unironically now. Again, I can't even recall the last time I intentionally spoiled myself on something, if ever - but I just can't find myself interested in the story of this melancholy emo japanese high school soap opera of ridiculous proportions, I'm sorry.

If it had "sexy art" and was set in a J-MMORPG, would that be a bit more palatable? :P

Originally Posted by deoxys

I'm somewhat entranced by the show, funnily enough, although I have no idea what it is - which is the only other real reason I'm still watching it.

It's a show on a tightrope, straddling that fine line between brilliance and train-wreck. Manga that manage to pull that off are kind of rare, so that does fuel interest.

Though, I feel like it's already fallen into one of those abyss post-Festival.

[deoxys]

Originally Posted by Talon87

How is any of what you just said excusing those series from the problem I've confronted you with? ^^;

Your claim: there's a recent trend in anime towards adapting unfinished works.
My rebuttal: no there isn't, look at this long list.
Your rebuttal: but those series have reasons!

What? ^^;

And in particular, your answer trying to get Haruhi off the hook doesn't even make sense. What does voice actor trouble have anything to do with the series not being done yet? The series can't be done, no matter how smoothly the studio works, if the books themselves aren't done yet. Isn't that kind of the point!? You're bemoaning that things go on hiatus because they're adaptations of incomplete works. To date, Haruhi is an incomplete work. It's been seven years this month since its first season started. If even in those comfortably expansive seven years Kyoto Animation had covered all of the currently-existing Haruhi material, they'd still be out of material and without an ending. Because Tanigawa hasn't penned one for them to run with. Haruhi not being done has nothing to do with Hirano Aya or Kyoto Animation and everything to do with Kadokawa Shoten and Tanigawa. But even if it did, that still doesn't change the fact that Haruhi is a clear example of starting a series before it's finished. I'm saying that even if Haruhi's final book came out five years ago, the anime was still started before the books from which it's adapted were finished. And that "if" isn't even true.

If it's okay with you, can we ask Yuki to move these last four posts into the chat thread? Right from the get-go we're derailing the Aku no Hana thread, and nothing in the post of yours that started us off is surgically inseparable from this thread. In fact, you word the post in the most general of terms.

But I wasn't excusing those series, I was agreeing with you. It was just poorly worded. I was also just pointing out that shonen anime have the blank check to continue for pretty much as long as they want to where as the standard 13 - 26 episode anime shows do not or may/may not have a second season depending on ratings.

Also I veered off topic on Haruhi, I really was arguing the wrong point completely. Obviously Haruhi is still running, but I was just pointing out how the show might not return anyway due to problems with the studio. Basically, it was a bad non sequitur. This feels like a sort of silly argument, considering I'm arguing with you, not against...

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by kaisap112

Herbivore men are a topic of discussion in Japan, if I've understood correctly. But in case of pathetic protagonists, it is not the same as masochism. Take Aku no Hana (as far as the anime's gotten): Kasuga isn't enjoying the treatment he's being given, he's just too much of a wuss to say "no". The male protagonist of Warawanai Neko actually fits the bill of a masochist - he enjoys the treatment he receives, he volunteerily makes himself a girl's pet dog, he doesn't spend all his free time angsting and hoping it'll end as soon as possible, and so forth.

That's a great label!

When I say masochism, though, I'm referring to the viewers and not the characters. They like the girls in the story, but like it especially when those girls are torn from their guys and defiled by other guys. I've never been into a lot of doujins for that very reason - while I do hunger for H doujins from time to time, I can't stand seeing characters I like raped or cuckolded away from proper relationships. The gang bang by overweight, hairy dudes in wife-beaters under a flickering light-bulb in a rusty metal shack just irritates the crack out of me.

Originally Posted by kaisap112

As for NTR, I think it's related to cuckolding in that the person is aroused by their significant other sleeping around with other people with/out permission, but NTR blends in rape and violence fetishes. Think of the people interested in NTR in the same group as the people who play H-games where you rape women (yes, we've covered even in this thread (iirc) that those exist).

I don't see how rape/violence is blended with it, exactly. Sure, I can imagine guys liking rape, but I can't imagine guys who have an emotional connection to a male lead enjoying seeing that guy terrorized (through no fault of his own) as his woman is taken from him. There isn't any room for catharsis in there, it's just loss/cruel deprivation.

Originally Posted by kaisap112

Humans have wanted to see suffering and torture since the times of ancient Greece, so the popularity of NTR isn't that surprising if you really think about it. Sexual violence in manga/anime isn't that much different from us watching/reading works filled with gore, torture, murder, images of human organs and open bodies etc etc. We just seem to be more desensitized to the latter kind of violence.

Adultery always upsets me. Doesn't matter the parties or circumstances, it's emotionally devastating for me to watch happen, let alone watch what happens if the character finds out. I get that there's an allure to cruelty but there's so much personal hurt wrapped up in NTR you can imagine why I equated it with masochism. Guys must just enjoy seeing themselves hurt by what happens in-show.

Originally Posted by kaisap112

Okay, CHEERIER TOPIC.

Found this list of anime, which is apparently trying to be a "what to recommend to someone new to anime" kind of sheet. Many of these animes are ones I've heard of or know by name but haven't watched, or haven't watched all the way through. I'm seeing plenty of Studio Ghibli - not surprising - but also almost every movie by Satoshi Kon. If I won't find anything else to do this summer, I'll be taking on the challenge of watching every single show and movie on that sheet.

If you know of a better sheet to watch through, lemme know. Sheets of specific genres could also be fun to have a look at (best of school anime, fantasy, slice of life, romance etc etc.). :3

That sheet is a blend of what I call "casual anime" and some surface weeaboo material. If I were to properly categorize the titles,

-a good chunk have made it to American dub and have good exposure
-Satoshi Kon
-shounen stuff

Legend of the Galactic Heroes is legit, though. It would take you the whole summer to watch since it's a whopping 110 episode OVA (so the episodes are not merely 22 minutes long!). I already have it mostly downloaded and have watched like the first four, if you intend to tackle it I'd love to watch it with you! It's been sitting on my comp since 2010 so it's show time!

[Doppleganger]

I'm not sure what you're complaining about VGM, could you elaborate? Are you opposed to animating un-finished novels, or studios messing with stories when they have enough to animate a single season?

[Talon87]

Obligatory WARNING! 18+ only! Adults only! warning label.

As something of an authority on the topic, I'll just say that equating NTR with torture (and thus trying to conclude that people who like NTR must also like torture) simply isn't right. Netorare simply means wife-stealing. We have a word for that in English and it's not torture. It's seduction.

Now granted, many a seduction tale starts off with forced sex (i.e. rape), but many don't. Netorare is pretty similar. If we want to say 90% of the tales start off with the man raping the woman, I'd say 10% don't. Don't confuse it with consensual adultery (which doesn't quite fit the strictest definition of NTR): examples of the 10% I'm talking about include things like:

• a married undercover agent has infiltrated a sex slave trafficking ring and is posing as a sex slave herself. She has to service some man (a client? a trainer?) or else her cover will be blown. Thus, the sex is willing on her part (insofar as she's the one who is moving her own body to service him and isn't being forced to do anything), but she obviously wouldn't ordinarily want to do it if she could choose. However, once tasted, she wants more (whether of sex or of that particular individual's cock), and thus the NTR wheel is set into motion.
• To save her friends who are being held captive by a wicked man, a warrior princess must perform sexual services for him. He's not forcing her to, but he's not giving her any other choice either: either she does as he tells her and he releases her friends or else she disobeys and he retains them as his prisoners. So she serves him, hating his guts ... but then falls in love with him or something. Again, NTR wheel set in motion.

Any seduction story you can think of that in turn involves a man deliberately trying to obtain a married or dating woman is classified as netorare or NTR. That's what NTR is: a subset of seduction tales, the subset specifically dealing with married or dating women.

The second point to bring up is, say we look at those 90% of stories I said started with rape. I'm using "rape" in the strictest definition of the word: a man or a woman attempts to initiate (whether ultimately successful or not) sexual intercourse with another man or woman to the latter's distress. But the thing is, just like you'd expect with near about any fetish, rape as a plot device in hentai runs the full gamut from "dark, sick, and prolonged" to "light-hearted, comical, and short-lived". The latter might sound offensive but hear me out! I'm talking the Love Hina of rape scenarios, and they're a lot more common than you think. Something like:

• girl likes guy
• guy likes girl
• hell, they're even dating, let's say, or if not, well then they should be!
• guy wants to sleep with girl but girl isn't ready and tells him no
• she slips on a bar of soap and lands on the guy
• boobs in his face! mfmgmgmfmfmfm [/can't breathe]
• (prolong this Three Stooges act as long as you like)
• the guy can't take it any longer and makes a move
• girl protests at first (!!!) but ...
• within like two pages she's neutral and within like two more pages she's loving it
• and they live happily ever after

Granted, this could still offend some, but to most people reading it, it's pretty much a romcom scenario except with sex thrown into the mix. It's Love Hina but with sex. And there ain't nothing sick or dark or twisted about that. Thing is? It's technically a rape story. He technically raped her. He made a move, she protested, and he pressed on anyway. Rape, by definition. But the court of common sense says "OH COME ON! " and rules that the guy in this story is anything but the rapist most people imagine when they hear that some poor soul got raped IRL.

I would say that (again, if we play with armchair math) if 90% of NTR stories start off with rape, over half of them (50% of the 100% total) end with the woman having already quite enjoyed the outcome by the end of one 20-page chapter while less than half of them (40% of the 100% total) end with the woman enjoying the final outcome, however long the author takes to get there. Stories that end with the woman distressed a) don't even really qualify as NTR (for the same reason that they don't qualify as its parent category, seduction) and b) even in the greater pantheon of hentai are the exception to the rule. I'm not trying to make excuses here for NTR fetishists nor am I trying to persuade anyone here that they should like NTR stories. I am, however, shining some light on the (imo) ignorance that NTR equates misogyny, abuse, torture, etc. and that the men who like NTR categorically must be turned on by those things. Again, you wouldn't accuse a man who is turned on by James Bond films' "sex" scenes of being someone who is into torture porn or is a latent wifebeater, so I don't really see why you do it here with hentai. James Bond is the prototypical NTR star. His whole schtick is "turned on by married women, don't really care for single women." He makes a point of pursuing relationships with women to whom he is sexually attracted and who he knows to already be in a relationship with some other man. It's totally NTR -- he's stealing someone else's wife away from them -- but it's not the least bit violent. Is all NTR hentai this sparkly clean? Well, no. But neither is it all as grimdark or terrible as some of you seem to believe it to be.

[Talon87]

Once again, obligatory Warning! 18+ only! warning.

There was a story I wanted to share a long time ago but said "Naaaaaaah" and never did. But now seems like an appropriate time to bring it up and to use it as an example of the "comical rape" I mentioned earlier. If you're interested, I can provide source information below in picture form. (I'd rather not type it out and lead pornbots to UPN.) Spoiler tagging because this became way, way longer than I thought it would. ^^;

Spoiler: show

It's that time of year again: the culture festival! Benioin Tamaki, the class rep, has asked her class for ideas but everything they've nominated has been stupidly perverted stuff and thus rejected by this ojou of the high school. Chishiki has been roped into being a co-rep for the culture fest, much to his dismay, and he sighs to himself as he sizes up the list on the chalkboard. He spots Twister and remarks to himself that there's no way she'll let that one pass! But Benioin surprises him when she enthusiastically says "Twister! That's a good idea! Let's go with that!" So Chishiki speaks up. "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!" he tells her, "you're not seriously going to go with Twister, are you?" "Pardon? " He explains to her that it's a game of sexual harassment. She has no idea what he's talking about and calls him filthy. He then pulls the "Don't tell me you don't know ... *smirk*" card and plays it on her. Her pride insulted, she lies, and the two just keep going at this like an old married couple. The rest of the kids in class remark as such, and when our two would-be lovebirds overhear them saying how well the two get along, Benioin and Chishiki shout out in unison, "WE DO NOT!"



Fast forward to after school, when one of the butlers of the Benioin estate flies in by helicopter to deliver a copy of Twister to Tamaki. She and Chishiki will be staying after school to set up the game, settle on some house rules for the festival tomorrow, and play test to make sure everything works just fine. It's pretty clear that Tamaki is excited -- whether because of her pure-hearted take on Twister, spending time alone with Chishiki, or a mix of both -- and pretty soon the two start to play. When the two's faces get close, Tamaki deredere blushes and backs away, falling over, resulting in a loss. She demands a rematch, and Chishiki is fine with that, but he points out to her that it's pretty boring to play Twister the normal way. So how about this? How about we play Strip Twister? The loser has to take off a piece of clothing each time they lose. At first, Benioin's words are lost in her throat. WHA-!? But then she smirks. "Very well," she tells him, a smile stealing over her face. "I'm not bothered by your usual promiscuous ways! I'll have you strip down to the bone, so prepare yourself! " Oh, the challenge is on. She strategically removes her shirt, knowing the advantage that her ample bust will give her in the upcoming rounds.

Chishiki is a bit of a tsundere himself, and he's not entirely honest with himself at this point that he likes Tamaki. But as he tries to wrap around Benioin-sama in the next round, he can't help but be distracted by her cleavage. And, well, he loses his footing and down he goes! Benioin freaks out herself, of course, but Chishiki manages to regain his composure just in the nick of time. She's out, having landed on her butt, but he's still in, having all hands and feet where they're supposed to be. Penalty #2 for Benioin-ojousama!

Things escalate pretty quickly, and the two lovebirds quickly start getting very deredere. I can't link any of the pictures in between really, but suffice to say, Chishiki makes a move on Tamaki, she verbally objects ("What are you doing!?"), but she doesn't do anything physically in objection. (In fact, she has quite the opposite physical response. ) This keeps up for a bit, with Tamaki being like "You can't do that!" or "What are you doing!?", but she doesn't put up any resistance. She's clearly enjoying it physically, and by the end of the story, nowhere is that clearer than on the orgasmic smile on her face. (Not to mention she asks Chishiki to go one more round. )

At the very end of our tale, we get to see the day of the culture festival. The students have set up several Twister mats in the combination gymnasium-auditorium and it's a hit. (Everyone's playing the family friendly version, btw. ) Chishiki asks Benioin if it's okay for her to be solely refereeing rather than being out there on the floor having fun too along with everyone else. But she tells Chishiki that thanks to him, she doesn't want to kuttsuku with anyone else besides him. (The word carries all of the following meanings, and is being used here deliberately for that ambiguity it affords: (1) to adhere to; to stick to; to cling to; (2) to keep close to; to go along with; (3) to get involved with; to be thick with; to become intimate.) She then pulls him in for a kiss by his school necktie and asks him to take responsibility for that development. ~fin~ [/awwww]

This is a cute story. It's also a pretty erotic story. So if you're looking for such a story and if the premise sounded interesting to you, then I'd recommend checking it out. But why am I posting about it now of all times? Well, I think this story does a very good job of illustrating that "comical, light-hearted rape" I was talking about. Those words may sound insulting when taken out of context, but they really do sum up what stories like these are all about -- and these stories form something like 15-20% of all eromanga. Is the story technically a "rape" story? Yes, yes it is. Guy made a sexual advance, girl said "what are you doing?" / "stop", and he pressed on. But by god, she offered like no resistance, she was pretty much inviting him to make the moves on her (see: page 10), and she definitely enjoyed the outcome, even asking for seconds. Is it unrealistic? Is it insulting? Well, that depends. And that's not really a debate I want to get into tonight. But the point I'm making tonight is that whether or not this version of "rape" is realistic or not, insulting or not, this is a pretty obvious example of the dangers of applying broad-sweeping labels to things and then trying to enforce policies or formulate beliefs around them. Elements in pornography like rape aren't black and white: they're a gradient spectrum of shades. And the point I'm making is that the same is true of NTR. You don't just have a one-size-fits-all NTR. And you don't just have black NTR and white NTR. There's a whole spectrum out there of netorare stories, and that really shouldn't surprise you. Just like there's a whole spectrum out there of seduction stories, from Bram Stoker's Dracula to DC Comics' Harley Quinn character, from Homer's Odyssey to William Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra.

[deoxys]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I'm not sure what you're complaining about VGM, could you elaborate? Are you opposed to animating un-finished novels, or studios messing with stories when they have enough to animate a single season?

I was simply saying that I don't understand why studios make anime based on a story if they're not going to finish the anime the same way the story finished/is going to finish. I think it's unfair to both the anime and manga/novel audiences as well as the author for cutting his/her story short, unless the author explicitly doesn't mind.

I don't know. I just don't appreciate "made for tv endings".

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by deoxys

I was simply saying that I don't understand why studios make anime based on a story if they're not going to finish the anime the same way the story finished/is going to finish. I think it's unfair to both the anime and manga/novel audiences as well as the author for cutting his/her story short, unless the author explicitly doesn't mind.

I don't know. I just don't appreciate "made for tv endings".

Two of my favorite anime series of all time -- Chobits and Planetes -- do some made-for-TV stuff. (Though neither really does a "made for TV ending" in the sense of an ending which doesn't match the source material's. They just do stuff with bonus characters, sidestories, and so on.) So I can't really universally decry this. But in general, I agree with you. One of my biggest pet peeves, absolutely, and one you'll never not find me bitching about when things do turn sour with an experimental TV adaptation.

To expand a little on Chobits though ... the original manga is very surgical. Plot point, plot point, plot point, bam you're done. There's no filler. And while people normally hate filler, self included, the thing about a series like Chobits is ... it's a romance. And not just any romance, but a very cute, warm, cozy little love story that you want to just snuggle into like a warm, ploofy sweater. So it actually helps your story out, not hinders it, to have some side episodes which show the two main characters just hanging out doing cute things together. One of my favorite episodes of the series was entirely made for television. Episode 19, "Chii Helps", the episode where Hideki and Chii help Ms. Hibiya out with some spring cleaning of the apartment complex. (Listed as 17 of 24 by Funimation but is 19 of 27 overall.) Specifically, the bit that starts at 4m58s in the Funimation YouTube video just linked, featuring the song "Sing a Song", with the highlight of adorability at 6m02s (so skip to 5m57s if you want to see it). This wasn't in the manga, and it would have never existed had someone at Madhouse not decided to invent it. I'm grateful to them that they did, but only because it's so wonderful. ^^; As a general rule, I don't want people to try -- because they fail far, far more often than they succeed and when they do fail usually they fail pretty badly. Kind of a paradox, no? I want more Chii butterfly scenes but I don't even want people to try. Perhaps the sentiments of a fan like me might give you some appreciation for the dilemma the animation studios find themselves in.

[lilboocorsola]

I guess I'll chime in with an example of a personal preference that had a made-for-TV ending: Full Moon wo Sagashite. To date the finale has made me cry the hardest of anything I've ever seen. After finishing I would re-watch the final episodes leading up to it every now and then, and each time I would shed buckets. (Eventually the emotional impact dwindled, and by the point it failed to elicit any more tears I laid the series to rest and haven't revisited it since in order to preserve my memories on a pedestal. XP) I read the manga afterwards, which had a lot of differences but in my opinion both stories handled their individual and shared developments well (at least the animé did once it got past the filler). The manga had a great ending too that also made me cry. (Especially since coincidentally the animé's epic last song came on at the exact same time the lyrics appeared as a cameo in the final chapter, so I could actually read along to them. o.o; Then again I was listening to the OST on repeat. XP) But the animé conclusion will always have a special place in my heart, cementing it as the first show I considered a favorite even though I have since discovered new loves.

Edit- Ouran also actually had a strong made-for-TV finale that left things open-ended rather than shoving relationships down our throats. *shrug*

[Talon87]

So ... wow. I ...

'Outbreak Company' Fantasy Light Novels Get TV Anime

Outbreak Company's story centers around Shinichi Kano, a "thoroughbred class" otaku with a light novelist father and an erotic game artist mother. He has no special talents except for his vast knowledge, opinions, and insight on moe.

I ...

Despite this, the Japanese government assigns Shinichi as a "moe" evangelist to the Holy Eldant Empire, a parallel world with an entrance through a thick forest of trees in the Mount Fuji area. In this fantasy world where dragons soar the skies, Shinichi forms a deep friendship with the half-elf maid girl Myuseru and the beautiful young empress Petoraru. Even as he deals with the threats of war between different factions, he worries that he himself is an invader (shinryakusha) to this wondrous land.

... *sigh*

Source: AnimeNewsNetwork

[Doppleganger]

I bet Talon hopes a meteor appears to drive those herbivore men into extinction.

[Kindrindra]

Okay normally I refrain from asking questions that'll make me look like an idiot, but what's a herbivore in the context you just used?