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Old 03-30-2017, 03:56 PM   #39151
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Originally Posted by Missingno. Master View Post
When did you do that?
I adopted a heracross then dracos adopted a seadot and traded it to me
i didnt know that was against the rules
so we both got a ban and I lost the seedot
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:03 PM   #39152
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Why am I not at all in the least bit surprised that two newer members who didn't know that trading adopted mons was against the rules despite the fact that the damn rule isn't even written on either the AC or CC thread have been punished.

What a fucking joke this place is these days, too much damn red tape and complex rules nobody writes down and preaches. No confidence in the mods whatsoever.
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:42 PM   #39153
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Since the rules are unwritten, you'd think a warning would be in order for the first transgression...
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:48 PM   #39154
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THANK YOU
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:01 PM   #39155
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Yeah, Raves and Tate make some good points- I don't think there's any way either of you could have known this was a rule without asking someone. At the very least, it should be mentioned somewhere in the Adoption Center.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:08 PM   #39156
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Yeah
we probably should have asked you or tate or....
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:15 PM   #39157
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I kinda blame myself a little bit, honestly- I know it's a rule, I just never saw that this ever happened. If I had, I'd have said something. I only know it's a rule because the actions of myself and an old, currently inactive member, are to blame for the rule becoming a thing in the first place. Let's just say I'm very lucky to have my Timburr.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:20 PM   #39158
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oh jeeze mm
should we message tess?
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:02 PM   #39159
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Originally Posted by Raves View Post
Why am I not at all in the least bit surprised that two newer members who didn't know that trading adopted mons was against the rules despite the fact that the damn rule isn't even written on either the AC or CC thread have been punished.

What a fucking joke this place is these days, too much damn red tape and complex rules nobody writes down and preaches. No confidence in the mods whatsoever.
I agree with this and Tate's notion. It was unfair to lose the bloody Seedot over an innocent mistake and no warning. Reminds me of the old days LOL.

EDIT: Kawaii, if you're lucky Tess will see the outrage/disappointment and let it slide/give you the Seedot, but from various members' experiences PMing her might not matter. She came down on you this hard, she likely knows there was nothing untoward and no rules there. If anything it might just make her angrier or go ignored. I suppose there's nothing more to lose for you at this point but that's a veteran's opinion. If you're not a Favourite Member you might just get rekt.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:05 PM   #39160
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Presumed knowledge is the worst and is one of the easiest ways to quickly disillusion newer members, which is the lifeblood of any online community, never mind the fact RP communities especially rely on new blood to ensure things do not become stale.

Since I'm aware of how things have gone it should be known loudly and vocally this is not a personal attack, it's an observation of the fact enforcing rules which are not written down anywhere in such a partisan manner is a surefire way to dissuade people from continuing to participate in a game you clearly care about.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:07 PM   #39161
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oh jeeze mm
should we message tess?
I think it'd be a good idea to explain the misunderstanding to her if you haven't already done so.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:09 PM   #39162
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I kinda blame myself a little bit, honestly- I know it's a rule, I just never saw that this ever happened. If I had, I'd have said something. I only know it's a rule because the actions of myself and an old, currently inactive member, are to blame for the rule becoming a thing in the first place. Let's just say I'm very lucky to have my Timburr.
im not dead yet!!!

yeah that's totes lame that this happened. the restrictions on the AC are honestly kinda arbitrary and i don't see the point in their existence, let alone punishing people who go around them
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:39 PM   #39163
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I'm just going to point out that the big reason trading adopted Pokemon became bad in the first place was because people were using them to get around a rule about shard quests in the SoaT that says you can't use adopted Pokemon for them. Now that shard quests are becoming less of a thing, however, I think trading adopted Pokemon around isn't so bad as long as the Pokemon in question has been kept for at least a month or two. I certainly wouldn't call it something worth banning over though, especially if 1) it was a first time offense, and 2) it's as people are saying, and that kind of rule isn't specified in either the Cable Club or the Adoption Center.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:56 PM   #39164
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Actually, if memory serves, Tess told me back then that the issue had more to do with circumventing the one-adoption-per-month limit. So the rule does have at least some sort of merit, and of course it's obviously not against the rules to trade an adopted Pok閙on, like, months or years after the fact. Point still stands, though, that this rule should be made a bit more widely known, to prevent this sort of misunderstanding. Any rule where breaking it could get you banned from a shop should, IMO, be displayed prominently in the first post of said shop.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:25 PM   #39165
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Im so glad so many people are supporting me
here's the issue
dracos hasn't been active in a loooong time
so he can't really argue his case
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Old 03-31-2017, 06:09 AM   #39166
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I wasn't going to get into this here but should probably clarify a couple of points before it goes any further.

This isn't about rule breaking. This is about circumventing an existing stipulation to obtain something that is otherwise unobtainable.

The one adoption per member per month rule was introduced so that all members, new and old, have the same opportunity to adopt. True it is usually the newer members who do visit the adoption centre, but this isn't always the case. Nevertheless the rule is the same for everyone.

This topic has come up before and of course new members can't know about it because they weren't privy to the discussion. That doesn't mean their moral compass is unaware that they are on some level doing something that isn't quite right.

I also agree that banning is a steep step for an unwritten rule which is why I didn't impose a proper ban. Appropriate punishment for deliberate rule breaking would be a ban from trading, which is where and how the breach occurred, rather than from the Adoption Centre itself which isn't used all that much.

I have no interest in making this difficult which is why I requested the Pok閙on in question be removed from kawaii's team and that both members involved must wait an extra couple of months before adopting again. I probably would have let it go if not that I was approached by another newer member who wasn't happy about the trade. If it bothers somebody enough to approach us in the first place then it's safe to assume they are not the only one bothered by it.

To date I've held off on making this a rule as I've been relying on people's sense of fairness to keep it in check, but to ensure this doesn't happen again it has now been imposed as an official rule. A recently adopted Pok閙on (of less than 31 days) can no longer be traded to a member who is currently not eligible to adopt. Doing so will incur a three month Adoption Centre and Cable Club ban, and the Pok閙on will be returned to the Adoption Centre.

Kawaii and Dracos, if you can tell me in all honesty that you truly didn't feel there wasn't something wrong about trading when there was a currently imposed waiting period in play then I'll take you at your word.

Kawaii, you can keep the Seedot.

The rules have been edited.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:06 AM   #39167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enchantress View Post
*snip*
This outcome really does demonstrate my lack of confidence in the ability of the mods to run this game. Lemme break things down.

Quote:
I wasn't going to get into this here but should probably clarify a couple of points before it goes any further.
Your opening statement pretty much declares you didn't really want to bother with the fact you punished new members for breaking an unwritten rule they never knew about. The fact you even had to use 'probably' in that sentence tells me you begrudgingly made this post despite the fact you didn't actually.

Quote:
This isn't about rule breaking. This is about circumventing an existing stipulation to obtain something that is otherwise unobtainable.

The one adoption per member per month rule was introduced so that all members, new and old, have the same opportunity to adopt. True it is usually the newer members who do visit the adoption centre, but this isn't always the case. Nevertheless the rule is the same for everyone.
This is notable. The fact is, at the time there was no proper rule on this part, and I can understand this. However, you mentioning that "circumventing a stipulation" and "rule breaking" aren't the same is nonsense, given that the two terms, in regards to an unwritten and thus technically nonexistant rule, have the same effective meaning.

Quote:
This topic has come up before and of course new members can't know about it because they weren't privy to the discussion.
New members wouldn't know about it because the topic wasn't bloody implemented as a rule they would have known about, and wouldn't have known about because it's unwritten.

Quote:
That doesn't mean their moral compass is unaware that they are on some level doing something that isn't quite right.
excuse me what the fuck you precocious little

What moral compass!? How the fuck can you try and explain away your actions by claiming the new members were in the wrong, doing something Not Quite Right, when we have already established that they wouldn't have known that the stipulation existed because it was never fucking written!? The very tone I read this line in pretty much confirms to me you really didn't give a shit about the situation and sounds more like some strict teacher with a ten foot barge pole up her arse telling some kids off for not writing something on the blackboard in a specific manner.

Oh, but this is only the start of where things really piss me off.

Quote:
I also agree that banning is a steep step for an unwritten rule which is why I didn't impose a proper ban. Appropriate punishment for deliberate rule breaking would be a ban from trading, which is where and how the breach occurred, rather than from the Adoption Centre itself which isn't used all that much.
So we have here an agreement that a ban is a steep step, but then you go on immediately to say you gave them..."an improper ban."

Is it a ban, or is it not? Make up your damn mind...

You then go on to dictate The Punishment for "deliberate rule breaking" which is fair enough, with a ban from trading for an undefined period of time. Nothing wrong there, admittedly, aside from the fact this 'rule breach' was accidental.

Quote:
I have no interest in making this difficult which is why I requested the Pok閙on in question be removed from kawaii's team and that both members involved must wait an extra couple of months before adopting again.
More like you had no interest at all, then go on to go back on your word that it wasn't a ban when in reality it actually is a proper AC ban, you twit.

Quote:
I probably would have let it go if not that I was approached by another newer member who wasn't happy about the trade.
EXCUSE ME WHAT THE FUCK

How the fuck can you be proud of yourself for hitting two newcomers with the FB equivalent of a red card each for breaking a rule, which has been stated repeatedly wasn't officially written down? Had you made them aware of the stipulation and warned them not to do it again, that would be acceptable. Would you have let it go if the likes of MM or another older member had came to you and questioned you on the fact? Can you honestly answer that question truthfully?

Quote:
If it bothers somebody enough to approach us in the first place then it's safe to assume they are not the only one bothered by it.
Yes, it would be safe to assume that other people would be bothered about it. A good number of us elsewhere discussing the ban had the exact same opinion in that this was bullshit.

Quote:
To date I've held off on making this a rule as I've been relying on people's sense of fairness to keep it in check
and this sentence alone proves to me that you no longer seem qualified enough to run this game with the level of control you currently have as game adminstrator.

The most important thing anyone should do when contemplating their rules is to consider every possible quibble and bypass. By stating you had no consideration on making this an official rule based on common sense really says to me you have none of it yourself. When it comes to transfer and obtainment of assets in an RPG, it's vital to make note of what could be done with said assets and to clearly dictate said assets to ALL players, new and old.

Quote:
A recently adopted Pok閙on (of less than 31 days) can no longer be traded to a member who is currently not eligible to adopt. Doing so will incur a three month Adoption Centre and Cable Club ban, and the Pok閙on will be returned to the Adoption Centre.
Only now you've made this a rule, which by all of your accounts renders you a saint and trustworthy person in regards to this stagnant game.

No it doesn't.

Quote:
Kawaii and Dracos, if you can tell me in all honesty that you truly didn't feel there wasn't something wrong about trading when there was a currently imposed waiting period in play then I'll take you at your word.
You condescending, authoritarian, sarcastic bitch.

How someone who runs a game with such bitter disdain towards their members can speak down to them like some sort of fucking nanny can expect others to respect them as the boss is beyond human comprehension, but what really seals the deal is the little bit afterwards.

Quote:
Kawaii, you can keep the Seedot.
"You've been very naughty children for breaking rules I didn't clarify properly, and you should be ashamed of yourselves, but I will be kind and let you keep that teddy bear, but the two of you are grounded for a week."

Our Fizzy Bubbles moderator, everyone!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Between the blatantly obvious lack of time you have, the opaqueness of discussion behind the scenes in regards to progress in this glorified Zynga post-by-post role playing game, the sheer masses of red tape that puts Brussels to shame regarding rules, regulations and staffing, and your rather horrid attitude, I can no longer claim that this game is working and the staff have the level of confidence to run it without it seeming like a chore. The lack of updates notwithstanding (which in itself is a definitive sign of stagnation), right now FB is a game of weekly chores and more peer-to-peer roleplaying than actual progressional roleplaying, and quite frankly it's no longer what I consider fun. The only reason I'm still here is because of the very few members of the comunity who are trying very hard to breathe some semblance of life into something that right now is starting to smell a little with all those flies buzzing around and maggots here and there.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:32 AM   #39168
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I think they really should have gotten off with a warning. A temporary ban from the A.C. is still a ban. Yes, we can argue all day about what Dracos and Kawaii should have known, but at the end of the day, they didn't break any established rules.

As for the pace of the game, perhaps the hiring of extra mods is in order?
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:41 AM   #39169
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i-
i can't breathe
you all have been really kind to me.
Raves you make some good points
also
REASONS WHY PEOPLE LIKE MM SHOULD BE MODS
um
thank you guys
*hugs*
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:44 AM   #39170
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I think MM would be a great mod. He's been here since the dawn of time and is incredibly nice.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:57 AM   #39171
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SHOUT IT ALL LOUDER FOR THE MODS IN THE BACK.

I have nothing else to add, except for the fact that we all know who the salty newer member is who caused this shitstorm in the first place, whether their identity is divulged or not. Fizzby's been in need of an overhaul long before I caused a riot in 2013, and here we are again.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:15 AM   #39172
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salty new member?
nop
no idea
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:33 AM   #39173
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Yeah quite frankly the issue here is a bit less about the rule itself than it is the handling of the situation given that the rule amounted to a bit of know-how never properly written down. You cannot expect a rule to be treated as such unless you outright say so. This is why us programmers "idiot-proof" our programs (only so called in the compsci department because the way the professors check the integrity of your code is to actually act like an idiot and ignore any directions given to check for ways the code might break): make one request of the user that isn't totally clear, and some user is bound to fuck it up in a way that wrecks your code, to which the prope reaction for the coder is to make their program more robust (the nice way to say git gud at your idiot-proofing) rather than to just shout at that one user for being a moron (which they aren't, because you as the programmer gave bad directions).

Though I do have to give special attention to the attempted moral compass justification and point out that no, unwritten FB rules are not part of natural moral law, so without any indication, there would be no reason for either member to feel as if something was wrong. And again, we all know who this new member is who complained. There's no need for anonymity because there's not enough new people besides those involved in this fiasco for it to work, and also the fact that not many people are really going to change their opinions of them because quite frankly they were formed from prior experience and the user has shown no reason for them to be changed. Yes, Raves may have worded a little strongly, but I believe at least a portion of it was warranted because quite frankly if you're going to demand that we respect you as an authority, we'd like that you respect us as people of human intelligence, not expecting us to be capable of something we have no way of knowing and certainly not thinking us fool enough to accept flimsy justification.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:37 AM   #39174
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Since this argument is erupting, I’ll throw in my few cents on this matter and a few Raves pointed out.

I do to some extent understand the principle of the rule and why it wasn’t ever properly written down. We have a rule put in place that you can only adopt once a month. What kawaii and Dracos did counted as circumventing this rule. While there was no rule against this circumvention, I can understand that a little common sense would have dictated that what they did wasn’t entirely okay. But again, this is only if they understood the reason behind the once-a-month adoption’. As I understood it, this slip-around is something that was technically ‘allowed but looked down upon’, as in; you could do it but don’t expect people to like it. After all, the person they’re trading with is sacrificing their ‘once-a-month’ adoption for another player. So I understand why this rule was never officially written down; because I never actually saw it as an actual rule, more like a small sense of decency.

The way I’m reading this is that the mods didn’t have any problem with it until this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by enchantress View Post
I probably would have let it go if not that I was approached by another newer member who wasn't happy about the trade. If it bothers somebody enough to approach us in the first place then it's safe to assume they are not the only one bothered by it.
I think some of us can guess who this might have been, but let me point out that while it’s not flawed to think others might have been bothered by this, a lot more people are bothered by how it was handled.

The real flaw here I think is how the mods have handled it when they did decide to intervene. The rule wasn’t written down, and this infraction was done by people who have shown no previous rule-bending behaviour – they were newcomers who made a small mistake. Fairest thing to do would have been to inform them of their mistake and warn them not to do it again. Punishment should be doled out to those who deliberately or continuously violate the rules, not those who made an honest mistake. Withholding the Seedot until kawaii could theoretically adopt again would have been fair I guess – withholding it for three months and giving them a ban from trading or the AC however, is not.

To add to that, I agree with Raves’ sentiment concerning the tone of the mods’ response in this chat. It reeks of someone trying to dictate and boss people around rather than a leader or a community member. I don’t get the idea that many members are being treated as equals or such.

-----
Might as well tackle the other situation that's been brought up:

Time and time again the mods have explained how busy they are and why they can’t always focus on FB because of their real lives. Yet for years the mods are persistent when it comes to taking the sole responsibility of (1)Egg Houses, (2)Casino, (3)Base shops, (4)Birthday Calendar, (5)Adoption Centre and (6) the FB Staff Market, while also handling some of the other generic shops. On top of that, they bear the responsibility of the Dream World, the Arcane Realm and Glacier Island; all of which haven’t seen an update by a mod since 2015! Yet as I’ve understood, not all of these zones are allowed to be handed over to other members. The Arcane Realm for instance, where newcomers are supposed to start for some reason, desperately needs people to take over the adventures that are there, both new and ongoing ones, since we realistically can't expect it to be moving forward otherwise.

A lot of people have quit contributing to this game and FB has been dying as a roleplaying forum ever since. While zones remain stagnant everywhere (and I won’t exclude myself as being part of that problem), the mods decided to close registration for the longest time, practically cutting of the influx of new members which we desperately needed. And when registration was re-opened and we needed a strong focus back to roleplaying and getting new updators, the mods have done practically nothing about that, instead opting to let FB bleed out a little further. Instead of promoting updating or relaxing the rules on becoming an updator – generating interest overall, we get handed items a few times a year. Items we should be getting from roleplaying but are too restricted in handing out, items belonging to FB aspects that are no longer running, items we should be getting through roleplaying but have decided to hand out in shops instead. Basically, instead of doing anything that would promote roleplaying and getting rewarded for that, it’s been decided that everything should be handed out freely constantly, regardless of whether it would actually have any use (since the TCG Corner and Contest Halls are closed) or we would actually use it (since we’re not RP’ing). We give out eggs like they’re nothing to the point we’re creating a market and adoption centre for the en masse obtaining of them, yet we're not allowed to use them as plot devices in adventures which can take over a year; we have a casino which has to be played to get TMs and Bases; and we have Daycare Centres because “f*ck if we’re ever going to actually switch to RP’ing training regimes and upping the reward for that”.

FB is nothing more than a shop-simulator; a Sim game in which people obtain currency, spend currency and hoard purchases. FB is NOT a place any more that’s focussing on roleplaying – there is no way in hell you can claim it is. FB has dropped significantly and it needs to adapt to its new climate. It has to start back from scratch; closing the shops, closing the weird reward systems, quit giving out free items and Pok閙on and instead hand out occasional incentives for updating and roleplaying (you know, like what ASB and WF have been doing). And it’s nice that you’re trying to arrange things like the Pok镻elago, but honestly with the time it takes to get that thing running it’s not something that should be focussed on as it can’t realistically be finished with the resources FB currently has. I’d much more prefer GenVII was just implemented straight away, no event, and that the mods focussed on getting others to help out more.

Right now, FB needs a huge overhaul and people who have the time to implement it. It’s not that we don’t understand the mods are busy, it’s that we don’t understand why they’re not taking steps to relieve some of that burden and hand over powers and responsibilities to others.
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Last edited by Ex-Admiral Insane; 03-31-2017 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:37 AM   #39175
Meetan
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Originally Posted by kawaiiconcept View Post
salty new member?
nop
no idea
Side note Kawaii, you really should join the proper Fizzy Bubbles discord. It's actually active, and while heavily salty, we're all friends there and it's not somewhere to try and use and manipulate people to one's whims etc. I can shoot you along an invite if you like! It's been full of support for you since the issue arose. <3
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