It's time to D-D-D-D-DDDDUEL

[Fallen Icarus]

Did I hear someone say Earth type Machine Monsters? Fortress? :3

[Doppleganger]

WTF IS THIS CARD?

On DN...

Originally Posted by Dueling Network

Great Old One Cthuga
4 Stars / Synchro / Fire / PYRO
2200/200

1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
If this card is Synchro Summoned: You can return all Rank 4 Xyz Monsters on the field to the Extra Deck. If this card is used as a Fusion Material Monster for a Fusion Summon: Draw 1 card. An Xyz Monster that was Summoned using this card as an Xyz Material gains this effect.
● When it is Xyz Summoned: Draw 1 card.

[Kindrindra]

>Anti Rank 4 tech
Well that's... Cool. Although Level 4 Synchro isn't the easiest if I'm not mistaken. Also wow that card is weird. You can summon it, nuke the opponent's Rank 4s, then Fusion or XYZ it to +1 your hand. And the latter is easy because. Well. Rank 4.

[Doppleganger]

It's the best Level 4 Synchro even with the worthless type and attribute because:

-2200 attack without restrictions means it's a good beatstick, and the highest among the Level 4 Synchros
-the XYZ nuke doesn't target, and it's a great way to remove Evilswarm Ophion without the heavy minus (and allows attacking right after that)
-the Fusion bonus activates anywhere and even if your opponent fuses with it, so you can never minus if it's used as part of a fusion

The only downside from those draw effects is you can't draw if you synchro with it again. All in all a great (creeped) but not broken card, it needs to be TCG/OCG legal!

[Emi]

Originally Posted by Fallen Icarus

Did I hear someone say Earth type Machine Monsters? Fortress? :3

*claps slowly as he waits for Icky to actually read the cards*

Apoqliphoth Killer is broken I've just realized. Gonna see a lot of Cyber Dragons running around.

[Doppleganger]

Why Cydras? For Fortress Dragon?

Oh, also. Victory #1

[Emi]

Fortress Dragon is the only realistic out to that card for most decks. When its immune to Spells, Traps, the effects of Level/Rank 9 and lower monsters, is a psuedo 3500 ATK / 3100 DEF monster, and consistently causes a -1 for you opponent.

And you can bring it out turn 1 for no minus.

[Doppleganger]

Well, that's also balanced by the fact that it's a slow attacker. The main problem is that most decks don't have an inherent out to it - Rank 4 in particular is screwed, which is great, but even I with my Synchro options kind of struggle against something like that protected by backrow. Any deck that can handle Herald of Perfection or The Ultimate Herald should have similar options against that.

Incidentally, the guy I beat above played 3 cards the whole game, after opting to go first: Odd-Eyes Pendulum Dragon to search out Timegazer, and Leo in face-down mode after I exploded the field with Librarian. I presume his hand had nothing but monsters, and he was still waiting to draw Stargazer to flood the field.

[Emi]

>Something like that protected by backrow

...what do you even run that can stop this card? There are so few options its insane.

[Doppleganger]

Actually, I had a hunch and looked in the database, and it seems Konami is one step ahead of me. Wyarm the fusion monster is also the perfect counter to it. How Killer's effect reads is similar to the Forbidden Lance v. Creature Swap scenario, where if you Lance a monster, you can select it for an option with Swap and fizzle Swap because your monster is unaffected by spells (while previously, I thought you were not allowed to select the card once Lance took place, but this is a misconception). So if you have a monster that is "unaffected by monster effects" like Wyarm, you can select it over and over when Killer's effect triggers and it won't go to the grave. At the same time, Killer can't run over it no matter what.

Prideful Roar is also a great, classic option for something like this. Roar used to be good against Ophion back in the day but it's even better against Killer since it pretty much says "fudge you" to the Pendulum boosts. Roar wasn't good against the Heralds but then again the Heralds are stupid.

[Emi]

Wyarm won't work depending on the Pendulum monsters in the zone. Some of them lower the ATK of your opponent's monsters and are considered spells.

I didn't think of Prideful Roar, but even still I think its a bit much to make decks run that (or Cyber Dragon for that matter) to counter just one card. I think Killer is bannable because of how easy he is to get out, but the deck still is insane without it. The deck itself has a great tributing mechanic (thinking about it more, card text does say when something needs to be sent by a card effect, game mechanics are written in the same langauge) and they have ridiculous synergy. They work with all 3 Drain Cards, have a Graveyard-banishing card, access to the bloody Fiends and Ruler, the entirety of the Monarch archetype etc etc. It's just nuts.

[Doppleganger]

I love this format and I LOVE the new rules.



The first turn draw has been immeasurably helpful in the early goings - the banlist made my deck more consistent, and the decreased incidence of threats has also made plays more consistent. I can explode the field early and afford to wait out combo pieces with backrow, no more need to turbo draw everything with Reckless or Upstart.

Also, the above field is really ridiculous. In my hand was a Tricky, Hanewata, Doppelwarrior, and Junk Synchron with Stardust Dragon and Librarian on the field. The options to optimally summon were:

A: Level 10, Level 5, Level 5
B: Level 10, Level 8, Level 5
C: Level 12, Level 8 (though I didn't run SQD)
D: Level 8, Level 7, Level 5, Level 5
E: Level 8, Level 6, Level 5, Level 5
F: Level 10, Rank 5
G: Level 8, Level 7, Rank 5

Just fantastic. That is what it feels like to be in the driver's seat. It's been a long time!

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I love this format and I LOVE the new rules.

The first turn draw has been immeasurably helpful in the early goings - the banlist made my deck more consistent, and the decreased incidence of threats has also made plays more consistent. I can explode the field early and afford to wait out combo pieces with backrow, no more need to turbo draw everything with Reckless or Upstart.

Wait, what happened? Last I heard, a rather meager banlist had been revealed and you were discussing which new cards you would need to add to your deck to do well anymore. Furthermore, you seemed to be really against the new rule which would forbid Player 1 from drawing on his first turn. Now you're talking about a "first turn draw," which confuses me. (Do you mean "first turn no draw"?) And you're acting giddy as a schoolgirl over the format. Who all was banned that has made the format so radically different? I don't remember you guys suggesting anything along the lines of "Shadolls? Murdered. Artifacts? Murdered. Hands? Banned." So I don't understand why you've gone from Hell to Heaven. Explain.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Talon87

Wait, what happened? Last I heard, a rather meager banlist had been revealed and you were discussing which new cards you would need to add to your deck to do well anymore. Furthermore, you seemed to be really against the new rule which would forbid Player 1 from drawing on his first turn. Now you're talking about a "first turn draw," which confuses me. (Do you mean "first turn no draw"?) And you're acting giddy as a schoolgirl over the format. Who all was banned that has made the format so radically different? I don't remember you guys suggesting anything along the lines of "Shadolls? Murdered. Artifacts? Murdered. Hands? Banned." So I don't understand why you've gone from Hell to Heaven. Explain.

The best way to illustrate why I've gone 180 on the new rules is to consider Torrential Tribute.

You can only have one in your deck. It can't be searched, so the only way to get it into your hand and onto the field is to draw it. Most of its power comes from flipping it when the opponent has 2+ monsters on the field, resulting anywhere from a +1 to a +4, and the opponent is usually at their most defenseless early in the game while getting their engines to rev. Like drawing Heavy Storm, as a rough analogy, Torrential is only useful if you draw it the first turn, and the opponent not only can't stop it, but they have to expose themselves to begin their game.

If you only draw 5 cards, you are first of all limiting the opportunities for you to acquire Torrential, if you aren't using the thinning cards like Upstart Goblin. At the same time, the opponent also has a +1 to use to answer Torrential even if you happen to draw it.

With my deck, the -1 going first hurts a bit, but in general I can plus enough to make up for it rather quickly, and then there's diminishing returns for answers. You don't need a set 5 field to beat the opponent, you just need to empty the opponent of cards. If they only have two moves, and you block both and have an option to block a third, blocking the third never really comes into play.

But, unlike a lot of other decks that MUST GO FIRST, with good backrow protection I can afford to be patient if necessary. The good aggro stun decks in the past were like this: throw out a generic set 4/TKRO and stun the opponent until you draw your deck components.

Of the games I've played, there was only one where I wasn't sacked, technically. It was against Dragonsworn and I didn't draw a Maxx "C" until it was too late, and the guy was able to abuse two Dragon Rulers, a Lightray and Judgment Dragon to screw with me. Which could be called a sack, but eh. With one more backrow card I could have won the game.

[phoopes]

Ah yes, Qliphoths. If I ever get around to finishing the deck I started making I'd definitely like to try them out. I think the most interesting one is Qliphoth Tool, because it counts as a Normal Monster but still has an effect since it's a Pendulum, lol. Sort of having a love/hate relationship with the Yugioh power creep... Definitely some cool things to try out but sometimes it feels like I'm playing a completely different game than when I was a kid.

[Doppleganger]

After some bouts I think Qliphoths are intimidating, especially with Summoner's Art making them searchable. We're in a strange meta where half the decks are backrow focused, the other half face-up spell focused, so there aren't many good options for mass plus to get rid of those cards.

Fought a Yang Zing player. Once he burnt his Dark Hole it was pretty easy to stomp over it, since all he did was try to defend.

[phoopes]

I'll be on DN for a bit. Don't be mad if I don't know all the intricacies of Pendulums yet ;_;

[Doppleganger]

Qliphort Tool and Apoqliphort are the only broken parts of the Pendulums so far.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Qliphort Tool and Apoqliphort are the only broken parts of the Pendulums so far.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ... I dunno ... having played phoopes earlier, I lost pretty soundly (on the sixth overall turn of the game, phoopes' third turn, the life points score 4800 to 0 iirc), and I had had a god hand too. (Bear, Gorilla, multiple Tenkis ...) Maybe we didn't apply the rules correctly, but the way that we played, Pendulums struck me as a rather broken archetype.

One thing that makes them so especially potent is the fact that nearly every time they are destroyed they go to the Extra Deck rather than the graveyard; and from here, they are eligible to be Pendulum Summoned. That's pretty fucking ridiculous. It's a bit like Dragon Rulers on steroids.

TBH, I'm surprised you're so happy right now. I can't imagine your deck fairing much better against phoopes' than mine did. You can get up to speed by Turn 3, but you usually experience some hiccups along the way and require a slower opening to really flourish. Pendulums seem to shit all over that for you, applying heavy pressure right out the door. I don't really see how your deck can handle the strain. Maybe I'll need to watch you in action.

[Doppleganger]

Spacetime Trap Hole saved me several times against Qliphorts, I got one of the guys I faced to -3 when he blew his load trying to summon Killer. BTH, D-Prison and the Chaos cards have been useful against everything except Killer. However, I get the same impression of endless resources that original Dragon Rulers gave against this deck, specifically because of Tool. Tool is so highly searchable, and it makes every other Qliphort searchable as well. Without it, the Level 6-7 Qliphort Pendulums can't come to the field, because you can't Pendulum summon a monster as the same level as your scale, meaning 6 of the 15 Qliphorts cannot be summoned without Tool.

Given how the Pendulums work, it as the lowest level monster is essential to spam the field, along with the Level 8 Qliphort, and even if you respond immediately to Tool, they can search out another with Summoner's Art and then +1 off it's search again!

This means that, barring some mass Spell interference (with is either situational or banned) or two lucky MSTs, which leave you exposed to generic trap cards, the pressure is on you to either plus very hard in a short amount of time to put the game out of reach in sheer advantage (which I can do) or to minus them heavily with one card, as I did with Spacetime Trap Hole.

Apoqliphort is just retarded. It's fundamentally a chainable, free and selective +2.

Shaddolls have Secret Village of the Spellcasters, too. Although I dunno if they'll run it, though in theory it's just as bad as Kaiser Colosseum in Bujins.

[Doppleganger]

I beat this guy but honestly I think he misplayed. I'm not familiar with these new HERO cards but what has been frightening to me lately is their ability to spam Masked HERO Acid, which would have screwed me over if he pulled it off. I managed to stun his WHOLE FIELD however. The only card I had left I hadn't flipped was a D-Prison. 3/4 backrow were burned, but that's how you leave an enemy with 0 cards on the field.

Love Yazi. He's definitely an awesome, versatile Synchro, especially with the protection of backrow cards. He and Armades have been money.

[Doppleganger]

I've just decided that Qliphorts in general are dumb.

I beat a guy who Normal Summoned Qliphort Archive, but there were a few problems with that.

-When Normal Summoned, it's still a beastick at 1800 attack. This is incredibly stupid and a big reason why YGO is so aggro focused, every combo monster retains the ability to swipe almost 1/4 of the enemy's life points in a direct attack
-I didn't know Archive is immune to Level 3 or lower effects, so there is unknown interaction between it and say Mist Bird Clausolas (which negates effects). Intuitively you think Clausolas should fail, right? But then again maybe not, since it's a negation effect.
-The opponent had Enemy Controller, simply tributing Archive for that not only allows you to steal an opponent's monster, but makes controller and unstoppable Compulsory too due to Archive's effect. And you can't Debunk the stupid card either since no cards exist that negate effects specifically in the EXTRA deck

Worst cards in the archetype: Tool, Archive

[Emi]

The Monarchs storm Forth makes Qlilphoth incredibly dumb.

Also Killer.

[Doppleganger]

Doesn't seem as bad to me, can't be used the same turn as Pendulum and you can block it with Lance if you've only got one monster.

[Emi]

Lance only works if you have one monster though. So it turns into very consistent monster removal for the most part.