Pokémon Sun and Moon General Discussion [Spoiler Warning]

[Rangeet]

Except "against" doesn't matter because it's not a downgrade of any sort if there's an entire forum to discuss something instead of a single thread.

It's like if there were twenty people on UPN who wanted a Shipping Forum and eighty people who thought "Nah, we can keep it in a single thread." The eighty people can discuss it just as well on an entire forum as in a thread, so the people who actually matter are the ones who want to discuss it in-depth.

Also Dave literally just mentioned he's "not opposed to it at all" but doesn't want it to become a slippery slope like SPPf. I hardly think there's any danger of that if we do the logical thing of creating one new subforum to discuss new pokemon games and only new pokemon games.

[Snorby]

Yeah I've gotta agree with what Geet's saying. Sure there's an equal amount of people saying that it should be considered and that it doesn't NEED to be/shouldn't be, but using that as a reason to not do anything is pretty crappy reasoning. For one, it puts people who essentially don't care either way (FishDave) with people who seem to think it's an objectively bad idea for whatever reason (Ironthunder). If you take people like FishDave out of the equation, those who support considering this as a potential route to go are in the majority far and away. Additionally, there will be some people who, without a forum, simply will at some point be unable to discuss S/M at all without being spoiled about things they don't want to be spoiled for. No one's put at any kind of risk by making a Forum, only by leaving it the way it is.

Rather than clambering onto a high horse and telling the filthy peons who disagree with you that they're wasting their time or trying to change how numbers work to support your argument, you could just let people discuss something that literally nothing but benefit can stem from. Unless of course you can think of some way having a whole subforum as opposed to one thread you're forced to cram absolutely everything in negatively impacts your Pre-Release experience.

[dirkac]

The thing is though, is an entire Gen VII Subforum necessary?

UPN is definitely not active enough to really have one, and though it would allow for more specialized Threads, is that really necessary, considering that this Thread is only as active as it is because of discussions like these.

I just think that right now, its unnecessary when his Thread is for all intents and purposes good enough.

[Schala]

Originally Posted by dirkac

The thing is though, is an entire Gen VII Subforum necessary?

UPN is definitely not active enough to really have one, and though it would allow for more specialized Threads, is that really necessary, considering that this Thread is only as active as it is because of discussions like these.

I just think that right now, its unnecessary when his Thread is for all intents and purposes good enough.

I think the main difference between the two is that people can choose which spoilers they want to see/discuss in a subforum, whereas a single thread contains any and all spoilers. For instance, Talon has stated that he only wanted to see certain spoilers (starters, box legends, and region name/inspiration/map) and no others. The benefit of a subforum is that Talon (and any other similar minded person) could still be a part of Gen VII discussion while only being partially spoiled, rather than having to choose whether to be completely spoiled or not discuss anything Gen VII related.

I don't know how many people only want partial spoilers versus those that want all or none, but if there's a decent amount of them, then a subforum would better accommodate them. It also wouldn't change anything for people who want to avoid spoilers (other than ignoring the subforum rather than a single thread), and shouldn't be anything more than a minor inconvenience at worst to people okay with all spoilers (other than making sure they keep each type of spoiler in its thread, they are free to discuss spoilers to their hearts content).

[Talon87]

I'm kind of a bad example because I really don't need more threads in which to discuss. I have less than two weeks before Sad Times Fanart Blackout has to start for me, and I'm pretty satisfied with what we got to discuss of all the things I already saw. Seriously, my role in this discussion has been 100% for the benefit of others. I have friends who like or even love spoilers, and I saw some of you pondering whether a subforum could work / would be better. And I weighed in with my own thoughts. That's all. Kuno could lock this thread tomorrow and ban all Gen 7 discussion until December and I'd be mostly unaffected.

[DaveTheFishGuy]

Yeah putting myself on record as not really caring either way, before people think I'm really leaning one way or t'other.

[deoxys]

This got a little out of hand... it was only ever brought up in the first place because we were looking for solutions to the spoiler discussion problem that would keep everyone happy, though, maybe there was never a real problem to begin with, and not everyone'should grievances will be able to be placated. It is definitely true that UPN is small enough that this thread should be more than enough for now. If more boatloads of news comes out down the road and it somehow becomes too much, then maybe the forum can cross that bridge when it comes to it, but that probably won't happen regardless.

It isn't like there is an effective ban on spoilers throughout the forum. And it's true, we had all of the same exact policies in place for XY, no avatar and sig spoilers etc., and it worked out fine in the end.

[Mercutio]

I'm sorry is noone going to comment on the snakes on a plane joke Gamefreak is making?

EDIT: Oh no wait they're just pop stars as Pokémon characters. Derp.

[Heather]

personally I like the idea of the sub forum simply as a general thing for any new gen rather than just Gen VII. When we decide spoilers are okay we can move the threads out to the general Pokemon Forum and maybe merge some things. Also keen on the idea of creating groups for spoiler okay/not okay people to make the sub forum visible or not.

[Zelphon]

If you don't want spoilers don't go to literally the only thread where they're allowed and are of the primary subject matter...

No I haven't read any of the other comments....I don't see the need for a new forum as one thread is enough.

[Rangeet]

Zelphon, if you're not going to read any of the other posts, I'm confused as to why you think anyone will give a single fuck about your post.

[Zelphon]

I just post, if people give a fuck that's their decision.

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II

personally I like the idea of the sub forum simply as a general thing for any new gen rather than just Gen VII. When we decide spoilers are okay we can move the threads out to the general Pokemon Forum and maybe merge some things. Also keen on the idea of creating groups for spoiler okay/not okay people to make the sub forum visible or not.

This doesn't seem like a bad idea to me, personally.

[Sneaze]

I'm sorry but this conversation is idiotic. We've been doing it this way for god knows how long now and people haven't had a problem. We shouldn't be alienating members of our community just because they want to remain unspoiled, it's that simple. As for allowing a full blown subforum? HA. Like anyone can claim to be able to keep things worded properly as thread titles so that they are incredibly vague enough as to not spoil people who can see the title from the front page thanks to it being the newest post, yet relevant enough that people looking at the spoilers will know what it's about beforehand. And I know the response here. "Just have a mod post all the new spoilers!" What? So you want to have to wait to discuss any given topic on a time delay of whenever the spoilers mod is available to post? No, I'm sorry the entire debate is completely pointless.

[Heather]

Originally Posted by Sneaze

I'm sorry but this conversation is idiotic.

Except it isn't?

We've been doing it this way for god knows how long now and people haven't had a problem.

That's not a reason to stifle discussion, though. There's two possible outcomes to this discussion, we either make something better (cool shit), or our ideas aren't so great (good thing we have this to fall back on, then). One is cool, the other is no harm done.

We shouldn't be alienating members of our community just because they want to remain unspoiled, it's that simple.

I don't see how a sub forum alienates anyone.

As for allowing a full blown subforum? HA. Like anyone can claim to be able to keep things worded properly as thread titles so that they are incredibly vague enough as to not spoil people who can see the title from the front page thanks to it being the newest post, yet relevant enough that people looking at the spoilers will know what it's about beforehand.

Idk, I think Talon did a good job.

And I know the response here. "Just have a mod post all the new spoilers!" What? So you want to have to wait to discuss any given topic on a time delay of whenever the spoilers mod is available to post? No, I'm sorry the entire debate is completely pointless.

All this has been addressed earlier.

[Jerichi]

Okay so we definitely don't have enough to talk about right now to justify a new forum and we didn't have this problem with the last release so ya'll are getting your knickers in a bunch for no real reason.

Can we please discuss the games instead of flooding the thread with this meta discussion about spoilers?

[Zelphon]

With the Grass starter being a bird I wonder if we'll still have a regional this time around.

They have had a boner for messing with the formula as of late after all.

[Missingno. Master]

I'm sure we'll have a regional bird. It's true they've been screwing with the formula in recent years, but somehow I'm pretty sure there's certain things that'll stay the same- Pidgey equivalents, Rattata equivalents, Pikaclones, pseudo-legendaries, things of that nature.

[Miror]

Originally Posted by Zelphon

With the Grass starter being a bird I wonder if we'll still have a regional this time around.

They have had a boner for messing with the formula as of late after all.

I would suspect that the 3D model that they were working on in the first Sun and Moon trailer is probably the basic stage of the regional bird line, but given the fact that it was just a model who knows if it ever came to fruition.

[Snorby]

Yeah see the point of the regional bird is to give everyone easy access to a flier. Replacing that with a starter means only 1/3 of people get easy access to a flier. That's not happening imo.

[Talon87]

There's more to the idea of "regional bird," though, than simply "it's a bird and it's in the region. :>" When most people think "regional bird," they also think:

• it's Flying/Normal (at the beginning, at least)
• it can be found on the very first route with tall grass

People don't think of Spearow or Doduo as quote unquote "regional birds." People don't think of Natu or Swablu as "regional birds." The regional birds, Pidgey, Hoothoot, Taillow, Starly, Pidove, and Fletchling, are all Flying/Normals found on their respective regions' earliest route with tall grass.

So it's quite conceivable that you could have a game with non-starter birds but also no regional bird. Because the game would simply not present you with any birds until after a certain point in the game (suppose after Gym 3). And it wouldn't inconvenience you any Fly-wise because the game simply wouldn't give you Fly until after that point anyway.

The above's some more devil's advocacy though. I agree that we're not only likely to get a regional bird in Alola but that it's more than likely going to be the bird whose wire frame we saw in the very first SM trailer.

[Median Dia]

Hoenn kind of blows the regional bird concept away already, if we're going by those standards. The first flying/normal type in the game (taillow) doesn't become available until the fourth route, and even then it's only at a 10% encounter rate (or 5% in the remakes, for some stupid reason). Wingull crops up earlier, more commonly, and (unfortunately) everywhere, so it better fits the role of utility flier than everyone's favorite chocolate thief. Though both are available before the first gym, so I guess that doesn't matter in the long run.

I really wouldn't be surprised if they delayed the normal flier's debut again this time, assuming they still make it available before gym 1. It'll provide some slight connection between the two tropical regions, at least!

[dirkac]

You also couldn't get Pidove until Route 3 'x'

And yeah in Hoenn Wingull was wayyy more omnipresent.

But whatever.


I'm more interested in what exactly trailerbirb will be type-wise?

[Talon87]

Good points about the "earliest route with tall grass" bullet not quite working, but your point about Taillow vs. Wingull seems to prove the importance of the bird the fandom settles on as "regional bird" being Normal/Flying. (At least when you first meet them. [/Fletchinder being a C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER])

Something else that might reinforce regional bird perceptions is the anime. With Ash "always catching the regional bird," if fans disagree on who the regional bird should be (e.g. let's say RuSa came out in 2016 and the fandom was the way it was today. We would totally expect there to be arguments over whether the bird should be Taillow or Wingull), the anime can help to give the one group of fans leverage over the others. "Hey, Ash caught a Pidgeotto. Pidgey confirmed for Kanto's regional bird. Hey, Ash caught a Taillow. Taillow confirmed for Hoenn's regional bird." With Ash owning a Pidgeot (released), Noctowl, Swellow, Staraptor, Unfezant, and Talonflame, the trend is clear -- to date, Ash has always owned the regional bird. If Alola has 2+ birds on early routes but Ash catches one of them and not the other(s), I expect it will reinforce perceptions of the one bird as the regional bird and the others as "birds that, while they also happen to belong to the region, are not the 'regional bird'."

[Median Dia]

That is a fair point as well. Now I'm curious, though- seeing as the bird Ash catches has been among the earliest pokemon revealed in the past few generations, which one of Hoenn's was revealed first? Or were they shown to the world at the same time?

Anyways, back to present times. Honestly, I'm difficulty telling if we're looking at Mr. Wireframe from front or the back, which could make the difference between it being a fat hummingbird (a potential fairy) or something else entirely.Either way, it's not going to get a whole lot of fanfare over secondary typing, since flying is one of the few types that has been paired with everything else already... It's artwork should crop up next month, though, so we should be able to make better speculation then. *Shrugs*