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Old 06-02-2016, 06:57 AM   #1551
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Universal basic income has been floated as a replacement for benefits for ages but runs into some pretty serious problems. If it's enough to cover the costs of the most in need (think heavily disabled people who need major assistance for day to day living) then it will cost more than any current system - because no-one's getting less than they are now and lots of people get more. If it isn't, then the worst off and most in need in society lose out. And if you try to account for that by say topping up the most in need and compensating for the extra cost by deducting from the wealthiest... that's not universal basic income anymore, that's what we already have; a means tested benefits system.

It's a nice idea but practically speaking completely unusable.
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Old 06-10-2016, 04:49 AM   #1552
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Trump sat on his ass all May and seems poised to do the exact same thing all June :') Trump has now not only lost my vote but the actual election itself. He had massive windows of opportunity which he could have used to crush Hillary completely. He has not. So he loses. This is hard to understate. He has a couple tiny, tiny windows in which he may be able to sway the undecideds + the people who follow the race closely, like me and some of the others in this thread, but he's most likely not going to be able to beat Hillary off that, not without "yuuuuuuge" amounts of public attention (which Hillary isn't going to let him get).

Welcome to 4 more years of corporations controlling the US government I guess. 4 more years of ISIS, 4 more years of uncontrolled government spending, 4 more years of drone strikes on civilians, and 4 more years of interventionism.

However, there are positives. We're gonna see a SHITLOAD of social progress and that really is a good thing. A woman president is nice, even if it's Hillary, and we're gonna be on good terms with most foreign nations - possibly better terms, since they'll be terrified of Trump gaining a foothold in the next election lol. So we'll see some peace and prosperity in the West even as the Middle East continues to devolve into chaos. Hopefully nothing horrible comes of that.

Trump's done for, politically. Hopefully his kids do okay with the businesses they've inherited - it seems that they all have sharp business sense so there should be no problems with the Trump legacy. The Don is most likely going to retire now cuz he is 70 years old and his kids have his businesses. He'll do well for himself.

It's kind of a shame. He set out to unite but all he managed to accomplish was division and strife. Hillary's divisive actions have been pretty shameful too.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:08 AM   #1553
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Hillary is not the official nominee until convention. There is a chance, however tiny, that Sanders will get it. And even if not, it's remarkable how high he polled and how powerful his campaign got for someone who has the media and corporations and the DNC itself heavily stacked against him. I doubt we'll ever know who would have triumphed in a real, fair race, but that's how money in politics works, I guess.

Not voting for either republican this race, so it really only leaves a third party for me to look into.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:45 AM   #1554
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Jill Stein wants Sanders to run Green Party, but I don't think he should do that. Unfortunately, the option for a third-party Sanders run was only open if Trump didn't get the nomination and ran third-party.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:20 AM   #1555
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Hillary is not the official nominee until convention. There is a chance, however tiny, that Sanders will get it. And even if not, it's remarkable how high he polled and how powerful his campaign got for someone who has the media and corporations and the DNC itself heavily stacked against him. I doubt we'll ever know who would have triumphed in a real, fair race, but that's how money in politics works, I guess.
If this isn't a real, fair race I'm not sure what you consider to be a truly real and fair race. Hillary didn't win off her connections, she won by bloating her campaign to become as appealing as possible to both the standard Democrat fare and the egalitarian Berniecrats. Strategywise, she won out over Bernie because she was willing to absorb all of the things Bernie was fighting for and add on a couple dozen things he wasn't willing to take a stance on. She came across as a courageous go-getter who would stick it to the establishment, who was also a woman. Bernie can't beat that.

Now, in the general? Hillary will have to rely on her connections. Her platform is so bloated that she can't absorb Republican positions without contradicting herself. Back in May, this meant that Trump was capable of stealing her thunder by becoming a socially progressive candidate, eating and tempering her strongly Leftist positions to seem even more generalist and appealing without losing his core voter base.

Hillary's path to victory is pretty easy; demonize Trump as the antithesis to liberty, equality, and freedom. Bigots and racists don't get elected, and Trump has given her enough ammunition to ride all the way to November off of sound bites and petty attacks. Low-effort campaigning means more effort spent on things that matter once in office.

Trump's is difficult but most of all requires significant turnaround on the "progress" hes made these last few months. It's possible we'll see a fully capable and genuinely competent President Trump come November...but I wouldn't book your flights to Canada just yet, its unlikely that Trump will do anything but try to buddy up to the Republican establishment the same way Hillary is buddying up to the Democrat establishment.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:56 AM   #1556
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Yep let's conveniently skip over the biased media and vote fraud that benefited Clinton.
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:10 AM   #1557
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Quote:
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If this isn't a real, fair race I'm not sure what you consider to be a truly real and fair race. Hillary didn't win off her connections
Which is exactly why her media connections have been hyping her for a year now, placing her as the assumed candidate for that long, and announcing she has the nomination clinched even though supers don't vote until the convention. And all the incidents piling up with voter registrations being miraculously changed, polling workers in CA being informed to give NPPs provisional ballots instead of Democratic cross-over ballots (independents can vote in Demo primaries in CA), oh, and the very night before the CA primaries, they announced she had it completely clinched, disenfranchising voters. Voting machine errors highly in her favour, the entire debacle in NV, her husband speaking in front of polling places, holding people up from being able to vote and endorsing her in close quarters to polling places, Sanders rallies being huge but getting almost no attention from mainstream media, etc, etc. One or two incidents can be handwaved, but when it stacks up like that, you can't brush it off so easily. While she may not be directly responsible, her allies and establishment and campaign are, and she's complicit in it. And since a candidate is not just a candidate, but an entire campaign, it can be very well held against her campaign as a whole when there's too many incidents to dismiss.

Quote:
She came across as a courageous go-getter who would stick it to the establishment, who was also a woman. Bernie can't beat that.
She is the establishment. She's bought and paid for by the establishment. She's White House royalty. She is anything but establishment.

And voting her her just because she's a woman is quite frankly sexist. I'd love to see a female president. I've voted for a female candidate before. Just not Hillary.

Also, please read the bold in this quote and then in the quote below and mark the contradictions

Quote:
It's possible we'll see a fully capable and genuinely competent President Drumpf come November...but I wouldn't book your flights to Canada just yet, its unlikely that Drumpf will do anything but try to buddy up to the Republican establishment the same way Hillary is buddying up to the Democrat establishment.
EDIT: Oh, and it also seems to me that even Trump is less of a flip-flopper and more consistent in expressed beliefs than Clinton

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Old 06-10-2016, 07:40 AM   #1558
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Which is exactly why her media connections have been hyping her for a year now, placing her as the assumed candidate for that long, and announcing she has the nomination clinched even though supers don't vote until the convention. And all the incidents piling up with voter registrations being miraculously changed, polling workers in CA being informed to give NPPs provisional ballots instead of Democratic cross-over ballots (independents can vote in Demo primaries in CA), oh, and the very night before the CA primaries, they announced she had it completely clinched, disenfranchising voters. Voting machine errors highly in her favour, the entire debacle in NV, her husband speaking in front of polling places, holding people up from being able to vote and endorsing her in close quarters to polling places, Sanders rallies being huge but getting almost no attention from mainstream media, etc, etc. One or two incidents can be handwaved, but when it stacks up like that, you can't brush it off so easily. While she may not be directly responsible, her allies and establishment and campaign are, and she's complicit in it. And since a candidate is not just a candidate, but an entire campaign, it can be very well held against her campaign as a whole when there's too many incidents to dismiss.
Sanders made a strong enough showing to eat up her publicity time and to me that's enough of a foot in the door for him to win out over Hillary.

Part of the problem is that he is a crusty old white guy who looks like he spends his afternoons drinking coffee a McDonald's in a wealthy suburb. But more seriously, he's fighting to secure the attention and love of leftist voters. In leftist politics, your identity matters just as much as your ideology. Perhaps even more than your ideology. And despite Sanders' strong voting record, he was easy prey thanks to being an old white guy who opposed gun control bills.

Even with the Hillary-controlled establishment, Bernie stood a real chance, and if he'd had a stronger campaign we might be seeing Sanders v Trump instead of Hillary v Trump.

And please, as much as I want to see Sanders win the nomination, we both know which way the superdelegates will vote.

Quote:
She is the establishment. She's bought and paid for by the establishment. She's White House royalty. She is anything but establishment.

And voting her her just because she's a woman is quite frankly sexist. I'd love to see a female president. I've voted for a female candidate before. Just not Hillary.
a.) perception, see below for more

b.) I agree!

c.) The way these people would think would probably go along the lines of wanting to see equality rather than favoring a woman. Eliminating bias, so to speak. I agree with you, but the core Demo voter base does not.

Quote:
Also, please read the bold in this quote and then in the quote below and mark the contradictions
Careful. Two different concepts being said here.

One is PERCEPTION, the other is STRATEGY. Still yet a third, which went unmentioned, is IDEOLOGY.

Clinton is perceived as a people's candidate; her populist social stances are what's getting her votes right now. She's also using her strategy to support this by sticking it to "the establishment." But she can't stick it to the establishment that supports her! So instead, she is sticking it to organizations like the NRA and the Trump campaign, using their well-seated positions to come across as an underdog who needs popular support.

Clinton's ideology is pretty conservative fiscally, and she has a tendency to support whatever she feels is important at the time. She is a little hard to pin down, but you can safely assume that she'll say what she needs to say and do what she needs to do in order to maintain the power she needs to continue doing what she needs to do.

Quote:
EDIT: Oh, and it also seems to me that even Trump is less of a flip-flopper and more consistent in expressed beliefs than Clinton
He is! Very perceptive. And it's a fear of coming across as a flip-flopper that has kept Trump immobilized when he should be acting; he is caught up in perception from his own team, because he has got this idea that he must be the God-Emperor of his team, the face of the party, the flagship of the free world.
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:51 PM   #1559
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In all honesty, I am not excited about this. I mean, I'm really proud that Sanders got this far and has garnered all of this support, being the only actual left-wing candidate running from a major party. I mean, if he miraculously gets the nomination I'd be happy, but I'm not going to be devastated if Clinton gets it. Between the Antichrist and Clinton, I rather choose the Antichrist. Whatever, America still continues the conservatism boner it has.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:40 PM   #1560
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There is a chance, however tiny, that Sanders will get it.
No there isn't. Not unless Hillary is indicted, which would probably kill her political career, but I'm not holding hope anymore.

And I'm not voting for Jill Stein either, we don't need a pro-homeopathy anti-nuclear energy candidate in the White House.

I'm not sure if there is even any reason for me to continue to stick around this thread for the remainder of the election season. I'll probably pop in and out but for now, this is all I have left in me.




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Old 06-11-2016, 12:55 AM   #1561
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I'd always liked Jill Stein, but her answer in her recent reddit AMA on Vaccines and Homeopathy was just... incredibly stupid.
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Old 06-11-2016, 07:21 AM   #1562
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Yep let's conveniently skip over the biased media and vote fraud that benefited Clinton.
Okay voter fraud is basically not a thing please stop acting like anyone in modern America has actually won any major office through voter fraud.

Sanders was great and I hope that the youth of the US has had a political awakening as a consequence of his campaign but we need to collectively get past our irrational rage over Bernie not being able to pull an Obama. To be perfectly honest, he never really had a good chance to begin with and it's pretty much a political miracle that he gained as much ground over one of the most recognizable politicians in recent collective memory. There's ultimately a point where we all need to bite the bullet and at least put in someone who will keep the country from running into the ground.

I really laud people, Bernie supporters especially, for wanting someone who will maintain integrity and will bring positive ideas and values to the office, but Hillary becoming president isn't going to end the world. I don't even like Hillary that much and I resent the fact that the political establishment is shoving her down my throat. But the President isn't all-powerful. There are in fact two whole big branches of government designed to make sure that that very thing does not happen!

We got through 8 whole years of Baby Bush just fine (well with the exception of the Iraq War and that whole recession I guess) and basically everyone thought he was a bumbling idiot. At least the anointed establishment choice is a competent politician with a good public image internationally and some meaningful policy experience. We could do a lot worse than Hillary.

So instead of lamenting the End of America with a chunk of fallen sky at your feet, why don't we all make a conscious decision to make a change in the US government progressively by voting for people with platforms like Mr. Sanders in local, state and Congressional elections where your vote actually matters in a meaningful way? The Presidential race is all glitz and glam and pomp and circumstance but you as an individual basically have no say in how it actually turns out (though you should vote anyway, especially if you live in a swing state because of tragedy of the commons and all that junk). But you can really affect meaningful change by voting in the elections that you do have some real say in.

In summary, the world is not ending, Hillary might suck but it could be worse, let's all try to change the political landscape by voting instead of complaining.

Vote early, vote often, vote vote vote vote vote
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Old 06-11-2016, 07:30 AM   #1563
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I don't know Jeri... if it were me I would rather post long rants about how terrible Hillary is instead of voting for her. Sure, a homophobic misogynistic racist would end up President, but I'd feel good about myself.
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Old 06-11-2016, 07:35 AM   #1564
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I don't know that my goal is to encourage people to vote for Hillary as much as it is to encourage them to vote whenever they are able.
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:03 AM   #1565
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Okay voter fraud is basically not a thing please stop acting like anyone in modern America has actually won any major office through voter fraud.
Bill Clinton campaigning near polling centers was illegal, so that part doesn't even have any tinfoil involved. The actual tinfoil part is all the thousands of registered voters that conveniently faced a "system glitch" and their registration was switched to Independent. There are tons of stories about this. That's way beyond fishy. And then you come to shit like Arizona which should've been thrown the fuck out.

As for "nobody in modern America" winning any major office through voter fraud, I'd say George Bush was pretty close.

At the same time, America is quite possibly the only major nation to not have national voting holidays. There is only one word for this: laughable. Fucking India has this, and we face the "shiniest of two turds" problem ten times more than you guys do.
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Old 06-11-2016, 09:26 AM   #1566
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Skeevy political tactics =/= voter fraud. Voter fraud is like using dead people to submit phony votes or ballot stuffing. Those stories are questionable at best and probably are not the reason why Hillary won the nomination.

Also the Democratic party literally has a failsafe called superdelegates that allow them to basically do whatever the hell they want if they think it's going to keep the party in the race. They don't need to do these kinds of things to ensure they get who they want. I'm afraid Mr. Sanders was more or less doomed from the start, regardless of the possible (and very small and uncoordinated) conspiracy against him.
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:07 AM   #1567
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Rather than making me change my mind about not voting for Clinton, the tone and content of your posts is actually solidifying my decision to vote for a write-in candidate on Election Day. If you really meant it when you claimed that all you care about is getting disenfranchised youth to vote on Election Day, then cool, no harm done. But if your real agenda is to try and persuade Sanders supporters to vote Clinton, I dunno ... I've said it before and will say it again, I don't really consider myself a "Sanders supporter" but I am definitely not voting for Clinton and your posts are making me even more inclined to stay the course.

You guys can keep repeating over and over all you like about "anything but Trump" and "a vote for someone not Rep or Dem is a thrown-away vote and you should feel ashamed of yourself," but fuck me, man: I am sick and tired of the paralytic "lesser of two evils" logic that governs American voting. Not gonna do it anymore. I'll acknowledge that my decision not to vote for the lesser evil could be the reason why the greater evil makes it into office. But I'm sick and tired of voting any known evil into office. Everyone has their flaws. I'm not saying I'd never vote for someone who isn't a picture perfect clone of Daisy or Missingno. Master. But fuck, man: there's not a single person on UPN right now, not a one, I would rather not vote for than vote for Hillary Clinton. Same exact deal with Donald Trump.

I'll vote. I'm not going to let anyone say, "Well you're just a part of the problem. You abstained from voting on principle and that's bad." I've abstained from voting before, and you suffer this sort of holier-than-thou nonsense. Well that's fine. I'll go vote. I just won't vote for anyone I don't think should hold office. I'll write in candidates where possible for the ones who I think should hold office. The change has to start somewhere. We should all of us, all Americans, be sick and tired of the constant hand-wringing where young and old alike bemoan their choices of candidates but then inevitably vote for one of the two leading parties' nominees. All talk and no action, that's what that is. Like Kush said several pages back, if you want change, a) you have to fight for it and b) you can't expect results overnight. This could take 40, 50 years of growing momentum and sending increasingly louder messages to Washington hopefuls that we the people won't tolerate the sort of crap that has so dominated politics for the last 120 years. We're done with romanticizing the Henry Clays and Daniels Websters. It's time to start working towards the election of their modern-day counterparts.
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Old 06-11-2016, 01:26 PM   #1568
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Talon, I'll write you in on election day if you return the favor

I know I said I am backing out but I want to solidify my own thoughts on this for the time being as a post-mortem to Bernie's loss.

For me my problem is this: having, every election cycle, the excuse of Supreme Court justices being replaced, therefore I must vote for the Democrat period. Truth is, democrats aren't going to hold office forever. A Republican will eventually get back in and possibly pick Supreme Court justices who go against the current laws of the land. Every election cycle the threat of replacing justices will always continue to loom. Every election cycle we will be told that if we vote third party over The Democrat, we are throwing our votes away to the Republican candidate to win, and then I hear a doom and gloom story about the end of human rights... which won't happen.

For me, I realize this, and I also realize I can choose between Trump, a deplorable person, or Hillary, also deplorable, but not on the same level. Hillary admittedly has a history of being politically qualified, but the problem is that anyone who is looking can see how fucking contrived it was from the start. There were murmurs back when Bill was still in office that she was going to be gunning for the presidency eventually. As soon as she gets out of the WH, she moves to New York and runs for Senate, wins, runs in 2008, loses, becomes SoS for Obama (she would have had the nomination if he weren't a dark horse), and now - notice how the only candidate opposing her was Bernie. Consider if he hadn't run, she would be running unopposed. Chaffee and O'Malley don't count, they dropped out before the primaries even started. But that just shows you how badly she didn't want a 2008 repeat, she worked with Debbie to ensure that other democrats hold off running this year, which is why Bernie was able to singlehandedly oppose her as an outsider who doesn't care about the rules. Her entire career up to this point ever since she was first lady was meticulously crafted to get her to the presidency, and with a fuckton of money and backdoor politics, and yeah, effort, she managed to get here.

Now meanwhile she is a candidate who is currently under a criminal investigation with the FBI, and everyone continues to want to act like this isn't a big deal. You can support Hillary if you want, you can even support her because you think she is a better choice than Trump, but I can't fathom how anyone can't admit how what she did is a huge deal. She purposely and deliberately circumvented using official email so that she could avoid the Freedom of information Act, and in the process received and hosted Top Secret files on a private and unsecured server. Which allegedly may have been hacked, multiple times. She could have potentially put our national security at risk, and a lot of people don't want to question that kind of judgment? On the topic of judgment, do we even need to go into Benghazi again, and how she handled that cluster fuck?

Truthfully to me, yes, Hillary is the better candidate than Trump, but by a slight margin. They are both so deplorable as people that I just don't want anything to do with them right now. I hate to entertain the notion that in a few months I could cool down and reluctantly come around to voting Democrat in November anyway with a bottle of scotch in hand, but for now I have no plans to do so, and after the months of abuse from the media and her campaign and the high-and-mighty attitudes of her supporters, I have zero interest in voting for Clinton at this point in time, and America will get the President it deserves regardless.
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Old 06-11-2016, 02:55 PM   #1569
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I'm not telling you to vote for Clinton. Frankly, your vote (and mine) won't matter anyway since, despite all of the hype behind it, the Presidential Election is really not decided by the people because of our ridiculous and antiquated electoral system. I just think you should vote period and start to vote regularly. Voting as much as you possibly can will prevent us from sliding backwards into the ridiculous land of bigotry that the rest of the world sees us as. I'll let Samantha Bee explain what I mean.

I just hate this idea and the associated attitude that Hillary getting in the White House is the end of American Politics forever and we should all revolt because (shock gasp) the US political machine picked an establishment candidate. This isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last, nor will it be what brings down the US government. If anything, there might be a little security in having the establishment candidate over the unpredictable wackjob that is Trump because at least we know what we're getting.

Let's just hope the Republicans don't shit the Congressional bed for another 8 years like they did with Obama.
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:38 PM   #1570
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but fuck me, man: I am sick and tired of the paralytic "lesser of two evils" logic that governs American voting. Not gonna do it anymore.
That's Jeri's point. That's my point, too, albeit I'm favoring the business executive over the career politician when making it instead of vice versa.

This election is not a choice between two evils. It is a choice between two fairly capable politicians and candidates who are both going to do good work once elected.

You are not: choosing between the genocide of illegal immigrants/Middle Eastern civilians and rampant corruption/corporate influence in politics.

You are: making your voice heard by selecting the candidate you think is the better choice for America.

Besides. Literally the only reason you see this as a choice for the lesser of two evils is because every candidate has done their damndest to paint their opponents as being literally Hitler. I wish I was just exaggerating, but Hillary's supporters have LITERALLY COMPARED DONALD TRUMP TO ADOLF HITLER. It's not even accurate! You could consider any right wing politician to be the next Hitler if you use those criteria!

In the same way, many of Hillary's opponents have painted her as a crook/corrupt/criminal. This is only mildly true - she does have to answer for that email bullshit, asap - just as Trump's nationalist leanings make him an easy canvas for the Hitler brush. Many of Bernie's opponents call him a Communist. There are probably a hundred thousand people out there who desperately want to keep Bernie out of office because they're afraid he's going to make America a communist country. And before you say "that's stupid!", a.) I know one of those people, b.) how are you okay with believing trump is the next hitler, but not this, c.) this is what people believe, not the actual truth. Or it might be. Idk. I didn't see anything about rising up against the bourgeoisie on Bernie's website.

So instead of just blindly feeling your way along from media portrayals of the candidates, perhaps you could. Oh, I don't fucking know. Become an educated electorate? Look at the policy positions of the candidates and follow along from there? Weigh your personal preferences against the stances and backgrounds of the candidates? Any one of those things is a great thing to do when voting in an election.

But even if not, please go vote. Voter turnout is a massive part of the American election process. Vote in your local elections, especially! Those are more important than the presidential election.
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:32 PM   #1571
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See my actual opinion is that they're both really shitty people. Maybe not "evil" but choosing between them is choosing the lesser of two really bad candidates that I cannot stand.
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:39 PM   #1572
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Could you elaborate on why you don't like either of the candidates?

Did you support Bernie? Some other candidate?

What issues do you consider the most important in America right now?
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:17 PM   #1573
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See, I find both candidates to be morally reprehensible people, and the most important issues to me in regards to the President are Climate Change and Immigration. Both are pretty horrifying on both, but Hillary's better on both issues than Trump. It also helps that HRC is an actually competent politician rather than a blowhard with a fourth grade vocabulary who's one positive quality (his business success) at the end of the day is disputed at best and outright dubious at worst.

This is why I've gone from a proud and outspoken Bernie supporter to a concerned and disappointed Hillary supporter.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:13 AM   #1574
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Frankly, if you don't live in a swing state, why the hell wouldn't you want to vote for a candidate that actually reflects your views? Thanks to our marvelous electoral system (thanks so, so much for that turd of an idea, founding fathers) unless you live in a small handful of states, your vote for president really doesn't matter- so vote how your conscience tells you to vote. If an independent candidate gets a certain voting threshold it actually benefits them tremendously- from funding to helping them stay on the ballot without having to collect signatures state to state, your vote isn't wasted just by voting for a third party candidate- though write-in candidates are much more just a wasted tree.

I do think that the supreme court issue is a huge one though, as yes, it's entirely possible that a Republican could come in in four years just as two or three of the more liberally minded justices shuffle off the mortal coil, but the fact is that it's becoming more prevalent for justices aligned with one party or the other to step down if they believe that they may not make it through another term and they think the current president is likely to appoint someone that will uphold similar values. Situations like Scalia dying where you have the chance to turn a 5-4 right leaning majority into a 5-4 left leaning majority simply don't come around very often.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:32 AM   #1575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorby View Post
See, I find both candidates to be morally reprehensible people, and the most important issues to me in regards to the President are Climate Change and Immigration. Both are pretty horrifying on both, but Hillary's better on both issues than Trump. It also helps that HRC is an actually competent politician rather than a blowhard with a fourth grade vocabulary who's one positive quality (his business success) at the end of the day is disputed at best and outright dubious at worst.

This is why I've gone from a proud and outspoken Bernie supporter to a concerned and disappointed Hillary supporter.
I haven't seen ANYTHING from Hillary on climate change that I can recall, so I'll take your word for it. I do recall that she blew up at those environmentalists so I feel like she might not actually be as gung-ho about hugging the trees as you might like.

Trump may have stated on Twitter that global warming is "a hoax made up by the Chinese", but he's also promised to hire and appoint competent experts for the departments under his care. That could lead to some very sensible climate change policies.

As for immigration...Idk what to tell you, you lost this election before it even began, considering Jeb didn't stand a chance. Every candidate was pretty much poised to do the exact same thing in various degrees of kindness. The difference with Trump was that he wanted to do it big and loud instead of quiet and unethical.

Though I believe Hillary might have adopted some stances you might like recently. As I've said before though, it's a little suspicious how many promises she's making and this one doubts her ability to follow through on all of them. Especially since she's taking a party-line approach. If the Dems don't steal the house we're in for 4 years of gridlock unless she abandons some of the principles that got her elected...or cheats somehow idk how.

Quote:
a blowhard with a fourth grade vocabulary who's one positive quality (his business success) at the end of the day is disputed at best and outright dubious at worst.
Trump's business success:failure ratio is actually top tier. He just has a lot of them, so there are a lot of failures. If you look at his failure record, you'd think he's a total blithering idiot. But I've only found records of like 15 failed companies and ventures out of 515 companies he currently owns. Percentagewise, that's actually really good. Unless there are at least 50 more businesses that went under at least once, we're talking single digit percents of failure. Anyone who does business will tell you that that's amazing.

You can joke about small loans of a million dollars, bankruptcies, and ridiculous blowhardiness all you want, Trump has had some pretty spectacular return on investment. But how, you ask? When he is such a monumental failure at everything he does!

Well no. He's really good at real estate. Like, creepy good. When it comes to luxury property, Trump is probably the biggest name and the biggest power player. He owns something like 515 companies in this field and that's where his fortune (and his worth) comes from. He also literally wrote the book on negotiation, for what it's worth. The Art of the Deal is one of the more famous business-related books of the past century and it's rated very highly by pretty much everyone.

Good businessman, good negotiator, not so great at other things like casinos, food, and football.

But shuckle running a country isn't real estate!

no it is not. very perceptive. no further questions. thank you for your time and attention bye now.

(point is he is nowhere near as much of a flop as time/huffpo/buzzfeed are trying to make him out to be. there's nothing spurious about his money or his mark as a businessman)
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