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Old 11-06-2016, 08:57 AM   #2751
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Am I the only one who feels the meaning of the word fascism has been downgraded significantly? I'm not trying to defend what has been happening - it's deplorable - but I think the word is bandied about all too often these days to describe something people just don't like as a means of sticking some sort of emotional response to it. It's the equivalent of the right wing calling the left wing commies.
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Old 11-06-2016, 09:10 AM   #2752
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Sure, you might've been correct when Bush was called fascist, or McCain, or whoever, and that certainly was a problem, because it makes people take what's actually happening right now less seriously.

A campaign that started based on the hate of a minority group. One based on "law and order." It's now moved on to distrusting the media...and distrusting the very foundations of democracy. A cult of personality, where only one man can overthrow the system. The opponent being bombarded with conspiracy theories, up to and including that she's a Satanist, and also that she has her political opponents assassinated...and with that, the classical "My opponent is incredibly powerful and yet incompetent." His supporters being desperate for change at any cost.

There are many parallels to fascism. Far too many.
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Old 11-06-2016, 12:19 PM   #2753
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No, I can happily concede that Trump and his movement is probably the closest we've had to a legitimate fascist movement in a very long time. I just thought it was an interesting parallel that both sides have the same kind of "denouncement" term (probably a poor phrasing, but you get the gist).

Though I feel like a distrust of the media is something which should be practiced in every day life anyway. This election above all else has made it quite painfully clear that even newspapers which claim to have an unbiased agenda do in fact not have anything near an unbiased agenda. I have no qualms with media agencies wearing affiliations on their sleeves - but if they've going to have obvious bias, they need to make it clear they have that bias.
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Old 11-06-2016, 02:19 PM   #2754
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Trump and his rhetoric scare me less than the Tea Party emergence around 2010.

I don't think Trump is crazy, he is one part calculating, one part idiot, all parts instinct. He's a media blowhard but a predictable one.

The Tea Partiers are legitimate wackos. I have no idea what they're capable of.
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Old 11-06-2016, 02:27 PM   #2755
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Social conservatives are really only one step removed from Tea Partiers though and Trump has embraced them in his bed by putting in Mike Pence as his VP.
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Old 11-06-2016, 02:39 PM   #2756
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That's still a stretch. The president, not the VP, calls the shots and social conservative, if related to Tea Party, is not Tea Party.

I would actually be fearful if this election was Ted Cruz v. Hillary Clinton. Cruz isn't very electable, but looking at Hillary's meltdown, you literally only had to be diplomatic and relatively scandal-free to be perceived as an acceptable alternative to her.
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Old 11-06-2016, 02:45 PM   #2757
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Oh no actually Mike Pence is apparently a supporter of the Tea Party.

Even still one's choice of VP is a pretty big deal. You can't say that Trump is not going to let these kinds of things through unless you believe he's lying to half the country.
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Old 11-06-2016, 02:49 PM   #2758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
You can't say that Trump is not going to let these kinds of things through unless you believe he's lying to half the country.
=3=
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Old 11-06-2016, 03:22 PM   #2759
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Originally Posted by Rangeet View Post
Sure, you might've been correct when Bush was called fascist, or McCain, or whoever, and that certainly was a problem, because it makes people take what's actually happening right now less seriously.

A campaign that started based on the hate of a minority group. One based on "law and order." It's now moved on to distrusting the media...and distrusting the very foundations of democracy. A cult of personality, where only one man can overthrow the system. The opponent being bombarded with conspiracy theories, up to and including that she's a Satanist, and also that she has her political opponents assassinated...and with that, the classical "My opponent is incredibly powerful and yet incompetent." His supporters being desperate for change at any cost.

There are many parallels to fascism. Far too many.
Remember GWB? Man.
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Old 11-06-2016, 07:41 PM   #2760
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I thankfully dont I was much to young to understand politics

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Old 11-06-2016, 09:24 PM   #2761
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i was 8 all i remember is GWB was the devil
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Old 11-06-2016, 10:00 PM   #2762
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Aaaaand they cleared Hillary. Again. How surprising
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Old 11-06-2016, 10:15 PM   #2763
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My fam hated GWB, and I disagree with a lot of what he did...so fuck him :3
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:01 AM   #2764
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The president, not the VP, calls the shots
President Cheney begs to differ.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:06 AM   #2765
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[color=#5f9f9f][B]Obama peacefully and elegantly stands up for the free speech rights of a protester at his rally. Trump lies and says he "screamed at his supporters". Trump supporters eat this up.

A Republican protester holding "Republicans Against Trump" gets beaten up and in all probability only saved from death by Secret Service Agents. At the same rally, they try to beat up a CNN cameraman who was trying to record it. Trump is praised as a hero.

Still don't think fascism is this close to taking over the US?
Trump talking out of his ass is not "fascism" and never will be. Fascism is an authoritarian, right-wing system of government (which already disqualifies Trump from ever being fascist, as he's an anti-establishment demagogue) that became popular in the early 20th century due to its support of violence as a means of rejuvenating the country it is adopted in. A dictator comes to power (ok sure you have Trump pegged there, he OBVIOUSLY wants to toss away the Constitution and establish himself as God-Emperor of America) and begins mobilizing the war machine so that industry picks up, the economy is revitalized, and the country accomplishes its military goals.

You could argue that Trump's stances on international politics is like a nonviolent form of fascism. That's fair. Exerting political pressure is sort of similar to exerting military pressure. You could also claim Trump's "calls to violence" count as violent fascism, but that would be stupid. Saying on live TV that you want to "punch Hillary Clinton" is stupid too and could be called violence, but it is not violent fascism.

But here we come to a sticky situation: Trump is not right-wing, not violent, and not authoritarian. Only "arguably" or "technically" or "relatively" so.

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Okay then. One wonders what will happen in the next election, when the Republicans send out a very slightly better version of Trump.
Please God let this happen

Trump:

1. Talks about how poor black communities need help and jobs
2. Speaks up for LGBT people
3. Tries to reduce the tax burden on the poor
4. Seeks to bring American money back from overseas

Trump literally stands up for what you want. He doesn't say it in ways you like, but he's not talking to you; he's talking to the millions of subtly racist middle-class to upper-class people out there who are ignorant to the plights of minorities and the poor because they don't interact with them. This is a Good Thing.

Donald Trump represents a politically incorrect approach to political correctness. I've been saying this for a long time actually.

He's not perfect. After all, he's a Republican. He set half the country against him right from the start by yelling about wlasl and Muslims, and he has Pence as his running mate. But in the grand scheme of things, we WANT more attention on minority issues. We WANT more attention on the plight of LGBT youth. We WANT more attention drawn towards what we can do to help those in need. Non-Trumpy candidates are not going to give us any of that.

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What have you done to America, you Americans?
We're trying to get better, and I don't think it's fair to try to claim that the first Republican presidential candidate since Abraham Lincoln who openly cares about the welfare of black people wants to set the Fourth Reich into motion.

Like, fuck. Attacking Donald Trump as a racist is an easy way to ensure that the GOP goes right back to pretending that minority issues don't exist while they slap ever-harsher penalties onto simple drug crimes in order to target black men in poor neighborhoods and try to deport Mexicans from the country. Did you know 13% of black men can't vote?

There are a zillion and one reasons not to vote for Donald Trump. Here are a list of perfectly acceptable reasons:

1. You don't like his tax plan
2. You don't like his foreign policy
3. You don't like his persona
4. You don't like his ISIS battle plan
5. You don't like that he's (probably) a billionaire (he's done well to counteract this with policies targeted at reducing the power of the super-rich, though)
6. You didn't like his debate performances
7. You don't want to vote Republican
8. He's a demagogue with no plans for the future
9. He's not emotionally stable
10. You don't like his stance on illegal immigration

Here are a list of not-very-good reasons:

1. He's racist
2. He's fascist
3. He's Hitler
4. He's dangerous
5. He's a lizard person
6. His supporters are all "Bad hombres"
7. America is already great!!!
8. He's homophobic
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:10 AM   #2766
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Like I swear to God people, every time you call Donald Trump a bigot you only make the bigotry problem worse.

It's like spanking your two-year-old for eating candy even though he never actually ate candy. All that's going to happen is that he's going to stuff himself on candy later and he's going to hate you. Try...I don't know, rewarding the "irresponsible toddler" for not grabbing fistfuls of Snickers ("black people are second class citizens") and explain to him why cookies ("illegal Hispanic immigrants should be immediately deported") are bad for him and he shouldn't eat any more of them.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:14 AM   #2767
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There are only so many times we can relink you to the quotes about blacks, casinos, and yarmulkes.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:20 AM   #2768
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Yes I'm sure Donald Trump, the man who wants to reimplement Stop and Frisk, the man who asked black communities "What do you have to lose?" is the guy who wants to help black people.

You are ignoring facts like crazy. You're ignoring history like crazy.

German politicians, too, thought they could "tame" Hitler when he came to power. Why don't you have a look at some more parallels.

But really, if you weren't convinced by everything we linked that Trump was racist, the only conclusion to make is that you and the rest of the world have completely different definitions of racism.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:25 AM   #2769
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To be fair, it's more productive to attack Trump's policies than Trump himself, even if his political direction is relatively vague.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:37 AM   #2770
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Why are we having this conversation again tbh lol
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:43 AM   #2771
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Well, in that case you'd be attacking Mike Pence's policies. Since, after all, Trump has clearly said that he'll be letting his VP handle "domestic and foreign policy" while he'll be "making America great again." By building walls and making Mexico pay for it, of course.

And one look at Mike Pence's policies is going to set any non-extremist-Conservative running for the hills.

But let's not pretend as if Trump's character is irrelevant. It most certainly is. If he's racist (which he is), he will end up implementing racist policies. If he's sexist (which he is) he will end up implement sexist policies. If he has dictatorial qualities (which he does), combined with his fanatical fan-base, it will not even remotely be the first time a democratically elected leader will have become a dictator.

And I suppose the discussion at this point is purely academical, but it bears repeating how close America has come to embracing actual, literal fascism.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:52 AM   #2772
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Just wanna remind everyone this was a thing that happened that Mike Pence actually did

Quote:
A same-sex couple applying for a marriage license in Indiana, where gay marriage is expressly prohibited by law, could face up to three years in prison for submitting the application to their county clerk -- even if it's denied.

A 1997 state law declares it a Class D felony to submit false information on a marriage license application or lie about the physical condition, including gender, of a marriage license applicant.
He signed this bill. That is honestly monstrous.

Here are seven other fun little Anti-LGBT actions he took while governor. And let's not forget, the man wanted businesses to be able to deny service to customers based on sxual orientation or religion!
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:59 AM   #2773
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Yeah, Mike Pence is pretty atrocious. And was not a very good governor (the reason why he jumped on the Trump bandwagon, thought to be a sinking ship, is because his shot at reelection was eh). That said, look forward to his 2020 run!
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:09 AM   #2774
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If Hillary wins, and the Republicans ACTUALLY want a shot at beating her, I hope to god they actually try putting up a competent candidate for a change (Well, or maybe I don't - we'll have to see who they can toss at her, because frankly there's a 99% chance it will be someone terrible, as usual). I can't remember the last time the Republicans put up a competent candidate. Everybody is always so fond of the Reagan years because that's about how long it's been since the party has been able to put forth someone who actually carries themselves well and doesn't come off as either a blubbering moron or a lunatic. The only two candidates I can think of that even come close to something like that would be Rubio and Paul Ryan. Romney was close but he had too much baggage and was too 'corporate'.
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:10 AM   #2775
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Just out of curiosity, Talon - have reconsidered voting for a third party, or are you still going to? And which third party, anyway?
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