UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-30-2015, 04:01 PM   #76
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
I would argue John is at fault in Mozz's example.

Deciding to start transitioning from male to female with the certainty of causing issues for co-workers isn't courteous. Rangeet's argument that the clients need to grow up isn't realistic. Mozz and his entire business is harmed by one person who has little care for the group. The proper course of action is to schedule leave and complete the transition, or resign.

I had surgery two weeks ago and was in pain before I had it (and right now ), but I scheduled my surgery/recovery to have the least impact on my co-worker's schedules as possible.

IMO, pregnancy is the same kind of slippery slope, and there's been loads of talk about what maternity leave does on workplaces.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 04:15 PM   #77
Deebs
You sayin' I like dudes?
 
Deebs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: KY
Posts: 1,898
Send a message via Skype™ to Deebs
So true, not sure why people hire women anyway! They could get pregnant at any time!
__________________
Deebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 04:22 PM   #78
Mozz
Golden Wang of Justice
 
Mozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebs View Post
So true, not sure why people hire women anyway! They could get pregnant at any time!
Married childless women under the age of 40 have a slightly harder time getting through the interview process since hiring managers assume that there will be maternity leave with the possibility of them quitting soon after. Not that they're wrong, but the bias is real.
__________________
Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website.
Mozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 05:12 PM   #79
PikaGod
Marsh Badge
 
PikaGod's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I would argue John is at fault in Mozz's example.

Deciding to start transitioning from male to female with the certainty of causing issues for co-workers isn't courteous. Rangeet's argument that the clients need to grow up isn't realistic. Mozz and his entire business is harmed by one person who has little care for the group. The proper course of action is to schedule leave and complete the transition, or resign.
You are aware that transitioning isn't just something that happens in a short period of time right? Like it is completely unreasonable to expect someone who is transitioning to just either leave work for a long time or to just resign. Like this is an incredibly stupid thing to say.
__________________
Fizzy Bubbles: Karmas
PikaGod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 05:14 PM   #80
Emi
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,068
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
Just pointing out from what I remember hormone treatment can take years to reach the intended effect. It's not something quick.
__________________
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 05:25 PM   #81
Selena
Aroma Lady
 
Selena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,760
Also some people still go to work as their birthgender while transitioning, only going as their new gender when they're comfortable with their looks.
__________________
Trainer level 3: 53 KO \\ 187 TP \\ 37.5 SP
21 win 29 loss 1 draw (17/21/1 Without DQ)

B- grade ref.
Quote:
Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite View Post
Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
Selena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:03 PM   #82
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
The problem is that in Mozz's example, John is not going the nice thing, and he isn't doing the right thing. In fact, he's being a colossal asshole, and that kind of thing would get me or any of you fired.

However, due to the fact that this assholery is localized around John's gender shift, he cannot be fired for this attitude, even if there is a measurable decline in office morale, profits, or anything else important that you care to name.

It's one thing to tell people to "grow up and live in the 21st century" and it's quite another to tell people to "grow up and live in the 21st century and by the way please continue to give me your business so I can eat."

Because this cannot be satisfactorily worked into the text of an anti-discrimination law, these things tend to not be popular with even the most accepting businesses. On the one hand, I think trans people would be really benefited and protected from businesses who are bigoted and seek to fire trans people simply out of some misguided moral sense. On the other...it's not fun to have to deal with, even if it's rare.

And before someone jumps down my throat with a "BUT BUSINESS DOESN'T CARE", most businesses are perfectly happy to increase minority representation including LGBT, but are (understandably) nervous about having an employee who can do whatever they want and not get fired.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:08 PM   #83
PikaGod
Marsh Badge
 
PikaGod's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
The problem is that in Mozz's example, John is not going the nice thing, and he isn't doing the right thing. In fact, he's being a colossal asshole, and that kind of thing would get me or any of you fired.
The hell dude? How is transitioning anyway being a colossal asshole?
__________________
Fizzy Bubbles: Karmas
PikaGod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:17 PM   #84
Zelphon
Caffeinated
 
Zelphon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Bed
Posts: 2,788
Send a message via Skype™ to Zelphon
Base God Jeri, smite this thread.
__________________
Life, but a series of paths and flows
Down many one can go
May yours run smoothly and be soft to your feet

Zelphon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:22 PM   #85
Mozz
Golden Wang of Justice
 
Mozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelphon View Post
Base God Jeri, smite this thread.
Seriously? It's an interesting discussion, and both sides are being relatively respectful. Don't click the thread title next time, then.
__________________
Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website.
Mozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:26 PM   #86
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by PikaGod View Post
Like it is completely unreasonable to expect someone who is transitioning to just either leave work for a long time or to just resign. Like this is an incredibly stupid thing to say.
Nobody is expecting anything. It is what that someone SHOULD do if they're thinking about the welfare of their boss and coworkers. In Mozz's example, even if the entire company is supportive of the transgender, the reality is they're going to lose business so long as the transgender is interacting with customers.

I don't know how they would feel emotionally knowing that. The customers hate you and the people supporting you are suffering as a result. How could someone continue to work there understanding that?
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:37 PM   #87
Emi
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,068
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
I'm kinda sorry but I don't agree with anyone that a person should go years without work. The change is typically very gradual anyways.
__________________
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:39 PM   #88
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by PikaGod View Post
The hell dude? How is transitioning anyway being a colossal asshole?
Somebody gets you sick with the flu. It's not your fault you're sick, but you are. If you decide to still go to work -- and risk infecting others -- then you are being discourteous. Even if not going to work means financial ruin for you. You're still being discourteous, plain and simple.

I think it's somewhat similar with their example. It isn't John's fault he doesn't feel right being in a man's body. But it is his fault, his discourtesy, to force his transition upon others knowing full well that it will compromise team performance and customer satisfaction. He is making a conscious choice to drag his employer with him through the transition process rather than do it on his own time outside of work -- even if to do that requires that he leave for several months to a year.

The issue here is, you seem like you'd take vehement issue with someone comparing a transgender transformation with catching the flu -- and there are loads of people in society who are on the other end of the spectrum, also taking issue with my comparison but because they're horrified by the normalization of TG.

~*~*~*~*~*~

I think it's unreasonable to expect all employers to accommodate gender changes in every setting. An easy enough example: if a NASA astronaut decides to go through with a gender change, including surgery and hormone therapy, then I think all of the following are more than reasonable:
  • descheduling that astronaut from all planned flights until he/she is re-cleared post-therapy by the flight surgeon et al
  • requiring that astronaut to re-undergo physical evaluation post-therapy to make sure they can pass all checks
Thought I had a third point but I forget it. Oh well. These two are good enough. And illustrate the problems in requiring all employers to pretend like gender changes aren't an occupational problem in the slightest.

That's the problem with a lot of current events in law: we keep seeing sides wrest for generalized rulings and legislation when life's really too complex for sweeping generalizations and we really need to look at things on a case-by-case basis. In my NASA example, NASA is accommodating and doesn't want to lose the employee. But if the employee can't perform their job during treatment (e.g. hormone therapy affects judgment and judgment cannot be allowed to be affected on space flights), or if the employee can't perform their job after treatment (e.g. breast implants present inoperable risk in space flight), then it's reasonable to think that NASA should have to let that person go -- or at least, not let them go on space flights anymore.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:53 PM   #89
Emi
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,068
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
Quote:
But it is his fault, his discourtesy, to force his transition upon others knowing full well that it will compromise team performance and customer satisfaction. He is making a conscious choice to drag his employer with him through the transition process rather than do it on his own time outside of work -- even if to do that requires that he leave for several months to a year.
In general a "proper" transition takes longer, and its not like pregnancy where going to work could possibly mean that the person may either not physically be able to their job or it might cause harm to the baby. I personally take offense to the fact that if I need to work, even if I'm in the only situation comfortable enough to transition, I either need to put my transition on hold OR leave my job with absolutely nothing to support myself during my transition? It costs money dude. It's not free.
__________________
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 07:05 PM   #90
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
In general a "proper" transition takes longer, and its not like pregnancy where going to work could possibly mean that the person may either not physically be able to their job or it might cause harm to the baby. I personally take offense to the fact that if I need to work, even if I'm in the only situation comfortable enough to transition, I either need to put my transition on hold OR leave my job with absolutely nothing to support myself during my transition? It costs money dude. It's not free.
So the fuck does having a baby. Maternity leave is half pay in some places, 90% pay in others like the UK, and not even legally protected in some places. To my surprise, Indiana is or until recently was one of the latter. So in Indiana, for example, all your employer had to do was give you 12 weeks off (@ zero pay) because of some federal laws governing businesses of certain sizes. This is why it's so common in Indiana, I guess now that I think about it, for women to only take a week off and men only one to two days. No one wants to lose pay.

So if a pregnant woman in Indiana is faced with the possibility of a zero-pay maternity leave, then I think TG Hoosiers have a steeply uphill battle to fight if they want full pay, months on end, while they net their employers absolutely nothing.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 07:05 PM   #91
PikaGod
Marsh Badge
 
PikaGod's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
It costs money dude. It's not free.
Kush, I don't know if it's already included in the NHS, but enacting policies to have hormones, at the very least, as a part of it would probably help a lot of transpeople.
__________________
Fizzy Bubbles: Karmas
PikaGod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 07:11 PM   #92
Deebs
You sayin' I like dudes?
 
Deebs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: KY
Posts: 1,898
Send a message via Skype™ to Deebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
So the fuck does having a baby. Maternity leave is half pay in some places, 90% pay in others like the UK, and not even legally protected in some places. To my surprise, Indiana is or until recently was one of the latter. So in Indiana, for example, all your employer had to do was give you 12 weeks off (@ zero pay) because of some federal laws governing businesses of certain sizes. This is why it's so common in Indiana, I guess now that I think about it, for women to only take a week off and men only one to two days. No one wants to lose pay.

So if a pregnant woman in Indiana is faced with the possibility of a zero-pay maternity leave, then I think TG Hoosiers have a steeply uphill battle to fight if they want full pay, months on end, while they net their employers absolutely nothing.
This is its own separate issue. The U.S. has a long way to go on this.
__________________
Deebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 07:14 PM   #93
Emi
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,068
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
So the fuck does having a baby. Maternity leave is half pay in some places, 90% pay in others like the UK, and not even legally protected in some places. To my surprise, Indiana is or until recently was one of the latter. So in Indiana, for example, all your employer had to do was give you 12 weeks off (@ zero pay) because of some federal laws governing businesses of certain sizes. This is why it's so common in Indiana, I guess now that I think about it, for women to only take a week off and men only one to two days. No one wants to lose pay.

So if a pregnant woman in Indiana is faced with the possibility of a zero-pay maternity leave, then I think TG Hoosiers have a steeply uphill battle to fight if they want full pay, months on end, while they net their employers absolutely nothing.
See the difference in a without pay scenario is that in some cases, yes, the woman can get away with only taking a week off for the actual childbirth. It's not ideal but its possible, and then she can go back to work, especially since hospitals can discharge you very quickly afterwards. Do you honestly think that transgender people have that liberty? It's not a "oh he'll suddenly turn into a women in a week". THAT'S my point. Not only will it take a long time to transition into something "reasonable", forcing that person to do it without pay while still having to pay for hormones, medical bills, clothes, food etc is insane, and to do that for more than a year? Madness.

I don't want transgender people to be labeled welfare rats either. People hate people who live off of welfare and people already don't like pregnancy leave. You think they are going to accept "okay he's going to be living off of our tax dollars for the next two years so he can transition"? They aren't. I want protection for transgender people so they can transition in the work place without fear of being let go. It's the only reasonable way to do it.
__________________
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 10:23 PM   #94
Schadenfreude
Volcano Badge
 
Schadenfreude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bar-hopping with Notorious RBG
Posts: 2,263
Send a message via Skype™ to Schadenfreude
Funny thing is that a lot of the arguments being lobbied from the side hesitant to accommodate for transgender people are the same arguments that biased employers used to discriminate against women and gays in the 60s, pre-Stonewall. That's the problem with lack of proper anti-discrimination protection in the eyes of the law: it legitimises prejudice. Frankly, you roll out the anti-discrimination legislation to apply for all jobs, as they did for maternity leave, and a few archaic people groan, but then the industry moves on eventually. I'll point out that one of the staunchest advocates for marriage equality were big businesses because in the 21st century, they are realising that having diversity and anti-discrimination policies actually makes them more appealing to investors. Yeah, fifty years ago, these same companies were not fans of the LGBT community but in 2015, they realise that they gain more out of being liberal (less bad media, more diversity, etc) than they lose from the unlikely hypothetical that John would suddenly impose them with a transition which burdens the entire team.

tl;dr, Rangeet's post is the simplest and bluntest summation of everything. People need to stop making the issue more frightening and complicated than it actually is: you roll out the unfair dismissal policies to apply to everybody, and then people accept & move on to the 21st century. It doesn't seem like it would be that simple, but you'd be surprised.

Anyway, this thread is starting to veer towards some accidentally transphobic comments, and I've said everything that I have to say, so I'm going to Amy Schumer myself out of here before the proverbial hits the fan.

Schadenfreude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 10:51 PM   #95
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
You guys should totally play Muv-Luv Alternative (after Extra/Unlimited). There's a huuuuuuge discussion about identity in that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post
Funny thing is that a lot of the arguments being lobbied from the side hesitant to accommodate for transgender people are the same arguments that biased employers used to discriminate against women and gays in the 60s, pre-Stonewall. That's the problem with lack of proper anti-discrimination protection in the eyes of the law: it legitimises prejudice. Frankly, you roll out the anti-discrimination legislation to apply for all jobs, as they did for maternity leave, and a few archaic people groan, but then the industry moves on eventually. I'll point out that one of the staunchest advocates for marriage equality were big businesses because in the 21st century, they are realising that having diversity and anti-discrimination policies actually makes them more appealing to investors. Yeah, fifty years ago, these same companies were not fans of the LGBT community but in 2015, they realise that they gain more out of being liberal (less bad media, more diversity, etc) than they lose from the unlikely hypothetical that John would suddenly impose them with a transition which burdens the entire team.
Women have been seen (for a long time) to be superior to men in service-based industries, and discriminated largely in blue-collar or manufacturing. Most jobs are service-based now, so the discrimination might still exist, but industrial changes have phased it out. It's hard to discriminate against a gay person because homosexuality is not obvious.

Mozz's example featured a man wearing a dress and behaving like a woman. A less extreme example is someone who didn't take to sexual reassignment surgery well. Another good analog is the morbidly obese person.

it's about personal appearance. Judging based on physical appearance is practically instinct. It's the same reason people don't dress like slobs to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post
tl;dr, Rangeet's post is the simplest and bluntest summation of everything. People need to stop making the issue more frightening and complicated than it actually is: you roll out the unfair dismissal policies to apply to everybody, and then people accept & move on to the 21st century. It doesn't seem like it would be that simple, but you'd be surprised.
Meanwhile, transgenders are discriminated against because no one settled on a practical solution to their plight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post
Anyway, this thread is starting to veer towards some accidentally transphobic comments
This was completely un-necessary.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて

Last edited by Doppleganger; 06-30-2015 at 11:35 PM.
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 11:07 PM   #96
Jerichi
プラスチック♡ラブ
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
>This was completely un-necessary.

It might be passive-aggressively accusatory but I think it's not out of place to remind people to at least try to be a little sensitive, considering we do have trans members in this community.
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 11:09 PM   #97
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
This was completely un-necessary.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought so. Originally scrapped this reply:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post
Anyway, this thread is starting to veer towards some accidentally transphobic comments[/IMG]
You know what this forum needs even less of than those? Holier-than-thou condescension such as this.
but I guess given you noticed it too I may as well draw attention to the fact that I was rather put off by Schaden's remark as well. I think it's pretty obvious who he is referencing -- yourself, myself, and/or Mozz -- and I don't think any of us deserve to be labeled as transphobes from what we've had to say in this thread. There isn't much of a debate to be had without someone taking the con, and of the three of us who have most prominently done so thus far, two of us are clearly interested in it purely from the philosophical side of things while the third has brought forth some legitimate 21st century business concerns while being nothing short of apologetic in tone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
>This was completely un-necessary.

It might be passive-aggressively accusatory but I think it's not out of place to remind people to at least try to be a little sensitive, considering we do have trans members in this community.
Yuh no. This forum has proven time and time again that douchebaggery will not be tolerated. People can kindly check holier-than-thou condescending clinchers like this one at the door, particularly when it's clear that all parties involved are speaking politely and with candor.

tl;dr no one likes a white knight.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 11:16 PM   #98
Jerichi
プラスチック♡ラブ
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
I'm kinda sorry but I don't agree with anyone that a person should go years without work. The change is typically very gradual anyways.
I don't think anyone is implying that, or that it's actually the case. If anything, because the transition is gradual, it will make it easier for people to accept. Any kind of radical shift in self-expression, regardless of what it is, is going to be disruptive to your work. If you were transitioning in the context of work and slowly began to do hormone therapy as you work, waiting to make the big change at a time which would keep from it being an issue, you can easily continue to work and undergo a transition.

I feel like both sides are basically looking at this particular problem in black and white when the reality is much grayer than either side wants to believe.
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 11:18 PM   #99
Emi
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,068
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
I know the reality is grayer, that's precisely been my point. Yes they are looking at it from a purely philosophical standpoint but its unrealistic and uneducated, and some of the things that have been said or implied have rustled my jimmies. I already fear going into the work force.
__________________
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 11:21 PM   #100
Jerichi
プラスチック♡ラブ
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
It's understandable and I'm definitely not faulting you for it, but saying "people who are transitioning are going to be unable to work while they do" is also kind of unrealistic.
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:32 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.