06-12-2009, 09:23 AM | #276 |
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The problem I have with the frontiers is that there are only very few of them which I'm interested in. If all seven were fun, then great. But ...
Spoiler: show I agree with deoxys 100% that it's more fun to explore a new land than it is to obsess over tournament-style play. And there are lots of fixes that don't require you to say good-bye to your much-loved team from the main game. Like I mentioned, they could raise the levels. Like deoxys smartly mentioned, they could also make it so that in the add-on regions it auto-adjusts everybody's level to 50 (no matter where you really are) and that way every battle in that region can remain fun and challenging. As for the tournament-focused people, there are other ways to make the experience fun for them rather than a drag. Instead of looking at it like, "Aw man, if I want to get Jirachi I have to play for 80 hours!? This sucks!" they could look at it like, "Hey! The trainers in this region specifically have teams that give straight EVs of one kind!" (Like, for example, a trainer might have a grass-type, fire-type, psychic-type, and water-type but all four of them may provide +1 to +3 SpAtt effort.) For those of us playing for exploration, the region's fun to explore. For those playing for tournament stuff, they don't have to see it as forced punishment: they could see it as a welcome opportunity. "Fight grab bag EV trainers in Johto .......................... or fight single-category EV trainers in Hoenn? I know which one I'm going to pick! "
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06-12-2009, 10:16 AM | #277 |
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Exactly. I think Vran and I agree.
New info today: It's now confirmed that all 493 Pokemon can walk behind your character, it's not limited to just starters. Screenshots have shown Wobbuffet, Steelix, and Kecleon walking behind the character. Preorder for the games in Japan begin July 4, and if you preorder HG you get Ho-oh figure, and SS a Lugia figure, and if both, an Arceus figure. New Jirachi is obtained via downloads at Lv 5 with Wish, Rest, Confusion, and Draco Meteor and holding a Liechi berry. |
06-12-2009, 11:05 AM | #278 | |||
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Links are always nice to include.
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*cough* , aesthetic rant aside, I'm stoked. It's great to see that all of them can follow you. It'll look dumb for the larger ones since they're gonna be scrunched but for the ones that are 2 feet to 5 feet tall it should look pretty snazzy. Man, oh man! Quote:
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As much as I hate Johto , if HGSS really does include Kanto and Hoenn, I'm prepared to go with the flow and agree that these games could very well be the best ones yet. Not because of Johto though , but because of 3-years-later Kanto and ???-years-earlier Hoenn. Come to think of it ... if they do include Hoenn, we won't be seeing either Norman or Flannery. Norman hadn't moved the family to Hoenn yet, and Flannery was a teen when we last saw her so she'd probably be way too young to be a gym leader in HGSS. We probably won't see Stephen Stone either for similar reasons. And we wouldn't see Glacia in the Elite 4, and probably not Will (the newbie) either. Add all this up and it suggests that Hoenn is much more prepared for gym leader shake-ups than Kanto was (and hence why the only gym leader who was replaced was Koga, who replaced ... I forget. Was it Agatha or Bruno that got the axe?). I can hear ZoraJolteon champing his teeth already. Say what you will: maybe GameFreak is, for whatever reason, putting art before profit. Maybe they want fans to be talking about this game for years and for that reason alone it'd be worth it to them to include not one but two additional lands.
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06-12-2009, 11:36 AM | #279 | |
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Agatha got the axe, as did Loreli. They were replaced by Koga and Will.
If it does turn out to be a three region game, people will be talking about it for years alright; how they ruined the experience that was GSC. Having Kanto tacked on was bad enough. I stand by what I said before; the problem with multiple regions is that the extra regions cut out a lot of the reasons to play pokemon in the first place. A region is good for three things; storyline, new pokemon, and a new challenge. By the time you've got 8 badges, your team is pretty much set, and wild pokes are so low levelled that it's a major timesink to train up a new team member. One reason gone. Without a major plot overhaul, there's essentially no plot after Johto. Reason two gone. That leaves just the challenge factor, which as I said can be better met by a series of challenges that don't rely on typespam; a battle frontier. Moreover, extra regions drive down the levels of the earlier regions, making them seem shorter and far less challenging (vis a vis Johto in the original GSC thanks to Kanto). In the original GSC, it felt like they just tacked Kanto on for no good reason; nothing interesting happened, and it could be beaten in a hour, two tops. It was just a straight gym slog. IMHO, the Sevii Islands were a perfect example of what an extra area should be. It was reasonably challenging, short enough that Kanto's levels were unaffected, and continued the TR plotline in an interesting way. Unlike the Kanto gym challenge in GSC, it wasn't just a two hour max typespam fest. Do away with Kanto, I say. Forget Hoenn, few of us liked it in the first place anyway. Give us a new area; one with a decent challenge, an interesting continuation to the storyline, and small enough that Johto can finally become a proper region in its own right, with an ungimped gym leaders and it's own league rather than piggybacking Kanto's.
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06-12-2009, 11:41 AM | #280 |
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Sorry I gotta disagree. GSC was my favorite because it included Kanto, and that's why RuSa failed hardcore. New boring area and our old favorite 2 areas were ditched until the remakes.
Since the DSi kicked out advance support, we all knew this was coming anyway, there needed to be a DS Hoenn. |
06-12-2009, 11:58 AM | #281 |
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DSi SUCKS DICK
Ahem, Gardevoir following me FTW |
06-12-2009, 12:35 PM | #282 | ||
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06-12-2009, 01:56 PM | #283 |
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I AM TOTALLY BUYING A GAMESHARK SO I CAN HACK A KECLEON IN TO THE GAME AND ADVENTURE WITH KOI~
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06-12-2009, 02:04 PM | #284 |
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But am I going to be able to tell if the Hippowdon following me is male or female?
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06-12-2009, 03:07 PM | #286 |
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For me, the biggest reason to include extra regions isn't just the cities themselves. It's the characters. Nothing pleases me more than appropriate use of cameos, and I think GameFreak actually proved themselves quite capable of this with Kanto last time we saw it as an add-on. Most of the gym leaders treated Hiroki like they would treat any fresh face. Those trainers, like Misty and Brock, were fun for fans to see just for us being able to see them at all. (I remember only too well how the testosterone on the forum drove many of the boys to compare Misty's GS boobs to her RBY ones! ) But on occasion you saw a gym leader who was a little more ... special. Like Koga's daughter in Fuschia. Or like the dislodged Blaine who had pitifully taken up refuge in, of all places, a damp cave in the middle of the sea. And I'll never forget the surprise of fighting Gym Leader #8! What a pleasant surprise that was! (And his team! I still think of Gary to this day whenever I feel the desire rising inside of me to effort-train an Arcanine. )
Considering what we saw in Diamond and Pearl, I am even more confident than before that this could be done very well by GameFreak in HGSS. They did a fantastic job of linking any one of the eight Sinnoh gym leaders to at least one other gym leader or Elite 4 member. Volkner, your rival, and Flint. Roark and his dad in Canalave. (Sorry, name escapes me. ) You saw Gardenia again in front of the haunted house after beating the game. You saw Fantine multiple times before finally getting to fight her. It felt a lot like the anime in a very good way: it made the gym leaders much more relevant to you than just another pretty face with a shitty team of monsters who share an element in common. So what's the relationship to the previous discussion? It's pretty simple: while you are exploring Kanto (and Hoenn if they decide to include it), several of the Johto gym leaders could show up in different places. For example, it would be appropriate to run into Whitney right outside/inside the Safari Zone! Between her Chansey and Miltank, it makes perfect sense for her to be interested in Kanto's safari. Perhaps you might run into Morty in Lavender Town? What if when you visited Blaine in Seafoam he got a letter brought to him by PidgeyMail from his niece/granddaughter Flannery? What if when you visited the Unknown Dungeon you had a final mixed encounter with Giovanni (reformed) and Rocket President #2 (still stubborn in his ways) and had a dual battle alongside Giovanni against Johto Rocket Pres and his aide? Wouldn't that be sweet? I mean, I hate doubles battles normally, but can you imagine fighting side-by-side with Giovanni!? In the Unknown Dungeon of all places? It'd be amazing. Notice that none of this had anything to do with levels, EVs, berries, trade items, TMs, or anything else related to battling. Sometimes I think people mistake the forest for the trees. They think that Pokemon is all about monsters which fight other monsters. And yeah, that's definitely the #1 feature. I'd be a fool to suggest otherwise. But being #1 doesn't mean being the only one. There's a lot of room for plot in Pokemon and the more lands you include in one pak the more opportunities there are to see old rivals and old friends show up to aid you or hinder you as you explore the new lands.
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06-12-2009, 03:18 PM | #287 | ||||
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Anyways, ignoring GSC's superior creature design: Damn right. Quote:
My other, separate issue with Kanto in GSC is that essentially nothing happens plotwise. Johto's problem in GSC was the lack of a challenge because Kanto's presence shortened it and drove it's challenge factor down. Kanto's problem in GSC is that it was completely pointless; it had no plot, was even easier than Johto and because peoples teams where already set by the time they got there, it gave no motivation to people to catch more pokemon. It's as if they said "we have this fantastic new region. I know, instead of making it the best we can, let's just save ourselves the trouble and tack Kanto on the end as filler!" In short, for me Kanto was no fun in GSC, and it's presence made them take the fun part of the game (Johto) and make it less challenging and shorter. EDIT the first: Quote:
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06-12-2009, 03:45 PM | #288 | |
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As promised, the comparisons of my favourite pokemon of each type from gen 2 and gen 3, in reply to Vrans much earlier (and fairly random) one.
Spoiler: show Had I included RBY's pokemon (which appeared in GSC but not RSE), It would have been GSC 25 RSE 5 (with RSE still winning dark, ghost and legendary #3 (Zapdos vs Regirock) and drawing grass type and grass starter). Grass type and grass starter are purely based on the first evo; the Meganium line, as a whole, is far superior to the Treecko line in terms of design, but the first stage is my fave for design in both lines. And that's one of the reasons I loved Johto and GSC so much.
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06-12-2009, 04:01 PM | #289 |
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Slow.......bro? At first I thought it was just a typo, but then I saw that you double-dipped later by including Slowking.
Come to think of it, you double-dipped an awful lot. And you did so in retarded ways. Like comparing Entei with Torkoal? I'll agree with comparing Entei and a Regi, or comparing Entei with a Lati, but comparing it with Torkoal is retarded. Never mind that you're citing Entei twice. Good God, you did it for Heracross, too! What is with you and double-dipping? Does GSC really have so few cool monsters that you're pitifully forced to recite the same monsters over and over again against different RSE lineups? Okay, I'm done with you. -_-; "Chikorita vs Treecko, 5 to 5. Draw." Then a few paragraphs later, "Chikorita vs Treecko, 13 to 7." What. The. Fuck. You can't even make up your own mind, let alone keep from listing the same creatures over and over again. Try again when you're not blinded by fangirl rage.
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06-12-2009, 04:09 PM | #290 |
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I think the Ruins of Alph is much better than Lava Cookie. GSC >>>>>>>> all other games.
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06-12-2009, 04:12 PM | #291 | ||
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Pokemon were included twice when they fitted in two categories; for example, Heracross is both the best designed bug and the best designed fighting type in gen 2, and Entei is both the best designed fire type and one of the legendary trio. I repeated Regirock for RSE as well, due to it being both a legendary trio and the best designed rock type in gen 3. Slowbro was a type; meant Slowking. Also, you tried to compare Huntail to Stantler; how can you criticise mine as being random? The first 17 were "best designed of type x". Then I moved on to starters, then legendary trios, then the mini cute legendary, then version mascots, then pseudo-legendary. All perfectly reasonable categories compared to some of the weird comparisons you made. Entei vs Torkoal was "best designed fire type of gen 2 vs best designed fire type of gen 3". Makes perfect sense as a category compared to what you had; I mean, Milotic vs Togetic? What category was that supposed to be? Also, I'm a guy, not a "fangirl", and I don't appreciate being sworn at. And I'm not angry. Sorry if I came across that way :P. I was just making my own comparisons based on my taste. I was slightly angry in my previous post where I addressed your response to my issues with Kanto, but not with you, with gamefreak :p. Let's not turn this into another flame war after the thread managed to get back on track :P. EDIT the first: If you want to see my redone version without double-dipping, I'll post it. The only difference it makes it take GSC now takes best grass (Bellossom vs Ludicolo), rock (Tyranitar vs Aggron) and flying/dragon (Kindgdra vs Flygon or Noctowl vs Swellow, depending on which loses Altaria). New end result without double-dipping; GSC 22 RSE 7
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06-12-2009, 04:26 PM | #292 | |
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I think we can return to this debate when acceptable lines of comparison can be drawn. |
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06-12-2009, 04:29 PM | #293 |
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I'll make it really simple for you. Let's pretend that I have these eight Pokemon to compare: Grumpig, Ludicolo, Pachirisu, Pikachu, Piloswine, Slaking, Snorlax, and Vileplume. What would be the appropriate comparisons for ranking these 8?
Pikachu vs Pachirisu. Both are electric rodents designed cutely. Meowth vs Skitty. Both are normal-type cats. Vileplume vs Ludicolo. Both are 3-stage grass-types that evolve from their 2nd to their 3rd stage via a Leaf Stone. Snorlax vs Slaking. Both are large, lazy Normal-types famously associated with attacking. Assume, please, that you agree that the creature names in bold above are the winners of their respective contests. Putting on hold your gross mismatching of these eight monsters, the crime of double-dipping becomes apparent as follows: "Well, I'm going to prove to you that RSE is better than RBY!" "How?" "Well, for starters, Skitty is a lot better than Meowth. RSE 1, RBY nil." "Okay, I'll give you that." "Second! Skitty's a lot cuter than Farfetch'd!" "Huh?" "2-0!" "Yeah, but you already--" "Third! Skitty's waaaaaaaay cuter than that stupid Jigglypuff!" "Well, I agree, but you can't--" "I can't what?" "You can't keep mentioning Skitty over and over." "And why not?" "Because it's not a fair comparison!" "Why? Because you'll always lose? " "No, you dummy!" "I don't appreciate being called a dummy." "Well, sorry! But if you don't see why it's stupid of you to keep reusing Skitty over and over, let me spell it out for you: if half the monsters in one generation are better than half the monsters in another, and vice versa, but you keep comparing the very best monster from one generation to all the competition in the other generation, you're going to generate unfair, lopsided results." You can't keep reciting the same GSC monsters over and over, Concept. It would be like if I said that Chikorita is better than Tangela, Victreebel, and Exeggutor. I agree with you that she is, but you can't use that to prove that GSC is so much better than RBY when it comes to grass-types or to Pokemon period. First of all, you're childishly avoiding the most logical comparison -- grass starter with grass starter -- which is thankfully something you didn't do in real life just a second ago. But second of all, and something you are guilty of, you didn't give the losers a fair shot at other creatures from your much-beloved GSC.
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06-12-2009, 04:38 PM | #294 |
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Here's a specific example taken straight from your list. Heracross, you said, is better than either Armaldo or Hariyama. I agree. But let's even the score and introduce a different bug or a different fighter from GSC. How about ... Ledian? Or perhaps Hitmontop? If pressed to pick between Hitmontop and Hariyama, I'd pick the sandbag sumo any day over the fugly spinnytop/breakdancer hybrid. But since I wasn't given that choice -- since I had to pick between Heracross and Hariyama -- I'd obviously pick Heracross once again. This is why double-dipping creates inaccurate results. What before would have been 1:1 now artificially becomes 2:0.
That's why it's retardedly childish of you to insist that you get to use Chikorita twice -- "once for grass and once for starters!" -- and then count it twice. I mean, think about it. If I say that Torchic is better than Cyndaquil and you disagree, that's bad, right? But wouldn't it be even worse if I said, "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in a fire pokeymon fight. Torchic wins! 1-0!" and then I turned right around and said, "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in a fire starter fight! Torchic, da winner! 2-0!" "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in the lightweight cup! Torchic! 3-0!" "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in the orange-colored monsters contest! TORCHIC! 4-0!" And so on and so forth? It's inflationary of you to try to do this to your poll to justify GSC landsliding RSE when, in reality, your numbers probably would have been closer to 55%/45% if you'd picked the appropriate comparisons and not rehashed GSC's best over and over.
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06-12-2009, 04:43 PM | #295 | ||
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If you give me 5 minutes, I'll duly edit sans double dipping. Also, I said that this comparison was based on my favourite of each type from each, then the categories mentioned. If you want, I'll list all the pokemon from each gen I think look cool. I'm pretty sure RSE will still lose IMO despite it having more pokemon. Give me 5 minutes to do those things for you. Actually, I compared the very best of one generation to the very best of another, not the very best of one generation to all in another.
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06-12-2009, 04:48 PM | #296 | ||
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Instead of redoing it seeing as you obviouslt have issues with me using your method of comparions, I'll compile a list of all the pokemon I think look un-fugly enough to use from each gen. Just give me a few minutes to do it, savvy?
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06-12-2009, 04:48 PM | #297 |
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Here's a suggestion: Since these specific comparisons are difficult to draw and subject to overlap due to a lot of commonality between multiple species, why don't we compare more general aspects, such as types, classifications, or stages instead of picking each individual 'mon and pitting it against something that shares a single quality?
This way, we have a more general and rounded comparison and don't have to worry as much about foggy lines of comparison. |
06-12-2009, 04:54 PM | #299 |
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I'm confused since Heracross was available in Ru/Sa. Are you guys arguing over which game is better, or which generation of Pokemon is better, or which region is better? You all seem to be inconsistantly switching from the three.
I don't see how one set of Pokemon can be better than the others either, they're all made by the same person. Teddiursa, Elekid and Tyranitar are all awesome, but in the same hand Gligar, Magcargo and Qwilfish are all fugly. Corphish, Medicham and Dusclops are awesome, but Banette, Manetric and Torkoal aren't so appealing. This also brings on the matter of opinion, everyone has their preferences, and if they didn't the world would be a boring place. Some people probably love Torkoal or Gligar, but I've never really liked them all that much. The only fair way of doing your comparison would be firstly comparing every possible combination of 2nd and 3rd gen Pokemon, then getting several other people of different ages and cultures to compare the two generations. Once you've tallied the results you'll have your fairest answer
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06-12-2009, 04:59 PM | #300 |
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Perhaps the best thing to do from an aesthetic point of view would be to do as you said but with the Poké-ignorant, meaning none of our votes would count. Instead, we'd have to ask people who don't recognize the Pokemon and have no vested emotional interest in any of them, "Hey, if you had to pick, which of these two would you say is more appealing to you? Cuter? Scarier? Stupider?" And so on.
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