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Old 04-12-2014, 06:44 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
I assume from your Level 86 comment that you're talking about Random Battles. If not, disregard. If so ...

What you've said is not quite true. ^^; Don't get me wrong: each is very good, and getting both on one team is very good. But I can still think of Pokémon I'd rather have in Random Battles than those two combined. Flame Orb Sigilyph is one. Durant is another. Klinklang is a third. Not only that, but it's definitely possible to overcome the combined weight of Alomomola and Swellow. It depends on a bit of chance and a lot of savvy, absolutely, but that's Random Battles for you.

Swellow: getting up Stealth Rock before he shows up helps. Anything that resists Normal and Flying (Steels, Rocks). Anything that has Protect. Anything that outspeeds him or out-priorities him.

Alomomola: gaining control of the flow of the match and gently forcing your opponent to save Alomomola for last. The #1 strategy for dealing with any Regenerator staller. Faster Pokémon with immunity to Water and Substitute. (No Toxic damage, no opportunities for Scald to burn either.) Anything with Attack-boosting or Special Attack-boosting moves and an Electric move. (E.g. Nasty Plot Mismagius.) Entry hazards to punish frequent switching in and out (i.e. Regenerator abuse).
Yep, Randbats.

In the battle I had right before I posted this, the person sent out Swellow first, while I led with a Wormadam-G. They switched to Alomomola while I set up Stealth Rocks.

Other pokemon on my team:

Raichu and Thundurus without any electric type moves

Aggron/Mega Aggron

Sylveon

Zangoose

I had Zangoose set up with a SD and Toxic Boost activated, but Alomomola scored a protect twice in a row and switched out to Tyranitar, so I didn't get very far. Eh, I see what you mean about the counters. Maybe if Thundurus/Raichu had Electric typed moves >_> (Raichu had Substitute, Signal Beam, HP Grass, and Nasty Plot. Thundurus has Substitute, Encore(I think), Focus Blast, and HP Ice.

It was winnable, I just got frustrated and couldn't regain lost ground quick enough.
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:59 PM   #1652
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Wherein Trick is used frequently to amazing effect. (Random Battle; 31 turns)

Spoiler: show
My comment at the end was immediate; it shows up post-battle because PS is dumb with server lag. Typed and sent out that comment the moment he chose to put up a sub despite being choice locked.

But if you're reading these comments before watching the battle, don't let this fiool you: "to amazing effect" does not equal that final turn, oh no. The amazing Trick plays (of which there were several) occur during the height of the battle. Definitely worth checking out if you want to see what damage Trick can do when used in precisely the right moments.
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Old 04-15-2014, 07:04 PM   #1653
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It's not funny anymore. Now it's just sad. I thought this was an April Fools' Day joke. Apparently not.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:25 PM   #1654
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So they finally brought up Speed Boost Scolitrain. Considering Blaziken was Ubered for SB, I'm glad to see some consistency after the massive screwup in the Swagger ban.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:27 PM   #1655
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...they aren't going after Speed Boost my word what is this
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:31 PM   #1656
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Even if SB isnt directly brought up, the fact that they metion Scolipede having it as part of their supposed Baton Pass danger may help rid some of the meta problems it creates. Little strokes, little strokes.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:35 PM   #1657
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Speed boost Scolipede isn't exactly causing many problems in the meta. Yeah, its a pretty awesome Pokemon when used right, but the sheer ubiquity of Talonflame in the meta ensures that sweeping sets don't work well, not to mention the fact that it is walled by the more common physical walls. Scolipede is definitely not a problem in the meta.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:37 PM   #1658
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Scolitrain with Baton Pass may shed some negative light on Speed Boost which I assume you were hoping to see eventually based on your previous posts. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

>Talonflame

NU has a huge counter for that sucker. Say hellow to my Nasty Plot T-Bolt Minun, it wants to kill half your team. It can and will.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:54 PM   #1659
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Scolitrain with Baton Pass may shed some negative light on Speed Boost which I assume you were hoping to see eventually based on your previous posts. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

>Talonflame

NU has a huge counter for that sucker. Say hellow to my Nasty Plot T-Bolt Minun, it wants to kill half your team. It can and will.
Hi Minun, my name is Talonflame, and I Flare Blitzed your ass. Have fun being unconscious
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:04 PM   #1660
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With each passing day, I become more and more disappointed at how several members are proving Haunter's decision to make a People-Who-Know-What-The-Fuck-They-Are-Talking-About Thread correct.

Like ... seriously. It's getting to a point now where I feel like we may have to make a thread that you're not allowed to post in, myself included, unless you have an OU score of _____ or higher. (Example: Elo 1650.) And the thread has a life of three months, so every three months you have to reprove that what you have what it takes or else you're barred from posting in the latest thread.

Man do I hate to do this. Man do I hate that I even am thinking about doing this. Because man if I don't hate the snobby Smogon staff for having created their Elites Only subforum in response to the challenges blaze, I, and others raised in the first of the two Swagger discussion threads. But man if I don't feel like this thread is being polluted by ridiculously uninformed comments from players who have no fucking clue what they are talking about.

[/mean rant][/projects that will never happen because UPN lacks the architecture to make implementing such a scheme both feasible and painless for Kuno]
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:51 PM   #1661
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> In conclusion, the best course of action to deal with Baton Pass is to ban Magic Bounce.

This is the kind of shit that makes me shake my head. It reeks of "waaah my HO".
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:19 AM   #1662
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I...don't see any problem here. People see that with the introduction of a pokemon, a previously only reasonably viable playstyle has shot up to being overcentralising, to the point where if you don't run a very specific counter to it you will lose. So, they're looking to ban it, because overcentralising things get banned. And while there are some idiots looking to ban just Baton Pass or just Speed Boost, I think the people whose opinions actually matter to the guys who make these decisions are going with things like Magic Bounce + Baton Pass or Scolipede with Speed Boost and Baton Pass. It makes perfect sense to me...which makes me think I must be missing something.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:06 AM   #1663
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Since NU is about the only thing I played in Gen V, and will be the thing I play if I go back to playing regular Smogon tiers, I can only say this:

Yay for FF!

Not that that's very active at the moment, but at least we can make our own decisions that aren't based on banning things that are a half-issue at best.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:14 AM   #1664
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Clone you'd be surprised

I own halves of Übers teams with Minun alone.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:03 AM   #1665
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I can say this:

I've played quite a few OU matches on PS. Not as many as Randbats, but still a lot. I can not recall seeing a single baton pass team. And if I did, and forgot, they aren't sn issue. Mandibuzz beats Espeon every single time, and can Whirlwind anyone else. I honestly see no problem with them. Baton Pass teams usually aren't that good either way. Only one pokemon in the chain (or two if you count MegAbsol) can't be hazed. That's it. And both have paper thin defenses.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:46 AM   #1666
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I can say this:

I've played quite a few OU matches on PS. Not as many as Randbats, but still a lot. I can not recall seeing a single baton pass team. And if I did, and forgot, they aren't sn issue. Mandibuzz beats Espeon every single time, and can Whirlwind anyone else. I honestly see no problem with them. Baton Pass teams usually aren't that good either way. Only one pokemon in the chain (or two if you count MegAbsol) can't be hazed. That's it. And both have paper thin defenses.
Xatu also fits into that category, although it also has crap defenses but some people use it as the offensive 'mon. Still not hard to defeat
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:05 AM   #1667
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Xatu is illegal with Baton Pass, as it only got the move with a Gen 3 event.
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:19 AM   #1668
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some people use it as the offensive 'mon.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:14 AM   #1669
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I...don't see any problem here. People see that with the introduction of a pokemon, a previously only reasonably viable playstyle has shot up to being overcentralising, to the point where if you don't run a very specific counter to it you will lose. So, they're looking to ban it, because overcentralising things get banned. And while there are some idiots looking to ban just Baton Pass or just Speed Boost, I think the people whose opinions actually matter to the guys who make these decisions are going with things like Magic Bounce + Baton Pass or Scolipede with Speed Boost and Baton Pass. It makes perfect sense to me...which makes me think I must be missing something.
You could make the exact same argument against HO and you don't see Smogoners clamoring to ban things like Talonflame.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:24 AM   #1670
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I...don't see any problem here. People see that with the introduction of a pokemon, a previously only reasonably viable playstyle has shot up to being overcentralising, to the point where if you don't run a very specific counter to it you will lose. So, they're looking to ban it, because overcentralising things get banned. And while there are some idiots looking to ban just Baton Pass or just Speed Boost, I think the people whose opinions actually matter to the guys who make these decisions are going with things like Magic Bounce + Baton Pass or Scolipede with Speed Boost and Baton Pass. It makes perfect sense to me...which makes me think I must be missing something.
"The people whose opinions actually matter," as you put it, don't like to do what you've said they like to do. They resent complex bans and celebrate simple bans. It goes back to their head-in-the-sand mentality that their rules are made for game pak players and not just for nor primarily for simulator players. They resented requests to complex ban Swagger and chose not to. They resent calls to complex ban Speed Boost Blaziken and still choose not to fix it. They will almost certainly not complex ban anything in this latest discussion: whether the axe falls on Baton Pass or Magic Bounce, whether the axe falls on Espeon or Speed Boost, they are almost certainly going to go for another simple ban.

Not that any of this excuses the lunacy and hypocrisy of their current witch hunt. (As Jeri and others have noted and shall continue to note.) But I just wanted you to realize that your argument has a very big mistaken assumption about the Smogon brass in it.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:38 AM   #1671
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Weird- I skimmed through the first page and most people said that, but going further through the thread they don't want to do complex bans. =/

It would not surprise me in the least if an alternative to Smogon is made very soon.
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Old 04-16-2014, 09:03 AM   #1672
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It would not surprise me in the least if an alternative to Smogon is made very soon.
PokéBattle is in semi-closed beta right now. Whether the project sinks or swims remains to be seen, but the people behind it have at least managed to get this far, which is a hell of a lot farther than most "If only there were an alternative to Smogon ... " dreamers tend to get. Rather than relocating Pokémon to tiers of play, PokéBattle assigns a score to each individual Pokémon; so long as you don't go over the total score limit for any given tier of play, you can put whoever you like on your team.

Pokémon-Online already exists, but as everyone knows they more or less run Smogon rules. Technically they don't? Technically they have their own rules? But most Smogon rules are P-O rules and vice versa. For example (and this was raised by the Smogon staff as support for their own actions), P-O was the first to simple ban Swagger. So I don't know that they would be a satisfactory alternative to Smogon for you or for most of us. It would take a lot of anti-Smogon pressure from within the P-O community for the P-O staff to take a more active approach in distancing themselves from their cousin.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:12 PM   #1673
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The only thing Id be happy with is a complex ban on Baton Pass. The move in itself isnt broken, but whole teams around it are almost impossible to beat if played right.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:26 PM   #1674
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Wherein I establish what I told you guys the other day: I'd rather have one Durant than have one Swellow and one Alomomola. (Random Battle; 15 turns)

Spoiler: show
He makes the mistake of attempting to Spore me which allows me to get two Hone Claws instead of the usual one. While that might be argued for having given me the 6-0 sweep, it was not necessary to give me the easy win: even if Durant had only 3HKOd Ludicolo and even if it had gotten burned from a Scald, it was still going to put a major, major dent in my opponent's team. It would've killed Ludicolo successfully (taking only one unboosted Scald at best). And it would've brought Simipour down to ~53% HP remaining. (94% HP damage divided by 2 = 47% HP damage.) I probably would have used Superpower in this position and lost Durant at the end of the turn, but as you can see that would've been okay: the Hydro Pump, had it hit, would've KOed Durant and Simipour still wouldn't have been in much of a position to Nasty Plot up. Alternatively, he would've been risking me using another Superpower and brining him to ~30% HP remaining. Easy territory for my Prankster Volbeat to use Tailwind and for me to then revenge kill Simipour with my Starmie.

Long story short, Durant is pretty damn close to an instant win button in competent hands. Blazing fast, as powerful as a cannon ... he's a monster in Random Battles. If his speed matched in OU, people would have pleaded for his ban from Gen 5 OU back in 2011, I guarantee it.
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Old 04-17-2014, 04:45 AM   #1675
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Durant really is sickly good in Random Battle.
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