07-09-2011, 09:46 PM | #1 |
我が名は勇者王!
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Steins;Gate
Steins is a title I've been watching for the past season. It is a spin-off of Chaos;Head in a sense, set in the same universe, two years after C;H and in Akihabara instead of Shibuya. It is also very, very hyped by the Japanese audience, but Americans seem to be a lot more critical of it.
A Japanese fan even went so far as to tell me (paraphrase), "So what if Steins has a lot of plot holes? You will see why it is called "god's game" among the Japanese players, and if not that's just your opinion". Such gall! We'll find out indeed! The plot is part interesting, part inane. Basically, a rag-tag group of kids held up in the second floor above an appliance store create a sort of time machine out of a microwave and cell phone, but it's limited to only sending text messages into the past. However, the European Organization for Nuclear Research - CERN - actually a centuries old illuminati group bent on manipulation of history, is after the time machine for its own ends, and has targetted the group! Steins' plot has some good ideas, but is plagued by poor execution. For example, the time travel theory featured in Steins is a sort of mix between grandfather paradox/multi-worlds, but rather than let the characters discover this through their experiments and gradually reveal the story's internal logic to the viewer, it's flat out told to the viewer early on by a revisionist John Titor (now posting on 2ch, because he is Japanese in nationality) so when we actually see the experiments carried out, there's no real surprise in the outcome and conclusions. Additionally, the story also perverts some science concepts to the point of absurdity, belying common sense. The Large Hadron Collider, for example, isn't just a particle accelerator, it's a literal black hole that can be harnessed remotely to compress and transmit information, like WinZip. -_- Unfortunately, this was the good part. Steins' only strength is its plot, which is interesting if plagued by cliches, inconsistent logic and some questionable literary license on science concepts. The much needed human element, when existant, is almost offensive. The characters are awful. Some of the worst I've seen in any show recently - they have annoying gimmick personalities, and have little to offer beyond those personalities to endear them to the viewer. They are also incredibly stupid, not just for regular people, but the roles they play as well. These characters are simply not believeable, and one can't connect with them at all. Not even in a "put yourself in their shoes" kind of way. For example, the main character Hououin Kyouma is intelligent enough to build the time machine prototype, but when actually experimenting he does consecutive borderline retarded things - dangerous, irresponsible things that regular people would think twice about doing, let alone a scientist/inventor with a computer hacker and Physics prodigy at his side, actually approving of it! And then, when bad stuff happens, we're supposed to feel sorry for Kyouma because he's a victim of circumstance and conspiracy outside of his control? Where I'm at in Steins Kyouma is basically faulting himself for the creation of the time machine, completely ignoring the more obvious issue of what he did with it being the problem. "If I hadn't made the time machine, I wouldn't have been as retarded as I was!". Pleeeease. I'm currently at the half-way point in the show, and many have said that this is where the plot picks up. It had better, the first 13 episodes were slow and painful. So, I'm sticking with it, just to see where it takes me. But I'm forecasting the characters won't become more sympathetic, given the plot focus, so that will always be the #1 fault I have with the show. Also, I expect future episodes to be non-linear, much like the first few episodes were. So it may be pretty confusing... Bottom line? The jury's still out. Steins' biggest selling point is its plot, and the plot is 13 episodes late, so I can't really call it out yet. But the anime thus far already gets a C for dragging its feet for the first half, failing to develop unlikeable characters and being a bore. If one were going to pick it up, though, now is the time since the plot is just starting to kick into gear, and one doens't have to trudge weekly through the awful first half.
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07-09-2011, 09:52 PM | #2 |
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I think I'll wait until the final one or two episodes before picking this one up. ^^;
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07-10-2011, 02:02 AM | #3 |
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I feel that's prudent, or maybe in about 4-5 episodes. From our experience with Remember11, I'd say that talking about this story in real-time would be an entertaining way to spend a few hours each week. Not once did I get the impression that Steins;Gate was as intelligent and researched as the KID titles, but it's got a visual novel plot, so there's some complexity there above the norm of typical anime.
Remember11, Muv-Luv Alternative and Steins are the three games I've played/seen in some form that deals with quantum ideas, and I think MLA actually handled them the best. But as a cross comparison between them - I expect this'll improve as Steins' plot gets laid out, but I doubt the poor characters will ever turn positive.
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08-31-2011, 01:22 PM | #4 |
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So as the series wraps up, what are your thoughts? Still haven't started it. I don't see many people talking about Steins;Gate and whenever I do they don't seem too happy about it. Is this a Must See despite its negative rap? Is it an Okay series that you wouldn't quite label a waste of time? Or is it a big pile of disappointment? Are you even still watching it, Doppel? If so, let us know what you're feeling at this late hour.
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08-31-2011, 02:13 PM | #5 |
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I'm two episodes behind, and need to catch up.
But thus far, it's a bit like a poor man's Remember11, and hinges on people inherently finding the main characters quirky/amusing. When I say hinge, I mean the door falls off the frame, flat on the floor if the audience is alienated by the cast. If the cast comes across as stupid, and/or annoying, you're in for a long ride. Must see? No. Watchable? Yes, and it's a change of pace from almost everything else airing in the past two seasons. I haven't had this "sophistication" vibe since Higurashi or Utawarerumono aired in 2006, although I feel Steins tries to be more intelligent than either of those two but finds itself on middle ground or knee deep in quick-sand. From what this Japanese player on AP says, the biggest reveals are still yet to come, so I'm just going to tight and wait for the alleged "Blick Winkel caliber" twists. I don't really know what's left to twist, except for explanations of those surreal, "beginning of time"/"inside the black hole" scenes we were shown early in the show.
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08-31-2011, 04:08 PM | #6 | |
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Admittedly, we've already discussed reasons why Muv-Luv would be hard to translate from the VN scene (for which it was apparently perfectly crafted) to television, but you'd think they'd have at least tried. That somebody would have at least tried. Kyoto Animation (Kanon, Clannad) hasn't. Neither has OLM (ToHeart, Utawarerumono) or their child company White Fox (Steins;Gate). But from what little I do know about the games, I don't get the impression that Muv-Luv is as unanimatable as is Ever17. That's a game which you'd pretty much have clueless weeaboos foaming at the mouth screaming "ENDLESS EIGHT! ENDLESS EIGHT! " were you to animate it the way the gameplay is meant to be experienced and which, were you not to animate it that way in a bid to keep the clueless fans content, you'd completely screw up. The game pretty much has to be played start to finish Path 1, Path 2, Path 3, and Path 4 before you can embark upon Path 5 and see the true end of the game. Trying to combine all four paths together chronologically just wouldn't work, not only because Takeshi handles some (Tsugumi, Sora) while Kid handles the others (Yuu, Sara) but also because truly different outcomes affect the LeMU survivors depending on which path you take and you wouldn't be able to experience, for example, the Tsugumi Path True End if you were to say "No, we're just going to do 24 episodes and the canon we're going to adopt is Coco's path's good ending." And you need those other ends to really get the full experience. But is Muv-Luv plagued by the same situation? Wow, this post quit being about Steins;Gate pretty quickly. Something something mushy green bananas something something. I'll try to get it back on track.
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08-31-2011, 07:56 PM | #7 | ||
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To clarify, Ever17 isn't a poor man's Muv-Luv. I still feel Ever17 is a masterpiece, but I get a lot of mileage out of themes, and boy oh boy did Muv-Luv hammer its themes. They're both excellent, but Muv-Luv Alternative is like the Star Wars: A New Hope of VNs. It literally plays like a movie, and has the production values to boot. Quote:
ML/MLA is tougher because the routes are mutually exclusive, meaning a lot of anime needs to be devoted to telling the same story as the visual novel. The action also demands an incredible budget, so one needs to pump a lot of money into any ML project. We'll see how Total Eclipse works. I don't have high expectations.
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09-15-2011, 12:49 AM | #8 |
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I was quite surprised to find Episode 24 to be the final episode of Steins. Without much more material, I don't really have a choice but to review it now.
This anime is terrible. Terrible, terrible, terrible. It is cheesy and cliche beyond belief, and there is no consistent internal logic. So much of what happens in the story is certified organic bullshit. Most time travel tales subscribe to two different models, the Everett Interpretation (parallel worlds) or the Grandfather Paradox, the latter of which implies that reality exists because time travel is a fixed event. In other words, the past can't be changed, traveling back in time only maintains the current future. Suzumiya Haruhi has an alternate interpretation not grounded in scientific literature - a non-linear time-space continuum that is constantly in a state of flux. The past isn't set in stone, and neither is the future, though there is only one "official" reality, and individuals who leave it and return once it has changed become "sliders". Thus, while parallel worlds don't exist in a spatial sense, they exist in a temporal one. Steins is a resonance form of all three - it starts off superficially similar to Haruhi's, then assimilates several contradictory ideas from the Everett Interpretation, finally calling in the Grandfather Paradox to justify events inspired by quantum mechanics. There's no consistency to how this world works. I suppose a middle school student with no prior exposure to time travel like Back to the Future might find Steins impressive, but the overly complicated and poorly thought out logic is so bad, it bites a lot of the drama in the story. Though most of the drama is pathetic anyway, because much of the story is build around the main character being autistic. Even real-life, normal people aren't this stupid, so the story comes across as ridiculously contrived. Because it also has a "closed door" cast typical of many mystery stories, all of the named characters are tied into the plot in some way. All of the characters are stupid, though the main character is the worst, but there's absolutely no character development at all. How does the events of Steins change the main character? The ultimate conclusion of the pen-ultimate episode is he shouldn't change at all. And he doesn't in the finale. Ho-ly fudge. I had more to say, but I've forgotten it. Highly disappointed, I fear for the future if Steins is hearalded as the visual novel equivalent of the Second Coming. Final rating - Atrocious Highlights:
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09-27-2011, 07:44 AM | #9 |
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I read a post the other day. Someone claimed that Steins;Gate was "the anime of 2011." Not Kaiji. Not Fate/Zero. Not Madoka. Steins;Gate.
I gotta say: now I'm curious to see if maybe you just really hated it for some weird Doppel-specific reasons but to the rest of the world it's at least an okay show. The problem is, you've made it very clear what your grievances with the series were: and these grievances are very big ones. Inconsistent logic? Poor pacing? Bad characters? It's hard to imagine how one could love such a show. Yet the fact that someone did piques my curiosity once again. Soo ... who did you watch it with? HorribleSubs DDLs? Or was there a group actively subbing this after Mazui et al dropped it when it got insta-licensed with whom you watched this program?
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09-27-2011, 11:45 AM | #10 |
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A friend of mine is in love with Steins;Gate, and he certainly recommended it well enough to me. While Dopple's review does make me hesitant to pick it up, I'd be happy to join a second beta test crew if you're willing, Talon.
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09-27-2011, 12:05 PM | #11 | ||
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Then again, I also took a deliberately extreme position because Steins is the #1 VN in Japan and is supposed to be a transcendental experience like many of the VNs we've played in the past. Not only is it not of that caliber, it's not even deserving of best title in the year it came out! 5pb marketed the heck out of it because they want it to be a trend setter for VNs in the next few years (you may recall 5pb's corporate ideology was to "update Ever17 for modern audiences", and all of their 'modern audience' VNs have been otaku pandering VNs). I think of 5pb as a would-be Macintosh trying to pitch their iPod, and it enrages me because their ideas are Quote:
When you're finished be sure to read this for a chuckle. It's so typical of the people praising Steins.
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09-27-2011, 01:20 PM | #12 | ||
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09-27-2011, 02:44 PM | #13 |
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AnimeSuki is a lot more open and tolerant than ANN, and lacks the corporate agenda that taints whatever said there. They're sort of a middle ground between ANN and 4chan - ANN is fascist about R1 spending, 4chan heralds the great age of piracy. In either place, I went to influence people, not because I appreciate their discussion. I save that for here and Arlong Park.
Depending on the topic at AS, you could find a great sub-community, or a terrible one. In Steins case, I noticed most of the viewers were aged 18-24 and had only recently graduated from training wheels - shounen anime. These are the same people who whole-heartedly supported Steins in Japan, i.e., the people who voted Ever17 in 2002 were *NOT* the same people who voted Steins in 2010, but there were a lot more people voting Steins in 2010 because of otaku references and moe stereotypes.
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09-27-2011, 03:08 PM | #14 | |
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I only lurk AnimeSuki for Haruhi updates and images (and genderbending). Followed some discussion on Ano Hana during its run, still check back occasionally for art/music. Wasn't aware you actually had an account there, Dopple. Had trouble finding you until I thought to search "Remember11". My hunch was all but confirmed when I saw other posts by the user on Muv-Luv and Ever17. ^~
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10-04-2011, 07:19 PM | #15 |
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Whoops! Forgot we had a thread for this! Allow me to cross-post what I originally included in this post.
Just finished Episode 1. I rather enjoyed it. Interesting premise, if somewhat difficult to follow with what seems like no fewer than two separate time jump events having occurred all in one episode. Spoiler: show It's interesting. I really like Mayushii (the girl with the white dress and summer hat). Is her voice the same as Tomo's voice in Seikon no Qwaser? That may be why I like it so much. The main guy's voice reminds me of Lelouch from Code Geass. Is it him? Too lazy to look these up right now. Going to prepare dinner and maybe watch the next episode. EDIT-UPDATE: Just watched Episode 02. Great episode. This is why I don't want to watch sci-fi thrillers while they're still airing. The suspense in between weekly airings would just kill me! Going to go watch Episode 03 right now/soon!
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10-05-2011, 12:03 AM | #16 | ||
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It has a good premise. That's one of the few things I can credit Steins with, but the direction leaves a lot more to be desired.
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Her CV does have a role in Qwaser, not that I know first-hand. Quote:
Same CV as Light from Death Note though.
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10-05-2011, 08:20 AM | #17 | |
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The moment I saw that he voice Ling Yao in FMA:B, I don't why but it suddenly clicked -- and sure enough, there it was further down the page: he's the voice behind Dent (Pokémon BW: Best Wishes)! I can totally hear it now. Can't find any samples to link on Youtube (stupid ShoPro ;_; ) but yeah: that's where I've heard this voice from dozens of times in the recent past.
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10-05-2011, 11:45 AM | #18 |
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His name's Mamoru Miyano, and behind Fukuyama he's other of the two definitive "young, adolescent, refined villain" types.
I feel his Steins performance was one of his worst. It's not a case of getting used to his performance, as I did Souichirou Hoshi in Muv-Luv (he sucked in ML) he just doesn't get the job done even considering what character he's playing (an idiot).
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10-05-2011, 05:13 PM | #19 |
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Through Episode 05. I'm enjoying it. It's fairly stupid in some ways (discussed below), but I am not yet seeing any reason to hate it as vehemently as Doppel eventually did. Perhaps I, too, will eventually despise it; but for now, the series seems on par to me with Remember11. That is to say, it is good. A MyAnimeList score of 7/10 - "Good."
Spoiler discussion (spoils some plot events thru Episode 05) Spoiler: show What episode are you on, Yuki? Do you want me to slow down (if ahead)? Do you want us to go at our own paces or to try and stick together? Just let me know. I'm eager to watch more, and will probably watch Episode 06 here in a few seconds, but if you're not that far and want to have someone to watch this with, I can slow down. I would like to watch it faster than one episode a week though. Not interested in subjecting myself to the Kaiji Experiment for this series. ^^; I already did my time and paid my dues with the real broadcast of Kaiji Season 1!
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10-05-2011, 05:19 PM | #20 |
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I just watched episode 02 earlier. ^^; Didn't think you'd carry on that far ahead.
I actually have somewhere to be at 7:00. When I get back I'll continue watching the show, and we can discuss more over chat if you want.
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10-05-2011, 06:33 PM | #21 | ||
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Hey Talon, what do you know of John Titor? Did you read his stuff way back when in 2000/2001?
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Kyouma is by far the biggest offender in that regard. He's supposed to be a scientist, just not in the super-genius league of Makise Kurisu or Daru. He invented the cellphone-microwave and a host of other unusual gadgets requiring more than an ounce of technical expertise. But he constantly does stupid things that undermine this credibility, and goes full autistic after "the climax".
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10-05-2011, 07:11 PM | #22 |
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I don't know anything about John Titor and have avoided looking him up for the time being.
The episode with the Spoiler: show Glad to see you appreciate the JP reference. Anyway, update ... halfway thru Episode 07. I can't help it. Episode 06 ended with such a character cliffhanger -- the development/further introduction of the beautiful and mysterious Kiryuu Moeka -- and I just had to see what was going to happen. So on to Episode 07 I flew. But first, thoughts on 06. Then 07. Spoiler thoughts on Episodes 06, first eleven minutes of 07: Spoiler: show
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10-05-2011, 07:32 PM | #23 | ||
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I'm stunned. I asked because I had a hunch that it might be possible you don't know him, but it's still shocking. Even when I first heard of Titor, back in 2005, he was already pretty famous on internet forums. It's really amazing you don't know. I'm tempted to make a Harry Potter comparison here, though it's not 1:1 correspondence. Quote:
Sliding is an excellent segway into Steins' thinking. It's not correct, but is closer to the truth than actual time-travel is.
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10-05-2011, 07:47 PM | #24 |
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Is he really that famous? I take it, then, that I should keep up the not looking him up? ^^; Still haven't. Honestly, if I hadn't seen a link to his name on Wikipedia the other day at the very bottom of the Steins;Gate article (which I opened purely to grab names, don't panic , haven't seen anything there, I promise), I would have thought he was a purely fictional character. I mean, at this point, my guesses would be ...
Spoiler: show
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10-05-2011, 08:01 PM | #25 |
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If you know anything of John Titor's background, it makes one of Steins' 'twists' more obvious. Though, once you catch on to what the story is trying to do everything becomes predictable. There are no Coco's Path intensity twists in this story.
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