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Old 09-10-2015, 11:00 AM   #51
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I really like that idea, mostly because I may or may not rise to TL4 with that new setup but it gives incentives for ASBers to rise in the ranks more while not gimping them heavily on Pokemon.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:02 AM   #52
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I just say it's a bit low since I'm personally about 40 KOs off TL8 and have the TP for it, and my personal record is pretty stellar. But yeah sure I can see it being fine if you're okay with the idea of people converting TP into SP pretty regularly at higher TLs.

Edit: Actually what you just fixed it to works fine.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:04 AM   #53
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I really want KOs to be the thing that dictate levels, not TP. Frankly, we could probably get rid of TP as a whole but TP slots are a thing.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:08 AM   #54
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Okay so here's the biggest issue with this proposal in tandem with our proposed level acquisition changes - we've literally just made it so a bunch of TL6 shit is now at the equivalent of TL5.

If this proposal is going to achieve any of the goals it was supposed to with tiering, we're going to have to split TL6 up again.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:09 AM   #55
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I like the one proposed. Tbh, I also like Snez's idea for the KOs reffed instead of matches reffed. It makes more sense tbh.

>Split TL6

That's fine with me.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:16 AM   #56
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Splitting things up and rejiggering the Acquisition Levels is perfectly fine imo, just so long as they don't go above the TL7 mark due to the aforementioned LOL THAT TAKES FOREVER TO GET TO and CONNOR/DAVE/SNEAZE ARE NOT THE STANDARD THEY ARE THE OUTLIER.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:17 AM   #57
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idk I don't think it's worth it anymore.

We've basically just lost nearly everything we were going for with this proposal but I don't think we have much choice at this point.

Additionally:

TL4: 15 SP
TL5: 20 SP
TL6: 30 SP
TL7: 40 SP
TL8: 50 SP

Instead of matches/KOs, with the caveat that if you sit around and spam a bunch of levelers to farm SP, we're not going to let you ref fun stuff.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:20 AM   #58
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SP works well. Achieves the same goal KOs does in that it doesn't make you want to only ever grab 3v3/4v4 matches, but also has the added benefit of helping people who are fast by giving them an effective extra benefit.

I also really don't feel like you've lost the effective results of what you were trying to achieve, tbh. This system has a post-game that stretches a bit farther than the other did, and at the same time doesn't make the stairs to get there too big for the average person to properly climb.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:45 AM   #59
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Having another incentive to get SP besides slots is good. I like this.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:02 PM   #60
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Alright then. With these hashed out, do people feel these are fairer? If so I'll go ahead and edit the announcement and we can pretend like this never happened. That means we can also get onto the track of talking about specific Pokemon and their acquisition levels.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:05 PM   #61
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I think this seems better, a big thankyou to jeri & Connor. I know we all appreciate how much work you have been doing to improve pasbl. Cheers
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:09 PM   #62
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Bear in mind, though, that retroactive SP earning is not being observed. If you want to level under the current changes, you will have to gain the SP required to level up (though we're running amnesty on everyone who would go down in level due to these changes).
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:19 PM   #63
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Welp time to earn 90 SP before I earn 40 KOs. Yay~

On topic of acquisitions... Can we PLEASE talk about the Chansey/Blissey disparity?
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:23 PM   #64
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Alright. Personally I would say leave Chansey at TL3, but bring Blissey down to TL5 at the least. While I do accept there is little difference between them, from a personal viewpoint, we shouldn't lug people with Happiny until TL4 because Happiny is nowhere near as usable as Chansey. I accept Chansey is worth the TL4 spot, but I don't want to put it there because of the aforementioned problem with Happiny being ... really terrible.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:25 PM   #65
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Generally going to stay out of this thread lest anyone discover that I secretly control the LOs but just throwing in my two cents:

Umbreon TL8, it's too powerful for mere mortals.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:29 PM   #66
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More like I still don't like it, but it seems like everyone else seems to agree with it for the most part. Clearly, it's going to be a thing, even if I disagree, and Sneezey's system setup is much better, and makes it less like a chore. Relatedly, honestly I still prefer the KO-reffing system to the SP-earning one, but it does seem that one is the popular one that is going to happen, and there's nothing super wrong with it.

You seem to think I was being contrary just to be contrary, and I guess it's fine if you want to believe that about me. Clearly I was not wrong that the initial changes were not a great step, that needed a lot of improvement and discussion from the community. You can read into me supporting a better-set-up system that the community had a say in, than the original proposal that has several problems, whichever way you want.

Yes, Concept, clearly you have me down to a T

(That part was a reply to Concept, meant to indicate that. Whoops)

Continuing on to better things, the Acquisition shuffle really depends on what you're wanting to shuffle. TL7 needs to be a small but powerful pool

So, from what I'm hearing, this seems to be the proposed reqs now?

TL2: 10 KOs, 30 TP
TL3: 30 KOs, 75 TP
TL4: 50 KOs, 125 TP, 15 SP earned
TL5: 80 KOs, 200 TP, 20 SP earned
TL6: 120 KOs, 300 TP, 30 SP earned
TL7: 180 KOs, 420 TP, 40 SP earned
TL8: 240 KOs, 550 TP, 50 SP earned

Assuming that 5, 6, 7, 8 needing 1, 2, 3, and 4 badges, respectively, and only one may be a non-Gym Badge?

That does seem to sort out the levelling reqs in a way that works and doesn't screw the lower levels, definitely approve there, as long as Acquisitions have the bit of sorting done they need.

Now, on to a related topic: the levelling up rewards.

There's two things on my mind here

We have a lot of Tokens that were put together and token culture was really pushed when they were introduced. But aside from Mega Tokens (which don't play like Tokens in-battle, anyway, being unaffected by item moves) and the token efforts of releasing some for sale occasionally on holidays (all type-exclusive except New Life, which has its own significant restrictions, so while they can be negated, they cannot be stolen by a Pokemon unless it's facing a Pokemon that shares that specific type with them. Not the most common occurrence). We've got a lot of lost potential of learning how to play with items here. Many of them are not seen as worth the SP to buy to try them, so no-one uses them, so in turn, no-one wants to buy them. This is a new and exciting dimension that has been on standstill for awhile.

And with these new levelling rewards, the TL1 Mega Stone was sbatched away and put at TL2, and the TL3 one was kicked to TL4. So we've taken away from the rewards from levelling to TL3, and something that was auto-granted. TL3 now only gives slots, which stands out significantly when comparing to what you get from ascending to other levels.

So I propose giving out a free type-enhancing token (Mystic Water, Charcoal, etc) to TL1s (call it consolation for losing the Mega Stone), with the same kinds of stipulations that they can be exchanged, either during limited windows that the LOs allow Mega Stone exchange, or, even better, limited by timeframe. So, like, for example, maybe you can only exchange it for a different one every 3-4 months or so. So if you pick it up or exchange it, you have to wait at least 3-4 months before trying to switch it out (this would probably be a better system with Mega Stones, too, actually). And then, at TL3, a second token. Perhaps one of the more advanced miscellaneous tokens instead of a type one, or something.

Either way, this will improve the variety of the League, and make it not feel like we've kinda screwed TL1 and TL3 by kicking their Mega Stones upstairs. That way every level has something other than slots to look forward to, but it's mixed-up enough that it's also not stale. And it lets especially the lower TLs learn how to play with items, which is something that should be fostered.

Okay, I think I've got my bases covered here
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:37 PM   #67
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Is Leavanny really a TL3 material? I don't know it can actually be good, I have only recently started battling, but IMO it shouldn't be in the same acquisition level as Venomoth, Volcarona, Galvantula and Escavalier.
Bump.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:38 PM   #68
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Okay so while I'm not ignoring things right now I feel the need to reiterate that, even if by the new points system you move up, you will have to get the requisite SP to do so before you do. So if you're a TL5 and suddenly have the requirement KO/TP for TL6, you do not immediately jump to TL6 - you'll need to get the necessary SP first.

---

With regards to type enhancement tokens I don't think that's a particularly bad idea. I'm also half tempted to lump the choice of picking up a Contest scarf in there too, but I'll take this on and have a chat with Jeri.

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With regards to Leavanny, I'm afraid to say the way we structure Trainer Levels for things which aren't utterly and irredeemably usable without Signatures (see: Combee, Weedle, Caterpie), TL3 is the lowest we can feasibly fit Leavanny. It's the same for Vileplume and the a greater extent Bellossom. Personally they strike out as TL2 Pokemon, but they're both TL3 because of necessary evolutionary progression.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:54 PM   #69
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I think SP earned as the requirement is the flexibility that we should've had (coaching really should've counted towards the requirements), but I still don't think it's perfect. Though I suppose it's good enough and we can fix it if it's abused.

I think the lowered KO proposal is a bad idea, but I won't one man army it.

Acquisitions probably need a lot of big fixing in light of the reduced KOs and TL8 though. Now TL7 needs to have a bunch of pokemon to make it worthwhile. Meta and Lapras should go back up at minimum. I'm okay with dropping Blissey to TL5, because it differentiates it from Wiggly and Clefable, which is good, though that point is moot if we bring those two up a level. It can live okay at 5 regardless though.

I think token/scarf idea is pretty good.
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:41 PM   #70
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I think going on what Stealthy said about putting pokemon up to TL7 I could also potentially see Clefable and Eelektross up there though I think they could fit in our current TL6 as well
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:55 PM   #71
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I'm not really sure what the point of TL8 was, I thought we had a pretty good working system already and it wouldn't have resulted in many problems but if this is what the community is happier with and it still fulfills what was planned originally in this change, its fine by me.

On the Chansey / Blissey thing, it should really follow the model of the other pink blobs we already have. Chansey should remain TL3 just like Clefairy and Jigglypuff so we don't leave people with the much inferior Cleffa / Igglybuff / Happiny and keep Blissey on the same level as Clefable and Wigglytuff. It's typing is not necessarily worse than the other two, its about the same level in terms of movepool, and in all honestly, its about as good as the other two. Maybe slightly less, but not enough to merit it dropping down an entire trainer level.

>Leavanny

Alright so I do understand the point being brought up, but as a note, Beeheyem is a TL2 poke and it is far from not salvageable and is probably better than Leavanny. If you want to keep consistent with it, I think that's fine, but then you either need to drop a good number of TL3 Pokemon down (which honestly is not a bad thing) or do the simpler but not necessarily better option of bumping Beeheyem up.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:03 PM   #72
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So okay, this actually brings up something interesting.

Trainer Level 7 gives you a free Historic Badge, do we keep this the same or move that up to Trainer Level 8? Do we in general need to have another look at rewards or should we just leave TL8 as 'you get to challenge an Uber'?
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:07 PM   #73
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I feel that TL8 shouldn't just be a placeholder level, aka the new TL6, just so that we can keep to the system we want (if that's honestly going to be the case, just nix it and keep seven Trainer Levels). We need to do something that makes TL8 and TL7 feel desirable. I don't know if getting to challenge the Mew brothers is exactly that, at least for me.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:10 PM   #74
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I think one thing that would be good for TL8 is possibly a free Legend Rental match. After all if you can only have a single one from those categories ot might help as far as figuring out what you plan for there. Just a thought.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:11 PM   #75
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I can get behind the new changes.
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