06-30-2015, 04:01 PM | #76 |
我が名は勇者王!
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I would argue John is at fault in Mozz's example.
Deciding to start transitioning from male to female with the certainty of causing issues for co-workers isn't courteous. Rangeet's argument that the clients need to grow up isn't realistic. Mozz and his entire business is harmed by one person who has little care for the group. The proper course of action is to schedule leave and complete the transition, or resign. I had surgery two weeks ago and was in pain before I had it (and right now ), but I scheduled my surgery/recovery to have the least impact on my co-worker's schedules as possible. IMO, pregnancy is the same kind of slippery slope, and there's been loads of talk about what maternity leave does on workplaces.
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06-30-2015, 04:15 PM | #77 |
You sayin' I like dudes?
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So true, not sure why people hire women anyway! They could get pregnant at any time!
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06-30-2015, 04:22 PM | #78 |
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Married childless women under the age of 40 have a slightly harder time getting through the interview process since hiring managers assume that there will be maternity leave with the possibility of them quitting soon after. Not that they're wrong, but the bias is real.
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Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website. |
06-30-2015, 05:12 PM | #79 | |
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06-30-2015, 05:14 PM | #80 |
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Just pointing out from what I remember hormone treatment can take years to reach the intended effect. It's not something quick.
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06-30-2015, 05:25 PM | #81 |
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Also some people still go to work as their birthgender while transitioning, only going as their new gender when they're comfortable with their looks.
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06-30-2015, 06:03 PM | #82 |
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The problem is that in Mozz's example, John is not going the nice thing, and he isn't doing the right thing. In fact, he's being a colossal asshole, and that kind of thing would get me or any of you fired.
However, due to the fact that this assholery is localized around John's gender shift, he cannot be fired for this attitude, even if there is a measurable decline in office morale, profits, or anything else important that you care to name. It's one thing to tell people to "grow up and live in the 21st century" and it's quite another to tell people to "grow up and live in the 21st century and by the way please continue to give me your business so I can eat." Because this cannot be satisfactorily worked into the text of an anti-discrimination law, these things tend to not be popular with even the most accepting businesses. On the one hand, I think trans people would be really benefited and protected from businesses who are bigoted and seek to fire trans people simply out of some misguided moral sense. On the other...it's not fun to have to deal with, even if it's rare. And before someone jumps down my throat with a "BUT BUSINESS DOESN'T CARE", most businesses are perfectly happy to increase minority representation including LGBT, but are (understandably) nervous about having an employee who can do whatever they want and not get fired.
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06-30-2015, 06:17 PM | #84 |
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Base God Jeri, smite this thread.
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06-30-2015, 06:22 PM | #85 |
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Seriously? It's an interesting discussion, and both sides are being relatively respectful. Don't click the thread title next time, then.
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Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website. |
06-30-2015, 06:26 PM | #86 | |
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I don't know how they would feel emotionally knowing that. The customers hate you and the people supporting you are suffering as a result. How could someone continue to work there understanding that?
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06-30-2015, 06:37 PM | #87 |
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I'm kinda sorry but I don't agree with anyone that a person should go years without work. The change is typically very gradual anyways.
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06-30-2015, 06:39 PM | #88 | |
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I think it's somewhat similar with their example. It isn't John's fault he doesn't feel right being in a man's body. But it is his fault, his discourtesy, to force his transition upon others knowing full well that it will compromise team performance and customer satisfaction. He is making a conscious choice to drag his employer with him through the transition process rather than do it on his own time outside of work -- even if to do that requires that he leave for several months to a year. The issue here is, you seem like you'd take vehement issue with someone comparing a transgender transformation with catching the flu -- and there are loads of people in society who are on the other end of the spectrum, also taking issue with my comparison but because they're horrified by the normalization of TG. ~*~*~*~*~*~ I think it's unreasonable to expect all employers to accommodate gender changes in every setting. An easy enough example: if a NASA astronaut decides to go through with a gender change, including surgery and hormone therapy, then I think all of the following are more than reasonable:
That's the problem with a lot of current events in law: we keep seeing sides wrest for generalized rulings and legislation when life's really too complex for sweeping generalizations and we really need to look at things on a case-by-case basis. In my NASA example, NASA is accommodating and doesn't want to lose the employee. But if the employee can't perform their job during treatment (e.g. hormone therapy affects judgment and judgment cannot be allowed to be affected on space flights), or if the employee can't perform their job after treatment (e.g. breast implants present inoperable risk in space flight), then it's reasonable to think that NASA should have to let that person go -- or at least, not let them go on space flights anymore.
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06-30-2015, 06:53 PM | #89 | |
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06-30-2015, 07:05 PM | #90 | |
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So if a pregnant woman in Indiana is faced with the possibility of a zero-pay maternity leave, then I think TG Hoosiers have a steeply uphill battle to fight if they want full pay, months on end, while they net their employers absolutely nothing.
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06-30-2015, 07:11 PM | #92 | |
You sayin' I like dudes?
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06-30-2015, 07:14 PM | #93 | |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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I don't want transgender people to be labeled welfare rats either. People hate people who live off of welfare and people already don't like pregnancy leave. You think they are going to accept "okay he's going to be living off of our tax dollars for the next two years so he can transition"? They aren't. I want protection for transgender people so they can transition in the work place without fear of being let go. It's the only reasonable way to do it.
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06-30-2015, 10:23 PM | #94 |
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Funny thing is that a lot of the arguments being lobbied from the side hesitant to accommodate for transgender people are the same arguments that biased employers used to discriminate against women and gays in the 60s, pre-Stonewall. That's the problem with lack of proper anti-discrimination protection in the eyes of the law: it legitimises prejudice. Frankly, you roll out the anti-discrimination legislation to apply for all jobs, as they did for maternity leave, and a few archaic people groan, but then the industry moves on eventually. I'll point out that one of the staunchest advocates for marriage equality were big businesses because in the 21st century, they are realising that having diversity and anti-discrimination policies actually makes them more appealing to investors. Yeah, fifty years ago, these same companies were not fans of the LGBT community but in 2015, they realise that they gain more out of being liberal (less bad media, more diversity, etc) than they lose from the unlikely hypothetical that John would suddenly impose them with a transition which burdens the entire team.
tl;dr, Rangeet's post is the simplest and bluntest summation of everything. People need to stop making the issue more frightening and complicated than it actually is: you roll out the unfair dismissal policies to apply to everybody, and then people accept & move on to the 21st century. It doesn't seem like it would be that simple, but you'd be surprised. Anyway, this thread is starting to veer towards some accidentally transphobic comments, and I've said everything that I have to say, so I'm going to Amy Schumer myself out of here before the proverbial hits the fan. |
06-30-2015, 10:51 PM | #95 | ||
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You guys should totally play Muv-Luv Alternative (after Extra/Unlimited). There's a huuuuuuge discussion about identity in that one.
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Mozz's example featured a man wearing a dress and behaving like a woman. A less extreme example is someone who didn't take to sexual reassignment surgery well. Another good analog is the morbidly obese person. it's about personal appearance. Judging based on physical appearance is practically instinct. It's the same reason people don't dress like slobs to work. Quote:
This was completely un-necessary.
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06-30-2015, 11:07 PM | #96 |
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>This was completely un-necessary.
It might be passive-aggressively accusatory but I think it's not out of place to remind people to at least try to be a little sensitive, considering we do have trans members in this community. |
06-30-2015, 11:09 PM | #97 | ||
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Glad I'm not the only one who thought so. Originally scrapped this reply:
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tl;dr no one likes a white knight.
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06-30-2015, 11:16 PM | #98 | |
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I feel like both sides are basically looking at this particular problem in black and white when the reality is much grayer than either side wants to believe. |
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06-30-2015, 11:18 PM | #99 |
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I know the reality is grayer, that's precisely been my point. Yes they are looking at it from a purely philosophical standpoint but its unrealistic and uneducated, and some of the things that have been said or implied have rustled my jimmies. I already fear going into the work force.
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06-30-2015, 11:21 PM | #100 |
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It's understandable and I'm definitely not faulting you for it, but saying "people who are transitioning are going to be unable to work while they do" is also kind of unrealistic.
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