UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-08-2010, 09:14 PM   #1
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Ditto

He's an interesting Pokémon but nobody wants to use him because of a constellation of debilitating flaws:
  1. You lose one turn just using Transform. It'd be a fair trade-off if Ditto otherwise offered its user a potentially lean 'n' mean advantage over his adversary, but since it doesn't, it just amounts to one free turn for the opponent.
  2. Ditto's stats are poor: a base stat of 48 in each of the six stat categories.
  3. Ditto's ability, Limber, while a nice ability does not help him out any.
  4. Ditto doesn't retain its transformed form upon exiting the battlefield. This amplifies the problem mentioned in No.1 above.
  5. Ditto is limited to transforming into what is currently out on the battlefield.

Were we to address each of these problems, Ditto might become something really quite overpowered. The goal is not to make Ditto a ban-worthy über. The goal is to merely address one or two of these problems to make Ditto something of a borderline Pokémon between awesome and acceptable. So with that thought in mind, my proposed changes for Ditto.
  1. Ditto still has to use the Transform command. In other words, you still have to sacrifice one turn while your opponent does not.
  2. Ditto can now use Transform at any time. It does not have to be in its base form to use Transform. Ditto will have five (5) moves when it is in a transformed state: Transform plus the four other moves learned from the Pokémon Ditto transformed into.
  3. Ditto can target who it wishes to transform into. The list immediately accessible to it is:
    • everyone on your team
    • the Pokémon currently facing Ditto
    Other Pokémon from the opponent's team are added to the list as Ditto sees them in battle. Then and only then. Once a Pokémon is added to the list, it remains there for the duration of the match. But Ditto has to see it with its own two eyes for it to be added to the list.
  4. Ditto's EVs do not change as a result of transformation.
  5. Ditto's IVs do not change as a result of transformation.
  6. Ditto's stats can change as follows:
    • if Ditto's stat is higher than the stat of the Pokémon it transformed into, Ditto's stat remains the same
    • if Ditto's stat is lower than the stat of the Pokémon it transformed into, Ditto's stat becomes Ditto's stat + one-half the difference between the two stats. For example, if Ditto's stat for Defense is 90, its opponent's is 170, and Ditto transforms into the opponent, Ditto's new Defense stat is 90 + (170 - 90)/2, or 90 + 80/2, or 130.
    This policy allows Ditto to better mimic the staying power of the Pokémon it transforms into while disallowing Ditto, as an imposter, the opportunity to match those it transforms into flawlessly. There should be some incentive for using the real deal over using Ditto. The incentive for using Ditto is already clear -- the fluidity Ditto affords its user. But at the same time, it's lethal to Ditto's usability to insist that its stats remain rigidly fixed. Nobody wants a Ditto on their team in large part because Ditto's base stats are 48 across the board. If Ditto transforms into a Pokémon whose base attack is 130, then Ditto's base attack would become 48 + (130 - 48 )/2, or 89. Not amazing, but also not too bad.
  7. Ditto's new ability would be this:
    "Ditto gains life whenever an attack which hits Ditto is of the same type as Ditto's currently-transformed state." Basically it would be like Water Absorb Arceus-style minus the plates. The purpose behind this new ability would be in fitting with Ditto's entire gameplay principle: outsmarting, outmaneuvering, and outperforming the foe. What Ditto lacks in raw power (its stats, even with the proposed boost) and in moveset versatility, it makes up for in its limberness, true to its current ability's name. However, Limber doesn't really help Ditto out. This ability would. It would not be broken or cheap. It would require correct guesses. Smart guesses. The Ditto's user would need to know when to attack, when to retreat, and when to transform into something new. For the most part, transforming into something new would be preferable to retreating, thanks to the new ability to transform whenever and also thanks to an existing demerit I plan on keeping. (See below.)
  8. Ditto will return to being a plain, ol' Ditto if it is called back or otherwise made to leave the battlefield. This is to ensure that the Ditto user cannot simply spend one turn to transform their Ditto into a second Mewtwo or Garchomp and then recall him to wait on the sidelines until he is needed. It is also not seen as a terrible thing to keep on in light of the new condition that Ditto can still use his Transform move even after he has already transformed into something. Whereas other Pokemon retreat, Ditto is more likely to pseudo-retreat by means of transforming into somebody else on the team.

I think these changes would make Ditto more fun to use, more able to be used, and would still not be sufficient to catapult it into the über tier nor into the upper echelon of the OU tier. Your thoughts?

Last edited by Talon87; 06-09-2010 at 07:38 AM.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 09:18 PM   #2
ZoraJolteon
BBCode Master
 
ZoraJolteon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,030
I think you don't understand what IVs are.
__________________

Superior Christmas Banner is Superior.
Also still looking for ref with brain, although not just now due to Tyranidos running in fear.
ZoraJolteon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 09:23 PM   #3
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoraJolteon View Post
I think you don't understand what IVs are.
Good call! XD I was thinking in my brain "current stats" but wrote IVs the whole time. Let me go fix that. Thanks.

Okay, fixed. Also added a new line above the old one specifying that the IVs (this time I really mean it! lol) should be static.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 11:01 PM   #4
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,734
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
"Ditto gains life whenever an attack which hits Ditto is of the same type as Ditto's currently-transformed state." Basically it would be like Water Absorb Arceus-style minus the plates. The purpose behind this new ability would be in fitting with Ditto's entire gameplay principle: outsmarting, outmaneuvering, and outperforming the foe. What Ditto lacks in raw power (its stats, even with the proposed boost) and in moveset versatility, it makes up for in its limberness, true to its current ability's name. However, Limber doesn't really help Ditto out. This ability would. It would not be broken or cheap. It would require correct guesses. Smart guesses. The Ditto's user would need to know when to attack, when to retreat, and when to transform into something new. For the most part, transforming into something new would be preferable to retreating, thanks to the new ability to transform whenever and also thanks to an existing demerit I plan on keeping.
How is this not broken? It would imply Ditto transforming into the Pokemon it's currently looking at would grant it immunity against at least one move that opponent has. I haven't played Pokemon PVP in years but at least to me, a typed Pokemon would at least have one move of its type of the four.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2010, 11:06 PM   #5
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Yeah. It'd be broken if it said "I absorb 3 or 4 of your moves." Saying "I absorb 1 or 2 of your moves" doesn't strike me as broken. Ditto's still a P.O.S. with base stats of 48. (Or, as per my recommendation, base stats of 48 plus 1/2 the difference between Ditto's base stats and the opponent's.)

Example:

Ditto transforms into a Gengar while facing down a Snorlax. Just suppose.

(1) Ditto is now immune to normal-type attacks, Snorlax's only STAB.
(2) Ditto now gains life if hit by Ghost-type or Poison-type attacks. Most Snorlaxes would know neither.
(3) Ditto is still vulnerable to Earthquake (since it does not inherit Gengar's Levitate ability! All it copied were its moves and types!), and Snorlax could very well know this. Kaboom.
(4) Or, Snorlax may know other moves.
(5) Or, he may not and them's the brakes and Snorlax needs to be switched out.

It's not broken. It's competitive. That's the entire point: that Ditto today is nowhere near competitive. Suggesting that fixes which make him competitive are making him broken is frustrating, to say the least. ^^;


Your post did make me think of a second possibility for Ditto's ability, albeit a rather boring one imo: have Ditto's ability be whatever the Pokemon he's transformed into has. So, for example, if Ditto transforms into Gengar then his new ability is Levitate. If he transforms into Charizard, Blaze. If he transforms into Absol, Pressure. So on and so forth. I don't really like that, though, since it would return Ditto to uncompetitive status. The only saving grace I gifted him with was the ability I described. The stats thing was merely to make him usable since base stats of 48 aren't going to be usable in any century and most of his current demerits I've left in place.

Last edited by Talon87; 06-08-2010 at 11:09 PM.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2010, 03:17 AM   #6
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,840
That's a long list of fixes 0_o

But you have a good point. And those fixes would improve ditto vastly. Too vastly? As you said, most likely not. A pokemon that can transform into a pokemon and gain immunity to said pokemon's stab moves would be quite interesting. As you said pokemon most often know moves of other types. And, if a pokemon didn't Ditto would make an excellent switch inducer. The one thing that seems a little edgy is that Ditto would become just about the perfect counter to Ghost-types. Switch in on a NE Ghost move, Transform, gain immunity to type-spam, and type-spam back. I guess you could also say this applies to Dragons, but not so much, as Ditto wouldn't be able to switch in on them.

Quote:
since base stats of 48 aren't going to be usable in any century and most of his current demerits I've left in place.
You never know; A series of moves that deal damage the greater the foe's stats might suddenly dominate the metagame. :P
Okay, even then, Ditto would be outshone by Sunkern. XD
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 11:31 AM   #7
Selena
Aroma Lady
 
Selena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,757
I know this thread is kinda dead and all, but... Not to mention this didn't exist back then

Eccentric (dream world) removes the turn to transform. Problem solved.

I find it funny that nintendo did just that to improve ditto, what was to be found too uber in this thread
Selena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:01 PM   #8
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Quote:
Originally Posted by milotic111 View Post
I find it funny that nintendo did just that to improve ditto, what was to be found too uber in this thread
Nooooooo, I didn't say that. I said. "Were we to address each of these problems, Ditto might become something really quite overpowered." Nintendo's only addressed one of the five listed problems in Post 1. It's a great thing that they've addressed it, but the author of this thread -- me -- doesn't think that this one change alone is "too über" of a change.

To be honest, so long as Nintendo fails to address No.2 in that list, they could address every other problem Ditto has and he'd still not be competitively worthy. Base of 48s across the board is abysmal.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:42 PM   #9
Loki
Yummy
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,071
DITTO FOR BASE 150 ACROSS THE BOARD!! YOU CAN DO IT DITTO! I BELIEVE IN THE HEART OF THE POKEBALLZ!! PENIS!
__________________
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:43 PM   #10
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
I didn't ask for that either. If you had actually bothered to read my post, you'd know that. I asked for a pretty modest change to his stats: one which would neither make him broken nor relegate him to NU.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:53 PM   #11
Loki
Yummy
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,071
That is unfortunately not possible and you know it thanks to how EVs work.

Depending on Ditto's transformation target, even if Ditto was like 75-90 across the board (which is decent), you cannot EV train it properly to get it versatile enough to copy and be as useful. If Ditto had 150 across, it could compete with a Skarmory in defense; it could compete with a Ninjask in speed; it could compete with a Mewtwo in being broken, even with minimal EV investment in any category.

The sheer idea of Ditto being even slightly usable in competition is a big FUCK YOU to whoever trained Ditto's target.

"Check it out! I worked really hard to breed and hatch my Pokemon with all the awesome moves. I even had to chain a bunch of egg moves to get this combination!"
"Oh. Good to know. Lemme copy all that in 2 seconds with my Ditto and somehow kill your guy with it."
"..."
"GG. My 2 second investment really kicked your hundreds of hours of work."
__________________
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 01:23 PM   #12
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Not necessarily. You act like EV training a Ditto is impossible and therefore there's no alternative but to make him broken by giving him IVs on steroids and therefore no fun at all for the opponent. I disagree. I disagree big time. You can totally EV train Ditto. In fact, that's part of what would make him balanced.

If you remove EVs from the equation, then Ditto is either bad at everything or good at everything. The former makes him undesirable to be used, the latter undesirable to fight against. But if you leave them in the equation, then what you start to see is that Ditto is a high risk, high return kind of guy. He could prove to be a huge liability to your team of six if, for example, you EV train him to be a mixed sweeper but your opponent is always running Pokémon whose speed exceeds 100 base and has 252 Speed EVs invested. In that case, Ditto is only ever going to be copying over the movesets of sweepers -- and he's going to be slower than them each and every time. He'll always get hit 2nd. Because that particular opponent decided to not run a MixedGross, MixMence, or to even run slower Pokémon in general like Blissey or Bronzong.

Vice versa. You decide to EV train your Ditto in Physical Attack and Speed. You're counting on the fact that your opponent will:
(a) have at least one good physical sweeper for you to copy;
(b) not be able to successfully KO your Ditto when you switch it out to copy that sweeper
(c) somehow lose to your Ditto (who has copied their sweeper) or else will switch out to someone else, giving Ditto a break for one turn; and
(d) have at least one Pokémon who fills a crucial role on their team and who happens to be vulnerable to physical attacks

That's a ton of Ifs. What if the opponent has zero physical sweepers on their team? What if they have one but it's way too strong for Ditto to switch in against? (e.g. Garchomp) What if you pull that off but the rest of their team has no vulnerabilities to physical sweepers?

You act like a base-90 Ditto would be unusable, and I don't think that's the case. He'd never be OU, but making him OU was never the point and the sooner you realize that the better. He also wouldn't be NU any more. He could see use. For sheer novelty, he'd be popular.

Factor in the EVs, which for some frustrating reason you keep factoring out , and Ditto is hardly broken. Ditto is a huge gamble, is how I've retconned him. Yes, in the right place and time he can rape a team. But those times'll be few and far between. And if the opponent who loses that fight can't appreciate that and feels cheated for the reasons you just outlaid in your last post, then too bad for him. He needs to grow up and get over it.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 01:38 PM   #13
Selena
Aroma Lady
 
Selena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,757
Uhm, you DO know that ditto copies EVERYTHING (EV's, IV's and even statboosts) save HP when transforming right?

Or is this a 100 stat accross the border in exchange for the copy discussion?
Selena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 01:43 PM   #14
Cascade
Pokemon Trainer
 
Cascade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 59
Send a message via MSN to Cascade
Yeah, agreeing with milo here. If you'd go over to smogon, you'd see it's really popular right now, and one of the most potent (yet one-note) threats so far.
Cascade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 02:11 PM   #15
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Nope. Thanks for the correction.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 02:49 PM   #16
Loki
Yummy
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,071
This discussion is purely about Talon's insane Ditto idea from pre-B&W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
If you remove EVs from the equation, then Ditto is either bad at everything or good at everything. The former makes him undesirable to be used, the latter undesirable to fight against. But if you leave them in the equation, then what you start to see is that Ditto is a high risk, high return kind of guy. He could prove to be a huge liability to your team of six if, for example, you EV train him to be a mixed sweeper but your opponent is always running Pokémon whose speed exceeds 100 base and has 252 Speed EVs invested. In that case, Ditto is only ever going to be copying over the movesets of sweepers -- and he's going to be slower than them each and every time. He'll always get hit 2nd. Because that particular opponent decided to not run a MixedGross, MixMence, or to even run slower Pokémon in general like Blissey or Bronzong.
This is a moot argument. This is faced with every Pokemon, not just Ditto. Does this Salamence know fire attacks? Does this Garchomp have max speed? Does Metagross have Thunderpunch? Does T-Tar pack... whatever it damn wants?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Vice versa. You decide to EV train your Ditto in Physical Attack and Speed. You're counting on the fact that your opponent will:
(a) have at least one good physical sweeper for you to copy;
(b) not be able to successfully KO your Ditto when you switch it out to copy that sweeper
(c) somehow lose to your Ditto (who has copied their sweeper) or else will switch out to someone else, giving Ditto a break for one turn; and
(d) have at least one Pokémon who fills a crucial role on their team and who happens to be vulnerable to physical attacks

That's a ton of Ifs. What if the opponent has zero physical sweepers on their team? What if they have one but it's way too strong for Ditto to switch in against? (e.g. Garchomp) What if you pull that off but the rest of their team has no vulnerabilities to physical sweepers?
You just explained why (your) Ditto is unusable. Even without any stat increases. With base stat increases to 90s, it's still considerably too risky to run it. Either you copy your foe and get an inferior specimen (which you likely would in OU), or you go in with a Pokemon that doesn't have any of the right investments for the build. That's why only outrageous stats would be the only thing that made Ditto usable (and broken).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
You act like a base-90 Ditto would be unusable, and I don't think that's the case. He'd never be OU, but making him OU was never the point and the sooner you realize that the better. He also wouldn't be NU any more. He could see use. For sheer novelty, he'd be popular.

If he had base 90 all across, had a free copy on switch in, then he would easily outmatch most UU and NU Pokemon upon copying (if we continue to use your Ditto stats).
Lemme copy your Lucario! Oh. I have less attack and special attack and only marginally higher defenses, but no defense investments. And I might have not got the right offensive EV investments. And we are weak to our own typing. This base 90 all around so made me better >>;

-or in UU-

Lemme copy your Claydol! LOL I have higher offenses than your original Claydol while still maintaining decent defenses and higher HP. Lemme spam Calm Mind and blow your own Claydol away with his own moveset. Totally not broken.

In either situation, you are either superior or inferior to your target. And it will either turn out broken or useless, both of which are bad. If Nintendo had to choose 1 direction, I would rather have more useless Pokemon than overpowered Pokemon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Factor in the EVs, which for some frustrating reason you keep factoring out , and Ditto is hardly broken. Ditto is a huge gamble, is how I've retconned him. Yes, in the right place and time he can rape a team. But those times'll be few and far between. And if the opponent who loses that fight can't appreciate that and feels cheated for the reasons you just outlaid in your last post, then too bad for him. He needs to grow up and get over it.
The whole idea was not factoring out EVs. It was the fact that Ditto is either incredibly broken or incredibly unusable. People don't play with gambits like that or else every Blissey/Clefable/Snorlax would be running Metronome and 'hope' to bank out somehow. Who needs consistently useful Pokemon when we can have one that MIGHT be useful?

It isn't like running a Tentacruel and wondering "Oh man, I wonder how useless this Liquid Ooze is if my opponent never uses a draining attack!" Tentacruel is still useful even if Liquid Ooze never triggers. It fits under "Oh man, this Pokemon is completely useless- I may as well have had not brought it," category.

If B&W Ditto is a copy everything Pokemon (which I thought old Ditto was also aside from the need to Transform), then I assume the only limiting factor is it's PP (like when using Transform). It's hardly a balancing force considering it becomes the ultimate middle finger. Turning every match with a Ditto a coin flip that is evenly 50/50. Most Pokemon do have the power to KO themselves if offensive and if defensive, have no way to kill their clone, forming a stalemate (which I guess the PP limit might work on). But with knowing that, no one would clone a defensive Pokemon. Ultimately it forces everyone to play in "Can I kill my own sweeper?" style. If you have no answer for your clone, you are boned when Ditto shows up and gets a lucky first attack. A rather annoying Russian Roulette game.

"Salamence? GO GO Ditto! Do that funky Outrage! We have a 50% chance to kill him in one shot too!"
"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF"
"Oh man my 2 second Ditto just raep'd your- GACK!"
*strangling*
__________________
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 03:09 PM   #17
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Well, it looks like our argument is moot anyway. If what was said earlier is to be believed, then Gen5 Ditto copies the opponent's IVs and EVs, making him a bonafide replica of the opponent. And since he transforms passively now (i.e. without wasting a turn to do it), it means it's a 50/50 chance he hits his opponent first.

So basically, Ditto will see much more use in the next year than he has in the last ten. People will come to hate him and he'll be banned by many players. This is pretty much what I didn't want to have happen, and it has.

But contrary to what you said, it looks like Nintendo's on my side: "if we had to pick between broken and unusable, we'd pick broken." Fuck unusable, man. Why would you want the franchise littered with more Farfetch'ds than Garchomps? Both are bad, but fuck Farfetch'd, man!
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 03:12 PM   #18
Selena
Aroma Lady
 
Selena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,757
If it satifies you, copiing everything applied to gen I to IV aswell. Now just without the set-up turn.
Selena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 03:46 PM   #19
Cascade
Pokemon Trainer
 
Cascade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 59
Send a message via MSN to Cascade
Just tossing in that Smogon has for the most part decided the only usable, most efficient Ditto carries a Scarf.
Cascade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 04:36 PM   #20
Selena
Aroma Lady
 
Selena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,757
Make that most reliable. In a trickroom team, give it an ironball/machobrace
Selena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 11:52 AM   #21
Talon87
Nebby. Back into the bag.
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,496
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
I'm through page 17 right now of the Ditto thread on Smogon. It seems like the Eccentric Ditto carrying the Choice Scarf would indeed make for:
(a) a great revenge killer
(b) an even better punisher of Calm Mind, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, etc abuse

However, as has been pointed out in the thread, there are numerous ways to check this thing so I don't think it would necessarily be broken-broken.

Spoiler: show
In ubers, Ditto's natural enemy is Wobbuffet. Just as the Ditto player sacrificed one of his Pokémon to allow Ditto the safe switch-in, so too should the Wobbuffet player switch out to their weakest or least-crucial creature, have it die, and then simply send in Wobbuffet. Shadow Tag denies Ditto escape while Ditto's very own Choice Scarf has locked it in to a move the Wobbuffet owner knows with 100% certainty.

In OU and UU, there are many ways to deal with Eccentric Ditto carrying a Choice Scarf. One way is to use a powerful priority move (e.g. ExtremeSpeed) in combination with a Choice Band. While Ditto may hit first, you will hit harder. And where Ditto is likely to only 3HKO you with ExtremeSpeed (assuming no stat buffs!!), you are more likely to 2HKO it (assuming Ditto has transformed into a fragile sweeper with 0/0/0 investment in the defensive stats).

Another way to deal with Ditto in OU and UU is to either scare it away or else to trap it with somebody who knows a trapping move/ability and has immunity to the move Ditto is spamming. For instance, if Choice Scarf Ditto opted for Thunderbolt, in comes UU's Dugtrio for the easy kill. If he opted for Shadow Ball, in comes Umbreon who will most likely scare the Ditto away but then at least nab a free move (Wish? Mean Look if you know the team has no more fighting STAB?) on whatever switches in. And how about some OU regulars? Well suppose Ditto clones Lucario. And suppose you know (at the probable cost of a creature) or you suspect (at no cost to any creature, chalked up to pure strategic prediction-making) that he's locked into Close Combat? Wouldn't the smart thing to do be to switch in your Gengar, let the move pass right through you, force your opponent to switch out, and nail on whatever switches in? In the case where you made the prediction sans sacrifice, Ditto ended up doing absolutely nothing to you -- and you took advantage by whittling one of your opponent's other six Pokémon down considerably. (Hooray, base 130 SpAtt!)

There aren't always easy answers to this Eccentric Ditto, of course. For instance, it's never nice to have your Salamence out, stat buffs or no stat buffs, only to see Ditto come in and get free damage off of the switch (assuming he plays it safe and Outrages and you play it safe by retreating). Nor is it particularly good to have your own Gyarados intimidated by Ditto-Gyarados and to then watch as your Gyarados or the thing you switched in eats a Stone Edge or a Waterfall, respectively. But if Pokemon were a game of sure wins and sure losses, it wouldn't be much fun. And there are loads of other ways to deal with a Choice Scarfed Ditto:
  • take advantage of powerful moves which get even more powerful by going second. Payback (50/100) and Avalanche (60/120) are good examples of moves which Choice Scarf Ditto can't hurt you with (50, 60) and which you will always be able to hurt him with (100, 120 provided he actually hits you). Even if he runs away and your moves' powers are diminished, you still forced the switch, took minimal (in fact, zero!) damage, and did a little something to the incoming threat. Hard to complain.
  • don't use stat buffs anymore. Yeah, this can suck for you if your favorite playstyle is creating uber-sweepers with Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, but it's not a very big sacrifice you'll have to make and it pretty much ensures that your opponent won't be uber-sweeping you either
  • run a defensive core and take advantage of entry hazards. If you run three Pokémon who are each one of the others' antagonist, you can force Ditto into playing the Switching Game and accrue damage via entry hazards.
  • outsmart the opponent by encouraging Ditto to make use of status-inflicting moves to which you're already holding the curative berry. For instance, run a sleeper with Chesto Berry. Ditto will only all too greedily attempt to put you to sleep and then plan to switch out anyway: but what he doesn't know is that you're going to wake up immediately and put him to sleep!
  • make use of Pokémon whose prowess is in large part thanks to their respective non-Choice Scarf held items. For example, Flame Orb Swellow is more impressive than Choice Scarf Swellow. Toxic Orb Breloom is a beast whereas Choice Scarf Breloom is ineffective. Shed Shell Skarmory doesn't have to worry about Magnezone but Choice Scarf Skarmory does. (Lol, Choice Scarf Skarmory.) Take advantage of the fact that Ditto can't clone your held item and use it against him.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 01:43 PM   #22
Loki
Yummy
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,071
Actually, Payback will double in power if the opponent switched since it counts as the user going second (switching has priority), so the first use of Payback will hurt, but the following ones will be weaker. I doubt this was changed in B/W, but who knows.

I think a better counter for Ditto is the use of a Substitute using sweeper. If you send in Gengar and open with a Substitute while your opponent sends in Ditto, because you have a little wall to take the incoming attack and you assuming you can have your Gengar kill yourself, it's a simple kill. Granted, upon seeing a Substitute, Ditto will likely switch out anyway, you did in fact get a free shot off and in a no better or worse situation than previously.
__________________
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 11:18 PM   #23
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor Jesus View Post
Actually, Payback will double in power if the opponent switched since it counts as the user going second (switching has priority), so the first use of Payback will hurt, but the following ones will be weaker. I doubt this was changed in B/W, but who knows.

I think a better counter for Ditto is the use of a Substitute using sweeper. If you send in Gengar and open with a Substitute while your opponent sends in Ditto, because you have a little wall to take the incoming attack and you assuming you can have your Gengar kill yourself, it's a simple kill. Granted, upon seeing a Substitute, Ditto will likely switch out anyway, you did in fact get a free shot off and in a no better or worse situation than previously.
It's confirmed that Payback doesn't double off switches in B/W.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 11:21 PM   #24
Loki
Yummy
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,071
Aww.

Citation?
__________________
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2011, 01:37 PM   #25
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,840
Quote:
Confirmed: Payback no longer deals double damage if the target is switching out, but still deals double damage so long as the target moves first, even if it isn't attacking. (Team Rocket Elite, Setsuna, The_Chaser)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79340


Another interesting fact- Ditto's Eccentric ability does not activate against Zoruark.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:13 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.