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Old 04-28-2015, 12:17 AM   #26
Talon87
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Completed Case 4 -- and with that, the entirety of Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney! It was a fun ride. I've said it once, I'll say again: I think this game is undeserving of the bad rap it gets. Yes, it has its fair share of flaws or disappointments. Yes, some of the disappointments are especially large. But the game does so much right too that I just can't help but to rate it highly.

In the past, I've been known to opine that the fourth case of this game is the best case of all. (Or the best case of all at the time when the Miles Edgeworth games were the newest games out. Can't speak for Versus or AA5 yet. Sorry!) But how do I feel now, in 2015, having just replayed both Games 3 and 4? Honestly, it's complex. In short, and keeping the comparisons to just AA3 Case 5 and AA4 Case 4, I feel like AA4 Case 4 is the better first-time experience but that AA3 Case 5 holds up better on the replay. A lot of AA4 Case 4's magic is in the mind blowings. Oh, the oh-so-many mind blowing plot twists! So, so many. And so, so good! But once you know them, you know them. And you never forget them -- not even with all that I have managed to forget! -- because they're just too memorable to be forgotten. This means that all AA4 Case 4 has left for it are the non-surprises. How good the story holds up on repeat viewings, how fun the gameplay is, how exciting the climactic finish is, etc. And in all of these respects, I think I gotta hand it to AA3 Case 5.

Granted, this is like being asked to choose which of one's children is their favorite. Why can't I just say that I love them all? Whether AA4 Case 4 beats AA3 Case 5 or even any of the other AA cases or not doesn't matter: what matters is whether it's a good case in its own right or not. And yes: it's a good case.

Apollo Justice is surprisingly shorter than I remembered it being. Granted, it only has four cases compared with its predecessor's five, but still. My final time was 22 hours and 21 minutes. If it's a question of getting your money's worth, well yes, you still do. (If we equate each case with a film, and at roughly $4 for the Case 1 movie ticket and then $6 for each of the other three cases' movie tickets, I'd say you're getting your cinema equivalent's money's worth. Spun another way, you're paying roughly $1 per hour of entertainment which is a highly favorable exchange compared with cinemas' approximate $5 per hour of entertainment.) Still, there's no denying that ~20 hours is kind of on the smaller side of things, especially with visual novels. (For comparison, a single path in the admittedly-lengthy Fate/stay night takes roughly 24 hours to complete, the entire game roughly 72.)

Alright. Spoiler discussion time. And this time it'll all go in one box since, lol, it should go without saying that anything I have to say at this point constitutes end-of-game spoilers.

Spoiler: show
So it turns out that the reason I couldn't remember how Case 2 tied in to Case 4 as well as the reason I couldn't deduce from scratch how it might possibly tie in ... was because it pretty much doesn't tie in whatsoever. ^^;; Whoopsie. And here I was so certain that the four rooms we'd get to re-examine would be, in order, the Borscht Bowl Club's poker room (close but wrong), no idea but somewhere from Case 2 (wrong), Lamiroir's dressing room (close but wrong), and Drew Misham's office (the only one I got right! T_T).

It also turns out that I misremembered something -- we don't have four case files to scrutinize in the Jurist portion of the case! We have eight! Four on the left that represent the past, and then the four remembered ones on the right that represent the present. Whoopsie again! ¬_¬;

Furthermore, it looks like I forgot all about the fact that Case 4 ... does a really weird but really fascinating thing where Phoenix Wright breaks the laws of physics and applies evidence gained in the future to witness interviews conducted in the past. "Here, Vera. I found out that Kristoph has nail polish just like yours when visiting his jail cell seven years in the future. Let me ask you about it now!" Or how about this one: "Hey, Valant. Care to tell me about Magnifi's death? No? What's that? You want an assurance that someone else will take the blame for Magnifi's death? Okay then! Let me just mosey on back to six months ago and ask Zak for it! Hey, Zak! Yeah, you, Zak! I know you already died playing poker with me, but let's pretend that that hasn't happened yet, dial back the clock, and have you give me a letter of writ exonerating Valant, eh, whaddya say? Yeah? Cool. " Granted, this is all (thankfully! T_T :'D) explained away by implying that most of this sleuthing:
  1. was really being done by the jurist in the present and that the interviews, while seemingly real, weren't real real; or better yet
  2. was really being done in chronological order by Phoenix; and that despite the order in which the discoveries were presented to the player, the order in which Phoenix privately made the discoveries violated no such laws of physics. (Example: he discovered Kristoph sent Vera the nail polish back in the past, not in the present the way we did.)
But still, it's kind of a weird little thing, something seen in none of the other Ace Attorney games. I thought it was fun, but I think I ultimately am happier with more chronologically contained affairs.

Forgot that Apollo and Trucy are only half-siblings. Whoops. Coulda sworn they were full brother and sister -- or more to the point, coulda sworn that Zak was Thalassa's first and only. Had absolutely z-e-r-o memory of her having had a relationship with another man first. But that's cool in several ways. First off, it makes better sense out of the fact that Apollo doesn't really seem to have any features inherited from Zak. (Then again neither does Trucy, who looks very much like her mother's daughter.) Second, it conveniently explains away that Apollo doesn't have to deal with the existential crisis of "OMG MUH DAD I NEVER KNEW WAS THE MURDER VICTIM IN MUH FIRST CASE AND WAS KILLED BY MY EX-BOSS NO LESS!" in the middle of trying to exonerate Vera Misham. In real life, that's the sort of distraction that would cripple most attorneys. So it's good that Apollo doesn't have to deal with that, and/or that his lack of emotional duress isn't a gaping plot hole.

Kristoph Gavin's line here is so poignant for me ever since Hiimdaisy drew attention to it in her comic seen here. ^^;

Was really surprised by just how short the Kristoph-Gavin-takes-the-stand portion of the case is. I thought for sure it'd be an hour-long, Kristoph-gives-at-least-three-different-testimonies ordeal. Kinda similar to Dahlia or Maya on the stand in AA3 Case 5. But nope! Whether he gives two or three, Kristoph's over and done with in very little time.

Not sure if subconscious memory, conscious cleverness, or pure luck, but I found Kristoph's physical tell on my first try. Well, I should say that I chose Screen 5 first, had the cursor pointed straight at his eyes, and then noticed something moving near the hand region when the words got to the very end. Let it repeat, this time with the cursor on his hand, and whammo -- SUDDENLY SILENT HILL IN MY APOLLO JUSTICE.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Some random final comments / things to share before we wrap this up ...

This is a good time to link to Hiimdaisy's entire "Zak Gramarye is a Jerk" comic strip series. If you haven't seen it before now -- which sure is my hope for first-timers since man is it spoileriffic! ^^; -- then now is definitely the time to check it out! You'll find much to love, I guarantee it.

Uncle Valant provided a really awesome quote when Phoenix interrogates him at the Detention Center: "Glory's spotlight always leaves someone weeping in the shadows." I really loved that line. I mean, it's sad and pessimistic, but it just sounds so wise and concise. Really love the word choice that went into it.

Another Uncle Valant line, this time the opposite end of the praise spectrum ... ^^; The localization team, God bless their hearts, had a hell of a time trying to localize a lot of the Japanese-isms in this game. Most of them will be subtle to English speakers who speak little to no Japanese. But one seemingly innocuous one that blossomed into a full-fledged terror for the team was Trucy's use of -- what I can only assume was originally -- お父さん Otou-san / 父さん Tou-san / 父ちゃん Tou-chan. She uses the term(s) when describing Phoenix and Zak, and in both cases the team opted to go with the English near-equivalent of "Daddy." Well, at a later point in the game -- Case 4, to be precise -- Trucy is talking to Valant and the topic of Zak Gramarye comes up. I can guarantee you, $20 easy money, that the original dialogue had to have been お父様 Otou-sama -- and the reason I can do this is because of the localization team's ridiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiculously rigid and literal translation of "Lord Daddy" in the English language version. Here's a blurry picture I took for your own reference.

One thing I don't recall from the first time I played but that did leave an impression on me this time was the fact that the Gramaryes' calling card ... err, their logo, I guess you'd call it, is the Japanese character 或 that has then had a magician's hat and mustache drawn in to make it look like Zak. It looks really stylish, and it makes me wonder if the character is at all a name-based pun off of the Gramaryes' original name in Japanese. (Real time going to look it up.) Well, looks like it sure does! His name was originally 或真敷ザック Arumajiki Zakku or, in English word order, Zak Arumajiki. The "arumajiki" is a bit of a play-on-words where 真敷 majiki is spelled differently but produces sounds which sound similar to the English word "magic," and then 或 aru simply means "to have" as in to possess, so "he who has magic" poetically or "have-magic" more literally. (And for the hyper literal, while 敷 can carry various meanings I guess that here I'd go for 或真敷 being "having true spread/coverage," whatever that's meant to mean.)

And with that, I declare myself now ready to take on Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright.

Last edited by Talon87; 04-28-2015 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:05 PM   #27
takkupanda
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Just started playing this game for the first time. Things look exciting right from the get-go!

Spoiler: show
Piano player? That doesn't sound Wright! ;)

Will keep posted as I go along.

EDIT: Completed first case

Spoiler: show
I agree with most of what Talon said. The only other thing I felt was that the end of the case was quite hurried. Phoenix making up theories based on pure imagination, and evidence just popping up as required. It was quite atypical of the games so far, but that's probably how it was intended to be, since this was a tutorial case and they wanted to drop some quick bombs to build up a story for the game to follow. Not saying it was short by any means. It felt long enough, but all the effort led to an end which really made me question Apollo's contribution to the case.

But I still love all the new mysteries that have been set up and it's looking good so far.

EDIT2: Started second case

Spoiler: show
I noticed Trucy calling Apollo by the nickname Polly, which I find strange, because Polly was the bird in the first game and was a fairly important character in that story.

Also, Ema Skye! Am I glad to see her again?!
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:57 PM   #28
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On Case 4 day 2 trial now and ...

Spoiler: show
... I cannot stand Spark Brushel! Oh he's so annoying overall, I knew I'd hate him right from the moment I saw him. How long does he take to get to the point? I have had it with him after spending an hour trying to find his goddamn annoying to perceive twitch. I had to look at his face up close in detail several times trying to find the twitch. Disgusting!

He is, without a doubt, my most hated Ace Attorney character so far. Wesley Stickler comes second. I cannot look at that panty-thief for too long without feeling utterly creeped out. Ugh.


Other notes from Case 2:

Spoiler: show
Yay! Stepladders! Except that the argument roles are reversed, but I'm glad that the gag is still on

Dr. Hotti is back! With only a minor role so far, but just as perverted.

Wocky is wearing a blue badger shirt. Does that make him innocent? Also, I'm glad to see the blue badger again!

I really like Guy Eldoon's serious doctor character. It's amazing how well he transforms and how he really does look like a surgeon once the noodle bowl comes off his head. Great character design.

Notes from case 3:

Spoiler: show
Stepladders again! And it's actually relevant to the plot too!

Also, I love this case with the mixing, and the music is great! The Guitar's Serenade minus the vocals part of Lamiroir actually sounds quite awesome! The piano part is great too, even with the 'one hand' part, it still sounds amazing.

Lamiroir is a wonderful character and Machi seemed really nice too till the very end. Among other characters, I find Valant a great character too, what with his charisma and constantly pointing his staff towards the screen. He makes me smile every time I see him

I also like Klavier Gavin so far. He's in it for the truth and that's great to see. Love the guitar playing cool prosecutor side of him too. I agree that as a character he is somewhat weak, but I still think he is cool and great. Plus Herr Forehead is so much better than Trite! I vote that as the best nickname in the series!

General notes about the game:

Spoiler: show
I don't like the Perceive function in the game (yet, it might change by the end, but it's unlikely). What's even more annoying is that, unlike the Psyche lock which allowed Phoenix to see that someone was hiding something and use just that fact to break the victim by a logical sequence of questioning and evidence presenting, Apollo just points out a twitch, which makes this game look more like 'Lie To Me'. There is also no connection to when the bracelet is used. The twitches are random and only seem to pop up when there's no evidence, which makes it look kind of made-up. Also, he doesn't use the twitch like Phoenix logically used psyche locks, which were a lot more subtle. He simply points it out and gets the truth he needs to proceed in the game, which means that not much thinking is required to use it. I do not like this mechanic added and would love to have something like Psyche-locks back.

Notes about case 4 so far:

Spoiler: show
This case seems really interesting. A lot is happening. Every time they said 'seven years' in the game is probably linked to this case. Looks exciting. Drew's sketches are quite mysterious too, as is Vera.

Also, I saw someone who looked like Shadi Smith in the Gramarye's advertisement at the beginning of the case. He's the guy on the right, with Valant on the left and an unknown woman in the middle. What's with that?
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Last edited by takkupanda; 06-21-2015 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:05 PM   #29
Talon87
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Hey, cool! I saw your first post before there were any edits made to it. Didn't think replying at that time would be too necessary. But hey, wow, you've gone and played so much of the game while I've been gone! :o

Glad you're enjoying it. Neat & fun to see how much we agree on things good and bad.

As for Case 4, PREPARE TO BE AMAZED!
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Old 06-22-2015, 07:33 PM   #30
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Completed Case 4. I was surprised at how this case did not take too long for me to complete, even though a lot happens in it and there is a lot of story going on.

In general, I found this game an amazing self-contained add-on to the Phoenix Wright series.

Comments about case 4 and the game in general:

Spoiler: show
I've enjoyed everything Ema Skye brings to the game! And this includes her cute grumpiness and her Snackooing Apollo. "*ka-tonk* (She Snackoo'd me)" It comes very close in cuteness to having Gumshoe as an investigating partner in AA3 case 5.

I absolutely loved Klavier Gavin's character throughout the game! How he goes from being a young inexperienced prosecutor who simply follows in on his elder brother's plan, to a truth seeking honest cool-headed prosecutor who sees right through his brother's plan. Plus his references - "Achtung, baby!", "Why not wait for him to knock-knock-knock on heaven's door" and possibly other references that I missed. I also love the sibling thing going on between him and Kristoph. When Kristoph says Klavier's going out of control and Klavier says perhaps he must be going out of Kristoph's control - a dominant elder sibling trying to control his younger sibling which is how he succeeds in his initial plan in the first place. I just thought his character was very well thought out and developed throughout the game. Herr Forehead still makes me smile every single time he says it.

The bailiff who let Zak vanish so easily had to be Meekins! I found that really funny how his character always finds himself at the worst possible places and I do feel sympathy for him. I think he's very cutely designed.

Gumshoe is back in the 4th case along with the music! Only for a short while though, but still, it's awesome to see him!

The magatama is back! Investigating through the MASON system was so much fun, especially with the magatama handy! Though I would have loved to try and break Kristoph's special psyche-locks.

Trucy was fantastic throughout the game, and young Trucy was oh so cute! Her optimism is so powerful, I could feel it in me too! When Phoenix has lost everything and is left only with Trucy, what she provides him is so priceless! Optimism, motivation, hope and energy! She is a beautifully developed character as well.

I do feel considerably less annoyed by Brushel knowing his true role in the story. He was a valuable witness and ally throughout the investigation, unlike the pain-in-the-ass reporter he seemed to be at first.


Some replies to Talon's comments about the games:

Spoiler: show
The 'Zak Gramarye is a jerk' comics - these are outstanding! I never looked at Zak as the bad guy, but looking at these, I do think he was a jerk. He was the reason everything fell out of place in the first place.

Regarding Lamiroir's broach - I did misidentify it first as being Trucy's broach right when I found it while investigating. I had no idea that Lamiroir would be related so closely to the game then.

Regarding presenting the Transferral of Rights to Valant - I first thought he would tear it away too, but then I realized that there was a reporter/notary witness who signed it and there would be potentially problematic ramifications for Valant if he did tear it, which is what gave me the courage to present it :P


Some questions that I did not get answers for:

Spoiler: show
Why was Drew sketching Apollo's cases? And why were they the rough sketches that forged paintings were made over? The only link I can think of is Kristoph, but that still doesn't explain why Drew would make the sketches he made. At first I thought he was predicting, or even planning, Apollo's life and cases and that his whole life was a set up - that would have been quite something.

Zak chooses Phoenix over Kristoph. This causes Kristoph to seek revenge by spending $100,000 and murdering two people, while helping pronounce an innocent Zak to death, and letting a possibly guilty Valant free! Agreed, what was at stake was great fame, given how popular the Gramaryes were, but that still is a stretch for someone who is a cool-headed defense attorney. And even after doing that, he would never get the fame that he missed out on because of that poker game.

And having looked at the Zak is a jerk comic series, I really wonder what the hell Zak was doing in the first case. He was planning on calling Phoenix, his daughter's guardian, a fraudster - possibly making him lose his job because of Zak, again. But that doesn't work out, thankfully, due to him luckily finding out the 5 of hearts in his pocket. So Zak instead attacks Olga Orly! He never seemed the short-tempered aggressive kind - maybe the 7 years spent in hiding did this to him?! Looking back at the game, the first case just seems really out of place.
Oh, and by the way, Kristoph already gets his guilty for a murder verdict here. So the only reason to play the last case was to test the Jurist system and to prove a most likely already dead Vera innocent - innocent for murder of her father, but still guilty of forgery. Seeing as how Phoenix Wright was planning on doing this for the last SEVEN YEARS, this seems like an odd case. However, it does complete the game and puts all things together very well, though it somehow lacks a certain oomph. (Unlike AA3 Case 5 which brings everything from the first 3 games together and also has that ultimate punch which hits home and closes the case and the game. It somehow feels more complete, and I like completeness. But that was over 3 games and this game's addition is fairly self-contained and does not affect the completeness of the canon story too much, so I am happy with this game overall .)

EDIT:

Spoiler: show
Of course I forgot what the last case did do was that it proved Phoenix's innocence all along, which should hopefully allow him to regain his badge, which is likely the case because he is back in his suit and primary role in Dual Destinies. This was actually an important point of view that I missed, and now it makes a lot more sense.
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Old 09-12-2016, 01:17 PM   #31
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Dead thread revived! After buying the Trilogy set, I have been binging on Ace Attorney for the past month. After finishing said Trilogy, my thirst wasn't quenched yet, so I bought this.

Overall, I have enjoyed all of the Ace Attorney games. The first game's cases were probably the most down-to-earth, meaning you can follow the clues much more realistically, and giving you a sense of discovery. The next two games were a bit too over-the-top, meaning you kept grasping at straws in order to try to explain everything at the last minute, which kills the sense of discovery for me. I thought the story in game 3 was excellent though, and it tied everything in very nicely. Apollo Justice seemed to combine the positives of the first game and the third game. It was down-to-earth enough for you to follow, and often think ahead of the main character. While I didn't enjoy the story as much as Trials and Tribulations, it was still very enjoyable.

For specific things: (minor plot spoilers)
Spoiler: show
I am kind of split on what happened to Phoenix. I like his personality. He goes along with the dumb stuff everyone else says like he's used to it. He's also more laid-back, which is nice. I'm afraid of him reverting to Mr. Tsukkomi in Dual Destinies. He looks so serious. For the 7 year fuck-over, that sucks. I kind of expected some kind of "YOU'RE NO LONGER FIT TO BE A LAWYER!" drama, but not for 7 freaking years. It's nice that he seems to have some contact with his friends from the previous games...I think. The way he worded the DVDs seems to suggest it. Someone "keeps sending" him the kid's show DVDs.

It's nice to see Ema back. I was actually kind of afraid that case 5 game 1 "didn't happen". It was almost never mentioned, so I thought it was just an alternate reality omake type thing. Age wasn't kind to her. She went from scientifically perky and energetic to scientifically irritable. Now she'll never work as a Maya substitute again!

The "gameplay" elements like the forensics stuff, and the perception by themselves aren't that great, but I like to think they add some personality to the game. I like the fact that you can't do forensics stuff without Ema. It's like that's her thing. Same with the perception. It feels like it's Apollo's thing. Sure, by itself perception is pretty dumb, since "feelings" aren't evidence.

One running joke I liked more than I should is the one about how magicians exit doors. Every time one of them would leave the scene, Apollo would comment on how he left the scene in an exaggerated manner, only to say they left normally. Then finally Phoenix talks to Apollo and leaves, then Apollo goes "He left just like a magician! Completely normally!". Not sure why I liked that gag so much, but I did.

I miss the profile presenting feature though. In Justice for All, I abused the feature just so I could get people to talk shit about Francisca. Having characters talk about others gave you a nice point of view on their relations as well.


As for which game I like best, I don't know. Trials and Tribulations had two games before it to back it, and the characters up. Because of that, I felt much more attached to the story, and had more feels from it. Apollo Justice felt like a better game to "play", and the story wasn't that much below the previous game.

Last edited by big bad birtha; 09-12-2016 at 02:49 PM.
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