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Old 03-26-2020, 05:35 AM   #5551
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That got me curious about the upcoming VRAINS replacement and oh my,



That looks pretty terrible, in the ZeXal mold.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:12 AM   #5552
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Konami might release a banlist while there are no official events going on because Jet Synchro and Block Dragon are incredibly broken. Maybe they might hit Halqifibrax or Auroradon instead, but I'm not convinced.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:23 PM   #5553
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Uh, you don't mean Jet Synchron? Block Dragon doesn't look very good, I don't see what's threatening about it.

Also, there's no way they'll hit Needlefiber, not after waiting so long to release it.
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Old 05-16-2020, 08:43 PM   #5554
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BORKED
BORKED

Block Dragon is a Dragon Ruler which floats harder (into multiple cards) and has a non-OPT summoning condition. It's literally insane. Like even in more generic decks Block Dragon floats into double Gigantes
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Old 05-16-2020, 09:18 PM   #5555
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I've never seen the monster Link Cross before. It must be a new release, and that card itself is obviously quite broken as I can easily see a Junk Speeder play using that same setup. Hitting that and Needlefiber would nip this in the bud.

Hitting Jet Synchron is a scapegoat hit. It wouldn't affect me at this point since I'm not using it anymore (often), but it would be annoying to see yet another one of my few deck relevant cards hit.
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Old 05-17-2020, 05:21 PM   #5556
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Jet Synchron is the scapegoat hit, but it's also not the card moving any product.
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Old 05-17-2020, 06:47 PM   #5557
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After the ban to Firewall Dragon, I don't believe in any of the pseudo-economic arguments against banning specific cards.

I know that KOA was well aware of Needlefiber's potential and held off releasing it until after the Link era was over. Unless it's a Secret Rare or something, I don't think it represents that much of a product push, especially since Synchrons seem to get some kind of support in every major YGO release.
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Old 05-17-2020, 07:17 PM   #5558
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Firewall was banned after numerous scapegoat hits, including ones that hurt decks that were barely viable (ABC). It also came after mass outcry from players, for whatever that is worth.

Needlefiber and Linkross are very new cards (Duel Overload and the currently EU only Eternity Code) and we're currently in the middle of a pandemic where Konami's product sales are lower than normal, it's not that odd to think they might hit Jet Synchron because of it.

(Jet Synchron being a one-card Needlefiber is also part of the reason this combo exists.)
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Old 05-18-2020, 06:12 PM   #5559
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nothing to contribute really, just reminding you that whenever someone says the words Dragon Ruler I am (special) summoned to this thread
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Old 07-24-2020, 02:33 AM   #5560
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It really is interesting...and really cringe-worthy to go back and read my old posts in this thread from 2013 to early 2014. I don't think I realized until now just how far as a player (and god *holds face in hands* as a person) I've come in the last seven years or so since I started playing Yu-Gi-Oh. I'm not sure when I got out of that scrub phase...probably around the time Shaddolls were released but at the very minimum by the time Nekroz was out. One of my very early posts was asking Dopple whether experience is what made him so good at the game and...yeah, yeah that was it.

I think the one thing I really missed was the community this game had back in 2013-2014. I have friends now who play Yu-Gi-Oh and there still are a couple of UPNers who I talk to about it but I really do miss the old days in that regard. I'm not sure if those days will really come back either...the game is so different now it must be a bit of shellshock for people. I've been thinking about maybe doing a rental deck tournament to help people get into things, but I'm not sure that would help.

The glory days of YGO on UPN might be over, but I'll still be playing regardless.
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Old 07-25-2020, 10:52 AM   #5561
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I don't think "shellshock" is something you really need to worry about too much. Back when this thread was first started everyone was like "my oh my clutch the pearls what are these SYNCHRO and XYZ summon things???" but then everyone kind of got used to them. I haven't played in forever so I haven't really kept up with how stuff works too much but I know I'd be in for a revival of sorts
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Old 07-25-2020, 06:06 PM   #5562
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It really is interesting...and really cringe-worthy to go back and read my old posts in this thread from 2013 to early 2014. I don't think I realized until now just how far as a player (and god *holds face in hands* as a person) I've come in the last seven years or so since I started playing Yu-Gi-Oh. I'm not sure when I got out of that scrub phase...probably around the time Shaddolls were released but at the very minimum by the time Nekroz was out. One of my very early posts was asking Dopple whether experience is what made him so good at the game and...yeah, yeah that was it.
Like in Pokemon where team building seems to be the 'real skill', deck building in a way that beats meta decks gives you an understanding of how the game works, what is broken and how they are broken. For you this was about 2015, at or around the last UPN tournament.

The unfortunate truth is that I started to lose interest in YGO when my deck's core components could simply not keep up anymore. The Link era invalidated 99% of old decks save the power decks from the end of the Pendulum era.

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I think the one thing I really missed was the community this game had back in 2013-2014. I have friends now who play Yu-Gi-Oh and there still are a couple of UPNers who I talk to about it but I really do miss the old days in that regard. I'm not sure if those days will really come back either...the game is so different now it must be a bit of shellshock for people. I've been thinking about maybe doing a rental deck tournament to help people get into things, but I'm not sure that would help.

The glory days of YGO on UPN might be over, but I'll still be playing regardless.
I think the death of DN was what really did it. I lost friends from other websites like BVS who I played on DN, but lost contact when DN and AIM died.
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Old 07-25-2020, 06:49 PM   #5563
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Like in Pokemon where team building seems to be the 'real skill', deck building in a way that beats meta decks gives you an understanding of how the game works, what is broken and how they are broken. For you this was about 2015, at or around the last UPN tournament.
Mmm, I'd agree with that. Something that I've been steadily trying to work on is side decking too, but this is probably because playing the physical card game is definitely something I'm more interested in doing since the game was doing quite well before Crush Covid Virus.

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The unfortunate truth is that I started to lose interest in YGO when my deck's core components could simply not keep up anymore. The Link era invalidated 99% of old decks save the power decks from the end of the Pendulum era.
The good thing now at least is there they did away with the worst parts of Link era without doing away with what actually was good for the game (Pendulum changes, unless you're a Dinomist or Qliphort player I suppose). But the game has also progressed pretty heavily since full-power Zoo format.

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I think the death of DN was what really did it. I lost friends from other websites like BVS who I played on DN, but lost contact when DN and AIM died.
Yeah for sure. YGOPro (now called EDOPro for some reason) is a perfectly fine simulator, but you lose a lot of the feel that manual simulators do. Fortunately now there's Duelingbook, which is by and large Dueling Network, although it never feels as particularly stable.
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Old 07-25-2020, 07:02 PM   #5564
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I don't agree that they removed the worst part of Links - the issue with Links wasn't their summoning or even their flexibility, but every archetype had generic requirements and a negator-style boss, so Links were able to make big boards of stupid strong negation that required even more cancerous vomit to break.

Then you have decks like World Chalice which have a billion floating effects that activate whenever something happens, not even requiring the extra deck because the main deck monsters have so many more effects you needed a negator to stop them.

In earlier gimmicks, like Synchro and XYZ, Konami had the restraint to limit negators to non-generic requirements, limit the number of them in game, and not print small Bibles on each card so cards would have tons of plusses and quick effects. I don't even know what the gimmick of Sevens is supposed to be, but I highly doubt this lack of restraint is going away, so whatever gimmick will be broken not by the gimmick's mechanics but the payoff cards those gimmicks give birth to.
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Old 07-26-2020, 06:11 AM   #5565
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I don't agree that they removed the worst part of Links - the issue with Links wasn't their summoning or even their flexibility, but every archetype had generic requirements and a negator-style boss, so Links were able to make big boards of stupid strong negation that required even more cancerous vomit to break.
I wouldn't really say that this is entirely correct either though. I think you can definitely point to cards like Tri-Gate Wizard and say it shouldn't have been generic, but Tri-Gate Wizard also had additional conditions to fulfill to get to its negation (it needed to be co-linked three times) that meant it wasn't usable in every deck. Probably the only really big offender of the Link era is Apollousa, but Apollousa also only negates monster effects and isn't always consistently strong.

I think, in a way, its easy to let decks like SPYRAL or Gouki color our perceptions of what Link format was like because they're standout examples of the big combo boards and indicative of the overall casual viewpoint of the era, similar in a way to how people look at Performage Performapals as being representative of Pendulum era, but there were also plenty of decks that were competitive not because they made the big boards but because they had resiliency or good match-ups otherwise. Altergeist, Zoodiacs, True Draco, Orcust, Salamangreat, Sky Striker, early Thunder Dragon, Shaddoll Invoked, Burning Abyss, Madolche, Dragonmaid, Mekk-Knight Invoked...the list kind of goes on.

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Then you have decks like World Chalice which have a billion floating effects that activate whenever something happens, not even requiring the extra deck because the main deck monsters have so many more effects you needed a negator to stop them.
I mean World Chalice did require their extra decks, they were a bunch of vanillas that accessed pretty much all of their power from the extra deck. Yeah, World Chalice had access to pretty scary boards for maybe...a format or two, but the deck was also incredibly inconsistent. Speaking from experience here having tried to play the deck, you'd be surprised how many hands don't end up being remotely usuable, especially if your opponent even has a stray Ash Blossom or Ghost Ogre.

Salamangreat or Orcust are probably more notable in this regard, but they also didn't really make the big boards World Chalice did and really had their strength in the inevitability they put on the board. It wasn't actually too hard to deal with a Salamangreat board of Sunlight Wolf and some backrow, the problem was dealing with that board and also your Jack Jaguars, the Gazelle in your opponent's hand, the Spinny, a future Sunlight Wolf recurring a roar. In Orcusts there was Harp Horror, Cymbal Skeleton, Knightmare, Dingirsu etc that you would have to push through turn after turn. They're snigificantly less flashy than Trigate and double Firewall though.

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In earlier gimmicks, like Synchro and XYZ, Konami had the restraint to limit negators to non-generic requirements, limit the number of them in game, and not print small Bibles on each card so cards would have tons of plusses and quick effects. I don't even know what the gimmick of Sevens is supposed to be, but I highly doubt this lack of restraint is going away, so whatever gimmick will be broken not by the gimmick's mechanics but the payoff cards those gimmicks give birth to.
I think this is kind of ironic because yeah, I think you can point to maybe Salamangreat Roar and Orcust Crescendo as problem cards, but most of the cards being used in these big negate boards were...Xyz and Synchro monsters. Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon, Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss, Abyss Dweller, Herald of the Arc Light, Zombiestein, Norito, Odd-Eyes Vortex Dragon, Hope Harbinger, Mist Valley Apex Avian (just a kind of old-ass card), Invoked Mechaba etc. I'm ignoring cards like Borreload Savage Dragon, Bagooska, and True King of All Calamities due to just how new the cards are (even Invoked Mechaba is pushing it), but what we often saw as a pattern was that decks were coming along and breaking older cards, many of whom often didn't have a home before this.

I don't mean really to say that the last 3 or so years of Yu-Gi-Oh have been totally good for the game: stuff like Dangers probably shouldn't have been printed and the current format is a little inducing at times, but this is true for much of Yu-Gi-Oh's history. I'm not sure its right to point the fingers at the Salamangreat Roar, Orcust Crescendo, and Golden Land Forever! when Duelist Alliance made every Rank 4 deck not Satellarknights with its fancy "Everything does something when SS'd" and Stellarnova Alpha obselete. The continual popping up of Burning Abyss, even when Graff and Cir are still limited.

Actually looking back, Duelist Alliance was a super format warping set. Huh.

There's also a continual theme of "great decks get good support but also can't really come back because of the passage of time." Nekroz and Six Samurai are pretty good examples of that. Nekroz's consistency was super hard to deal with in 2015 but is more manageable now thanks to Ash Blossom and the fact people now realize Artifact Lancea is good. Gateway of the Six is still an incredibly good card, that power is still there, but you can Ghost Ogre it now and lose all of its counter and fizzle out its effects. What also didn't help these decks from returning was Master Rule 4 taking a billy club to any deck using these mechanics.

To kind of put this point into clarity, D/D/D was a deck that was hyped up once the Master Rule Revision changes were announced (I wasn't as sure as the primary weakness of D/D/D, that all of its combos require multiple specific cards still existed, but I digress). D/D/D is actually for the most part the exact same deck as it was in 2016 before the Zoo nation attacked. You're still ending on boards of Hope Harbinger, Crystal Wing, Siegfried like you were back then. Links didn't really help D/D/D much, even their own Link monster wasn't that strong. It was the removal of the weights that shackled every deck of its type.

Now...D/D/Ds ended up getting overshadowed by Adamancipator and Eldlich so...hmmm
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Old 07-26-2020, 08:22 AM   #5566
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oh yeah the sevens gimmick is an alternate format where you draw 5 cards and have infinite normal summons but none of the cards are remotely usable

Black Dragon's Chick is a standout card.
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Old 07-26-2020, 02:10 PM   #5567
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Probably the only really big offender of the Link era is Apollousa, but Apollousa also only negates monster effects and isn't always consistently strong.
Apollousa also existed in an era where trap cards are virtually extinct, save a trap card that can be activated from the hand and works to stun a sennet column and negate monster effects.

Even something like Blazar, which is undisputably still great for its strength and staying power, pales to something like Apollusa + ABCs + Cydra Infinity which are easier to spit out alongside other bosses and harder to break without both a situational hand + Extra Deck.

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I think, in a way, its easy to let decks like SPYRAL or Gouki color our perceptions of what Link format was like because they're standout examples of the big combo boards and indicative of the overall casual viewpoint of the era, similar in a way to how people look at Performage Performapals as being representative of Pendulum era, but there were also plenty of decks that were competitive not because they made the big boards but because they had resiliency or good match-ups otherwise. Altergeist, Zoodiacs, True Draco, Orcust, Salamangreat, Sky Striker, early Thunder Dragon, Shaddoll Invoked, Burning Abyss, Madolche, Dragonmaid, Mekk-Knight Invoked...the list kind of goes on.
I would argue Maid Dragon is more representative of power creep than anything. You get a float or removal effect whenever a Maid Dragon is summoned, which is consistently every turn and puts immense pressure on you to be faster and stronger to beat it.

And that's like... a tier 3 trash deck. It doesn't make big boards, it's closer in field presence to HERO Stun from a decade ago.

Mekk-Knights were the worst deck I played before the Colossus ban, able to muscle through 3 solemn judgments over the course of 3 turns. That's ridiculous. There are so many effects now you cannot stop turns at all with reactive traps and slow the onslaught.

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Salamangreat or Orcust are probably more notable in this regard, but they also didn't really make the big boards World Chalice did and really had their strength in the inevitability they put on the board. It wasn't actually too hard to deal with a Salamangreat board of Sunlight Wolf and some backrow, the problem was dealing with that board and also your Jack Jaguars, the Gazelle in your opponent's hand, the Spinny, a future Sunlight Wolf recurring a roar. In Orcusts there was Harp Horror, Cymbal Skeleton, Knightmare, Dingirsu etc that you would have to push through turn after turn. They're snigificantly less flashy than Trigate and double Firewall though.
I found those decks easier to handle. Being so common and so consistent makes counterplay easy to prepare beforehand. I remember during DUEA when the big annoyance was Evilswarm Ophion, and then new cards came out that made Ophion easy to deal with, yet facing Ophion again last December and I lost to it.

My old tech to beat that card was Mist Bird Clausolas, Vanity's Emptiness, Forbidden Lance, all cards I do not run in 2020. So I was vulnerable to it and Ophion has resistance to the most common removal available, kaijus.

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I think this is kind of ironic because yeah, I think you can point to maybe Salamangreat Roar and Orcust Crescendo as problem cards, but most of the cards being used in these big negate boards were...Xyz and Synchro monsters. Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon, Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss, Abyss Dweller, Herald of the Arc Light, Zombiestein, Norito, Odd-Eyes Vortex Dragon, Hope Harbinger, Mist Valley Apex Avian (just a kind of old-ass card), Invoked Mechaba etc. I'm ignoring cards like Borreload Savage Dragon, Bagooska, and True King of All Calamities due to just how new the cards are (even Invoked Mechaba is pushing it), but what we often saw as a pattern was that decks were coming along and breaking older cards, many of whom often didn't have a home before this.
This is arguably a good thing and more a quirk of circumstance, since those decks would make Links if they could, especially in the case of Borreload and Bagooska. Synchros and XYZs tend to be dead-ends on the summon chain and lack the protection and floating of newer cards that make them so cancerous. This also means there's old period tech available that can deal with them i.e. Super Poly, CED, and Dimensional Barrier.

I may have mentioned that when I was losing to D/D/D, I had little issue disrupting the deck with a well-timed Effect Veiler, since as an old deck it relied on long, uninterrupted combo chains and committed to the field with linear rigidity. D/D/D needed to run x3 Called to avoid being interrupted, and if they didn't draw it it was gg.

D/D/D was an example of a super roided out old deck, I used to wipe the floor with them before the Link era by being faster, dropping Dark Law and laying traps, but Links banned Level Eater and MR4 made it harder to do more than just Blazar + some solemn judgments.

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Actually looking back, Duelist Alliance was a super format warping set. Huh.
Yes it was.
Yes it was.

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There's also a continual theme of "great decks get good support but also can't really come back because of the passage of time." Nekroz and Six Samurai are pretty good examples of that. Nekroz's consistency was super hard to deal with in 2015 but is more manageable now thanks to Ash Blossom and the fact people now realize Artifact Lancea is good. Gateway of the Six is still an incredibly good card, that power is still there, but you can Ghost Ogre it now and lose all of its counter and fizzle out its effects. What also didn't help these decks from returning was Master Rule 4 taking a billy club to any deck using these mechanics.
They can run Called, but with x5 cards those old decks don't have the consistency or power to be able to run an anti-hand trap, traps and (by today's standards) weak stun monsters.

I played Nekroz when I was using Colossus and Kaijus and completely, utterly destroyed them. Nekroz and Six Sams, even during the time, were always trouble due to their anti-spell/trap an Normal Summon stun effects, but they were always vulnerable to monster effects that didn't start to become meta until the Pendulum era, starting with Ghost Ogre.

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To kind of put this point into clarity, D/D/D was a deck that was hyped up once the Master Rule Revision changes were announced (I wasn't as sure as the primary weakness of D/D/D, that all of its combos require multiple specific cards still existed, but I digress). D/D/D is actually for the most part the exact same deck as it was in 2016 before the Zoo nation attacked. You're still ending on boards of Hope Harbinger, Crystal Wing, Siegfried like you were back then. Links didn't really help D/D/D much, even their own Link monster wasn't that strong. It was the removal of the weights that shackled every deck of its type.

Now...D/D/Ds ended up getting overshadowed by Adamancipator and Eldlich so...hmmm
Yep. Though the key distinction here is D/D/D, being more efficient and having more moving parts than Nekroz/Sams could afford to run stuff like Called. D/D/D also didn't autolose to Thunder Dragon Colossus in the same way Sams and Nekroz did, since the introduction of Colossus lead to decks avoiding deck-to-hand searching and going back to the annoying summon-from-deck searching.

All we need is a Dark Fusion monster that blocks summons from the deck. It will happen someday, and only then will power creep finally start to slow somewhat, since the only out after that are monsters that summon from the banish zone.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:42 AM   #5568
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Apollousa also existed in an era where trap cards are virtually extinct, save a trap card that can be activated from the hand and works to stun a sennet column and negate monster effects.
This is both right and isn't at the same time. First, while it is true that generic use of traps has mostly gone by the wayside in recent years, there have always been decks that have used Trap cards effectively. Altergeists, Guru control and True Draco are the ones that most come to mind. (I'm trying to ignore Eldlich, it's a bit of a black sheep in that because it doesn't use its Normal Summon at all it figured out Jet Synchron was the most broken NS in the game).

Second, Apollousa could be negated by Infinite Impermanence and it would instantly kill the card. Not only was your opponent prevented from using its effects for that turn, but it also made Apollousa's ATK 0 from that point on. Even if it was the only generic Trap card, it was also a pretty strong counter to Apollousa.

Third, this is ignoring that there were a number of ways of dealing with the card outside of traps. Hand traps like Ghost Ogre could be chained to Apollousa's effect and keep it from resolving (similar to how you can Ghost Ogre Naturia Beast, although for different reasons), or depending on the board state, PSY-Framegear Gamma. There are also Spell outs, such as Lightning Storm (which in this purposa can also be Raigeki or Dark Hole), Dark Ruler No More, and Widow Anchor (back when Engage wasn't banned).

The biggest problem with Apollousa, in my opinion, is that if you summon it at summon <=5, you can keep your opponent from using Nibiru to break your board. That ended up actually being the most common use for the card, not as an LADD-style boss monster to end on.

Quote:
Even something like Blazar, which is undisputably still great for its strength and staying power, pales to something like Apollusa + ABCs + Cydra Infinity which are easier to spit out alongside other bosses and harder to break without both a situational hand + Extra Deck.
*takes a drag* I see we are both burdened with the knowledge of "Orbital 7 is now a playable card" and for that I am deeply sorry. ABCs are kind of a fascinating deck that reminds me of Gadgets: both are decks that have powerful gimmicks (A, B, and C all float when sent to the GY, the Gadgets all search each other) but weren't really able to fully utilize that power until a new summoning mechanic (Xyzs for Gadgets and Links for ABCs).

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I would argue Maid Dragon is more representative of power creep than anything. You get a float or removal effect whenever a Maid Dragon is summoned, which is consistently every turn and puts immense pressure on you to be faster and stronger to beat it.

And that's like... a tier 3 trash deck. It doesn't make big boards, it's closer in field presence to HERO Stun from a decade ago.
Kinnnnnddddd of. Part of the reality with Dragonmaids is that without Sheou, the deck doesn't have strong ways of dealing with the opponent's cards. Sure, there's a lot of inevitability with their cards, but they struggle to deal with established boards and if you can muscle past their one negation, the deck typically has difficulty pushing back.

Notably, the deck has only shined briefly in a PPG tournament, which is using their own banlist with a neutered Adamancipator and Eldlich deck, so take that as you will. This is the kind of deck where if it was Sheou-less, I'm honestly not sure it would have been strong enough to duel with decks five or six years ago. Sheou was really the pay off the deck needed.

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Mekk-Knights were the worst deck I played before the Colossus ban, able to muscle through 3 solemn judgments over the course of 3 turns. That's ridiculous. There are so many effects now you cannot stop turns at all with reactive traps and slow the onslaught.
I mean...you can. As mentioned before, there have been pretty successful trap based control decks, and cards like Solemn Judgment, Lost Wind, Crackdown, and Conquistador of the Golden Land are all good examples of reactive trap cards that can and do work.

But on another level, I agree that the meta really has shifted towards floodgates as a form of disruption. True Draco wasn't a deck that used reactive traps at all, instead opting to use floodgates like The Monarchs Erupt, Anti-Spell Fragrance, Imperial Order, There Can Only Be One, and others. Even in control decks like Altergeist or Guru Control, you were running some way of roughly stopping your opponent. To a certain extent this isn't a new development: I remember the Geargia deck that topped during one of the two Dragon Ruler formats running a bunch of anti-Druler floodgates like Imperial Iron Wall, or Qliphorts who very commonly ran floodgates like Skill Drain and Lose 1 Turn. But it's definitely more prevelant, or even standard, now.

I think what has happened is that the bar on what a good reactive trap has gone up. You don't see Torrential Tribute or Bottomless Trap Hole anymore. But I don't think its a situation like with battle traps, where, with only a few exceptions, battle traps largely disappeared from the meta entirely. A BIG part of this problem however has been Konami printing cards like Twin Twisters, Evenly Matched, Red Reboot, and Lightning Storm though. The more of these cards people are running, the less likely your chances of winning as a backrow based control deck are.

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I found those decks easier to handle. Being so common and so consistent makes counterplay easy to prepare beforehand. I remember during DUEA when the big annoyance was Evilswarm Ophion, and then new cards came out that made Ophion easy to deal with, yet facing Ophion again last December and I lost to it.
Understandable, but my point was more that they were simply better examples of that trend then a deck that only had fairly minimal success.

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This is arguably a good thing and more a quirk of circumstance, since those decks would make Links if they could, especially in the case of Borreload and Bagooska. Synchros and XYZs tend to be dead-ends on the summon chain and lack the protection and floating of newer cards that make them so cancerous. This also means there's old period tech available that can deal with them i.e. Super Poly, CED, and Dimensional Barrier.
This is something that I think you're misplacing misgivings about power creep on. I think you definitely could have argued back during Xyz format that Xyz monsters were complete dead ends. With a Synchro monster you could use it to climb into another Synchro monster, which was a very common strategy. But due to the rather large failure of Rank-Up-Magic as an idea, Xyzs were typically the end. There were some exceptions (such as Gaia Charger) of course, but that didn't stop Xyzs from being far more dominant in the meta than Synchros for a long time, since they often had stronger short term effects.

What I think really makes Links appealing is the generic summoning conditions. They really don't tend to float more or have more protection as a whole than the other summoning mechanics, but the fact that they don't have the other buy ins that other summoning mechanics do make them appealing. At the end of the day though, players are going to use the cards that are most optimal, and if those cards and combos are going to use Synchro or XYZ monsters, that's what they're going to use. Hell, there's an upcoming meta deck (Infernoble Knights) whose end-board is all Synchros and a monster negator out of a Gemini structure deck.

Also as an aside: Super Poly and CED are both just as useful versus Links as they are other summoningt mechanics. While the point about Dimensional Barrier is salient, I think it's also funny that because Synchro and Xyz monsters can be SS'd in Defense mode, they can't be popped by Lightning Storm, which is a benefit that Links don't have.

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I may have mentioned that when I was losing to D/D/D, I had little issue disrupting the deck with a well-timed Effect Veiler, since as an old deck it relied on long, uninterrupted combo chains and committed to the field with linear rigidity. D/D/D needed to run x3 Called to avoid being interrupted, and if they didn't draw it it was gg.

D/D/D was an example of a super roided out old deck, I used to wipe the floor with them before the Link era by being faster, dropping Dark Law and laying traps, but Links banned Level Eater and MR4 made it harder to do more than just Blazar + some solemn judgments.
I think that's a pretty good example of how MR4 created a lot of problems for decks that weren't more Link focused.

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They can run Called, but with x5 cards those old decks don't have the consistency or power to be able to run an anti-hand trap, traps and (by today's standards) weak stun monsters.

I played Nekroz when I was using Colossus and Kaijus and completely, utterly destroyed them. Nekroz and Six Sams, even during the time, were always trouble due to their anti-spell/trap an Normal Summon stun effects, but they were always vulnerable to monster effects that didn't start to become meta until the Pendulum era, starting with Ghost Ogre.
That's a fair analysis for sure. I do know that Impcantation Nekroz was a viable rogue deck for a couple of formats and now with Dragma coming in the next core set, there's a solid chance NEkroz could come back, but we'll have to see.

Six Sams also rather notably shifted much more towards "brother i would i would like some loops" and a burn FTK that used the Shinai / Mizuho loop, which to my recollection wasn't really played when Six Sams were meta in 2011. Even with searchable Gateway of the Six they couldn't rely on just putting down three Shi En anymore.

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Yep. Though the key distinction here is D/D/D, being more efficient and having more moving parts than Nekroz/Sams could afford to run stuff like Called. D/D/D also didn't autolose to Thunder Dragon Colossus in the same way Sams and Nekroz did, since the introduction of Colossus lead to decks avoiding deck-to-hand searching and going back to the annoying summon-from-deck searching.

All we need is a Dark Fusion monster that blocks summons from the deck. It will happen someday, and only then will power creep finally start to slow somewhat, since the only out after that are monsters that summon from the banish zone.
Despite this being a good analysis, D/D/D only has like one monster that SS's from the deck to my knowledge so I'm not sure about that XD. You still want your Keplers and your Gates to resolve, especially if you don't open Swirl Slime.

I still think the primary problem with MR4 was the fact that the restrictions on Synchro, Fusion, and Xyz monsters often served to hamper creativity and were stifling in many ways. Some decks adapted and evolved, such as Burning Abyss, but many others that might have seen some competitive experimentaiton otherwise were pretty quickly forgotten about.

Not seen while I was writing this up: Me yelling "YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN ONE" at Eldlich.
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Old 07-27-2020, 01:34 PM   #5569
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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Third, this is ignoring that there were a number of ways of dealing with the card outside of traps. Hand traps like Ghost Ogre could be chained to Apollousa's effect and keep it from resolving (similar to how you can Ghost Ogre Naturia Beast, although for different reasons), or depending on the board state, PSY-Framegear Gamma. There are also Spell outs, such as Lightning Storm (which in this purposa can also be Raigeki or Dark Hole), Dark Ruler No More, and Widow Anchor (back when Engage wasn't banned).

The biggest problem with Apollousa, in my opinion, is that if you summon it at summon <=5, you can keep your opponent from using Nibiru to break your board. That ended up actually being the most common use for the card, not as an LADD-style boss monster to end on.
Yes, that's what I'm thinking of. All the major big boards had a Nibiiru negator at summon 5 or they could eat a nibiiru and continue to spam. Additionally, nibiiru isn't a great equalizer and you need a nasty deck of your own to drop it and then vomit out the next turn. Just dropping it with hopes of playing defense isn't going to work.

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Kinnnnnddddd of. Part of the reality with Dragonmaids is that without Sheou, the deck doesn't have strong ways of dealing with the opponent's cards. Sure, there's a lot of inevitability with their cards, but they struggle to deal with established boards and if you can muscle past their one negation, the deck typically has difficulty pushing back.
Let me give an example of why this doesn't matter anymore. I actually played Dragon Maid recently twice, and went first with a hand of:

One Day of Peace, Twin Twister, Junk Synchron, Unknown Synchron, Shaddoll Beast

The Dragon Maid player set 2 and summoned 3 monsters, but was otherwise defenseless on my next turn. But I could do NOTHING. Sure, I could destroy the traps, but without the key component of Doppelwarrior there was no way to win.

Looking at the banlist, you can see why decks like mine which rely heavily on generic search cards are in pain:

>Colossus: 0
>Upstart : 1
>Foolish: 1
>Gold Sarc: 1
>Rota: 1
>Into the Void: 1

Spell searchers are better than monster searchers (in most cases) because a spell is always live, while a monster isn't, and draw cards are better after thinning because they increase the chance of drawing an unsearchable, generic card.

Yet we live in a world where almost all generic draw, and all generic spells, are limited in some way due to one meta deck abusing one of those spells out the arse.

With these hits, I'm back to MR4 where I can't really do anything except get lucky and blow out the opponent's board. And it could get worse with a Jet Synchron ban since even I am now starting to resort to to summoning Needlefiber/Linkross for more materials.

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But on another level, I agree that the meta really has shifted towards floodgates as a form of disruption. True Draco wasn't a deck that used reactive traps at all, instead opting to use floodgates like The Monarchs Erupt, Anti-Spell Fragrance, Imperial Order, There Can Only Be One, and others. Even in control decks like Altergeist or Guru Control, you were running some way of roughly stopping your opponent. To a certain extent this isn't a new development: I remember the Geargia deck that topped during one of the two Dragon Ruler formats running a bunch of anti-Druler floodgates like Imperial Iron Wall, or Qliphorts who very commonly ran floodgates like Skill Drain and Lose 1 Turn. But it's definitely more prevelant, or even standard, now.
It's cancer. First battle traps become irrelevant, then destruction traps, then targeting traps, then one-for-one reactive traps. Solemn is still useful for stopping Evenly Matched and Red Reboot but it can't stop turns by itself anymore. Though, with warning unlimited I think running the traditional "solemn brigade" of x2 warning and x1 judgment might still be viable.

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I think what has happened is that the bar on what a good reactive trap has gone up. You don't see Torrential Tribute or Bottomless Trap Hole anymore. But I don't think its a situation like with battle traps, where, with only a few exceptions, battle traps largely disappeared from the meta entirely. A BIG part of this problem however has been Konami printing cards like Twin Twisters, Evenly Matched, Red Reboot, and Lightning Storm though. The more of these cards people are running, the less likely your chances of winning as a backrow based control deck are.
I am still using Torrential. I think it's the best of the reactive traps now, bar warning, since even with the plusses and resilience modern decks have it can still stop turns efficiently. At least, I don't see many decks being able to spam the extra after two torrentials blow up their field.

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This is something that I think you're misplacing misgivings about power creep on. I think you definitely could have argued back during Xyz format that Xyz monsters were complete dead ends. With a Synchro monster you could use it to climb into another Synchro monster, which was a very common strategy. But due to the rather large failure of Rank-Up-Magic as an idea, Xyzs were typically the end. There were some exceptions (such as Gaia Charger) of course, but that didn't stop Xyzs from being far more dominant in the meta than Synchros for a long time, since they often had stronger short term effects.
At the end of the XYZ era, the strongest decks splashed a generic Rank 4 toolbox and it wasn't the end play itself. To replicate the same utility with Synchros you needed access to different levels which made it difficult outside of Synchron decks. It was only into Arc-V that we started to see the harder to summon XYZ monsters like that Raidraptor boss and Dark Matter Dragon.

I personally still do not consider Crystal Wing that good of a card, since it isn't truly generic and works only as a support boss to other negators that traditional Synchro decks can't summon. If a Link monster existed that could be summoned with the same 2 mats I definitely see it being used over Crystal Wing.

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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
What I think really makes Links appealing is the generic summoning conditions. They really don't tend to float more or have more protection as a whole than the other summoning mechanics, but the fact that they don't have the other buy ins that other summoning mechanics do make them appealing. At the end of the day though, players are going to use the cards that are most optimal, and if those cards and combos are going to use Synchro or XYZ monsters, that's what they're going to use. Hell, there's an upcoming meta deck (Infernoble Knights) whose end-board is all Synchros and a monster negator out of a Gemini structure deck.
The downside to this is they limit extra deck flexibility. Most Link spam decks I see need to devote close to 100% of the extra to climb into their bosses, which is fine if you have a consistent uninterrupted power play but also limits what you can do defensively if disrupted. The generic requirements ensure they don't brick as commonly as Synchros did but the idea of a locked/linear extra is a point to exploit.

Before the Colossus ban, I was able to limit my Extra Deck to two Synchro ladders + Thunder Dragons, Shaddolls and Dark Law. With those 3 and Blazar I was finally able to compete with the negators and floodgates of modern decks but I am heavily dependent on Colossus to make that work, even just ONE.

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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Also as an aside: Super Poly and CED are both just as useful versus Links as they are other summoningt mechanics. While the point about Dimensional Barrier is salient, I think it's also funny that because Synchro and Xyz monsters can be SS'd in Defense mode, they can't be popped by Lightning Storm, which is a benefit that Links don't have.
I don't agree for Super Poly. In the format it was banned, it was common to side Shaddolls so you could vaporize a Shaddoll field with it, but you can't do that with this Link madness because the entire Extra Deck is committed to Link power plays.

Super Poly is "bad" now because it's effectively 3 card dedication, needing an extra slot, Super Poly itself and a discard to be effective. Even with generic Dark fusion monsters it's still not that great.

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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Six Sams also rather notably shifted much more towards "brother i would i would like some loops" and a burn FTK that used the Shinai / Mizuho loop, which to my recollection wasn't really played when Six Sams were meta in 2011. Even with searchable Gateway of the Six they couldn't rely on just putting down three Shi En anymore.
All decks that can special summon a lot without an offensive power play inevitably degenerate into loop decks. I was the same way right before MR4, abusing Dark Law, Trishula, and Omega to loop out the opponent's hand rather than relying on Quasar to OTK them.

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Despite this being a good analysis, D/D/D only has like one monster that SS's from the deck to my knowledge so I'm not sure about that XD. You still want your Keplers and your Gates to resolve, especially if you don't open Swirl Slime.
They send the Level 1 tuner to the grave from the deck, then constantly spam summoning it from the grave to ladder up their synchros. Contract is what they used to add to the hand but it's the only card, once the tuner is in the grave they would bypass Colossus. So they can easily play around it or run something to remove it, rather than the entire deck getting locked down by it in the same way Nekroz and Sams are.
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Old 07-27-2020, 02:16 PM   #5570
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I'm not quite sure we're going to agree on the trap thing personally lol.

I didn't realize Rise of the Duelist was coming out in like, maybe two weeks and boy are there some cards I'm really looking forward too. Forbidden Droplet and Ice Dragon Prison are probably the big ones if I'm going to keep playing Altergeist, but with Dogmatika and Shaddoll Schism also coming out I might go for a Dogmatika Shaddoll deck. Hmm..
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Old 07-27-2020, 03:18 PM   #5571
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Just think of it this way:

2012: Go first, draw a trap = great
2020: Go first, draw a trap = scoop, you can't go +6 with a trap
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Old 07-27-2020, 06:32 PM   #5572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Just think of it this way:

2012: Go first, draw a trap = great
2020: Go first, draw a trap = scoop, you can't go +6 with a trap
But going first is the best time to see traps! They don't do anything going second! You fool!

Spoiler: show


This is my current Dogmatika Invoked Shaddoll build right now, I'm basing it off of similar builds from the OCG, although I might take time to check when Shaddoll Invoked was a Tier 1 deck in the TCG for like half a format to see if there were many major differences since the OCG is a notably different format.

The primary point of synergy in this deck is in Nadir Disciple, which searches a Dragma card (usually Ecclesia) in return for sending a monster from your Extra Deck to the GY. That's almost always Shaddoll Apkallone, which adds Shaddoll Schism from your deck to your hand, and then sends a card to the GY. This can trigger any of the Shaddoll monsters in your hand, or you can send the Schism to the GY.

Road of the King has an article to discuss some of the basic combos of the deck. Invoked is used for more power, since neither Shaddolls or Dogmatika require the Normal Summon and Invoked naturally fits with the deck.
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Old 08-02-2020, 11:01 PM   #5573
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So I've been playing around with a deck that I'm having a lot of fun with as...its actually an interesting version of a deck no one has liked playing against since 2010: Herald. But this version of the deck has some key differences. First, I'm not running Herald of Perfection, but Herald of Ultimateness. Ultimateness has better stats, a better effect, and for the first time in Yu-Gi-Oh, doesn't have to worry about its level anymore. In fact with the archetype I'm splashing in here, both Ultimateness and Perfection can be Ritual Summoned by only tributing one monster, so we're not even using Dawn of the Herald, it is just not necessary.

The archetype I'm splashing in here is Draitron. Despite the fact that the Draitron monsters are all Machine-type, they have a very synergistic interaction with Cyber Angel Benten. It is not uncommon to resolve Cyber Angel Benten 3 times in your opening turn with this deck, and also importantly, they are LIGHT monsters, meaning they can be used with Diviner of the Heralds, an absolutely insane card, to Link Summon Union Carrier and equip Eva to a monster you're about to use for Ritual Summon.

Spoiler: show
Main Deck: 40 cards
3x Diviner of the Heralds
2x Herald of the Orange Light (honestly the most cuttable card on the list, it doesn't do anything typically)
1x Lee the World Chalice Fairy (this card is surprisingly strong spice since it can recur itself every single turn)
3x Draitron Ban-Alpha
3x Draitron Al-Zeta
2x Draitron El-Gamma
3x Eva (probably the best card in the deck)
3x Herald of Ultimateness
3x Cyber Angel Benten
1x Draitron Meteornis=DRA

3x Pot of Extravagance
3x Cyber Emergency
3x Draitron Nova
3x Draitron Fafnir
1x Terraforming
2x Meteornis Draitron (This Ritual Spell uses ATK, not level, to Ritual Summon monsters, meaning that there is no reason to play Perfection in this deck, its just not worth it)

1x Draitron Meteor Shower (Occasional search target for Fafnir)

Extra Deck: 15 cards
3x Herald of the Arc Light
3x Union Carrier (equips Eva to any Draitron monster)
3x Borrelsword Dragon
3x Accesscode Talker
3x Hip Hoshinigen


Thanks to Eva, many opening combos can end on what are essentially 5+ negates that your opponent will have to chew through, since Eva will trigger when sent to the GY by any means. The Draitron monsters also give a ton of easy field advantage and do not lock you out of the Extra Deck like Impcantations, meaning easy access to Union Carrier. Herald, traditionally a very slow deck, now have the ability to close out games extremely quickly thanks to the Draitron monsters, giving access to Borrelsword Dragon, Accesscode Talker, and Draitron Meteornis=DRA on Turn 3 to finish the game.

The deck is extremely good going first and if it gets its combo off will likely win, since Ultimateness is not vulnerable to inherent Special Summons like Perfection is. The deck, as is its very traditional weakness, has trouble breaking boards going second and pushing through negations.

It's just fun to play a Herald deck that doesn't feel so ostensibly helmet. tbh

Also note, this is an EDOPro only deck right now since the Draitron are pre-release cards and not on DB as a result.
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Old 08-03-2020, 01:05 AM   #5574
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My understanding is kaijus can still remove Ultimate Herald. Is that mistaken?
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:22 AM   #5575
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My understanding is kaijus can still remove Ultimate Herald. Is that mistaken?
You are not mistaken! You can still remove Ultimateness with a Kaiju because it's not on the field anymore to negate the summon. Cards like Chaos Dragon Levianeer or Block Dragon are threats to Perfection that aren't threats to Ultimateness though.

Also, Kaijus aren't super common right now.
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