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Old 07-24-2014, 06:19 PM   #1
Talon87
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Of Braces and Breasts

Time for a lazybones debate setup. Well, I'm not even really looking for a "debate." More of a discussion. But it's one that I imagine might have some passionate and opposing opinions come up, so I figured it was better safe than sorry and that I should post the thread here.

You can probably figure out what I want to talk about just by considering the following questions:

Q1. How do you feel about orthodontics? Would you get dental braces for your child if they had crooked teeth? (If yes, under what circumstances might you not? If no, under what circumstances might you?) For those who did not have crooked teeth in childhood, say you had: would you have wanted your parents to get you braces? For those who did have crooked teeth in childhood, did your parents get you braces? If so, are you grateful to them for it? If not, do you regret that you weren't able to get braces? How do you feel about people with braces? How do you feel about people who have had braces earlier in life and now have perfect or near-perfect smiles?

Q2. How do you feel about breast augmentation? How do you feel about women who have gotten breast implants? What are your thoughts on augmented breasts themselves? If you are or were a woman with breasts smaller than you would like, would you want to get breast implants? Would you support a mother's, sister's, or daughter's decision to get breast implants?

(These questions are largely rhetorical, posed only to illustrate what it is that I would like to discuss. Though per the nature of that discussion, you may consider some or all of these questions relevant to your answer(s). Feel free to answer as many or as few of them as you like.)

Right. So, what I want to really discuss is ...

What makes orthodontics and plastic surgery of the breast different?

Because it seems like the way our society views orthodontics is very different from the way our society views surgical breast augmentation. One is normalized, the other is not. One is scorned, the other (as far as I know) isn't. One makes some individuals feel deceived or cheated, the other doesn't seem to do anything of the sort. When talking about breast implants, it seems inevitable that someone will suggest that the woman has self-esteem issues. Whether this is true or not, why does this same argument not come up with dental braces? I'm genuinely curious. Why is it that everyone is behind a woman with horribly crooked teeth getting her teeth straightened at age 35 -- and to top it off they say things like, "Oh, that poor woman! Why didn't her parents do something!?" -- but if that same woman decides she wants to go increase her breast volume then you suddenly have people bringing up all sorts of arguments as to why what she is doing is wrong?

Do arguments against plastic surgery apply to orthodontics? Do arguments in favor of orthodontics apply to plastic surgery? It would seem to me that many of them do. So which are the ones that do not? Which are the ones that explain our society's opposite views on these two corrective cosmetic procedures?

Like I say, I personally am not up for a scholarly debate on this one. But feel free to bring your academic A-game to the table if you're passionate about the topic. Really, I just wanted to casually discuss this in an arena where people on both sides of the fence would feel encouraged to speak up for or against either procedure.
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Old 07-24-2014, 06:27 PM   #2
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Yes orthodontics. I cringe everytime I see someone from Britain or Japan on TV sport the dreary denture look. One of my economics teachers was from Scotland, and he said when he first came to the US the dentist opened his mouth and said "Dear lord, poor baby!"

No breast implants but I'm a male so disclaimer. I am not totally against plastic surgery for someone who is approaching old age (or even some middle age folks) but I really don't see the point of the breast implant, it's dangerous and potentially painful.

I don't consider orthodontics or breast implants in the same category. One, the former applies to both males and females, and at a young age too, while the latter only sexually mature females (HOPEFULLY!). Two, everyone appreciates a nice smile. Even Japan with the "fang tooth" still likes a nice, straight smile. For the breast implants, it's more hit or miss.

Some guys love washboards.
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Old 07-24-2014, 06:56 PM   #3
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Okay, so you've brought up that breast implants are:
  1. typically gender asymmetric
  2. more dangerous
  3. unpopular with men who prefer smaller chests
But do any of these address the most common stigmas associated with breast implants? I don't know that they do. The most common insults or accusations I hear when someone gets breast implants are things like:
  • they're a sign of low self-esteem
  • they're trashy
  • they look unnatural, and consequently do not look good even to men who like big breasts
These criticisms do not care about gender, health risks, or preference for small chests. When men and women join together to insult someone whose photograph clearly shows that she has fake breasts, I can't even recall a single time I've heard someone say something like, "HOW HORRIBLE! Do you even know of the health risks!?"

And the thing is ... going down my list of three points, why shouldn't some of these apply to dental braces as well? Serious question. Orthodontics seems to me to be the dental equivalent of breast augmentation, and thus:
  • when somebody gets braces for themselves or for their child, shouldn't they be equally subject to accusations of vanity and low self-esteem? (Not saying that the accusations are or would be true. Just saying that wouldn't it only be fair, wouldn't it only make sense, for people to treat them the same way they treat those who get breast augmentation?)
  • I don't think anyone would say that braces are "trashy," but what exactly is it about breast implants that makes them trashy? Is it because a statistically disproportionate number of women who get breast implants are trashy individuals? Is this idea backed up by statistical studies?
  • on the one hand, if we could perfect breast enhancement surgery and make it so that fake breasts could not be told apart from real breasts, would this mean that people who dislike breast implants on these grounds would now like them? And on the other hand, if we're going to celebrate the value of natural breasts -- in all their shapes and sizes and colors -- then why is it that we don't celebrate natural mouths? Why is it that we go out of our way to pretty much give everyone the exact same mouth? We don't even stop at straightening the teeth: we also realign the jaw to eliminate overbite/underbite, file down particularly vampiric-looking canines, and bleach teeth to make them look whiter. Why do we frown upon teeth that are dyed? Why do we frown upon crooked teeth?
For the last question posed in this laundry list, I think part of it may have to do with Darwinian screening. That is to say, that at a primal level we judge that people with straighter teeth are healthier -- and thus better candidates for survival and for child-rearing -- than people with more crooked teeth. But I don't know.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
  • they're a sign of low self-esteem
  • they're trashy
  • they look unnatural, and consequently do not look good even to men who like big breasts
These criticisms do not care about gender, health risks, or preference for small chests. When men and women join together to insult someone whose photograph clearly shows that she has fake breasts, I can't even recall a single time I've heard someone say something like, "HOW HORRIBLE! Do you even know of the health risks!?"
I don't agree with any of those points.

The first is ridiculous. Someone has low self-esteem so they try to alleviate it somehow? The implication might be that the self-esteem issue stays. Maybe that's the case for some, but not for others. Saying that also seems to suggest that the only problem with a girl's (presumably romance-related) problems is her self-esteem and not her appearance. Wrong! While guys would certainly appreciate some confidence, a nice appearance trumps over everything. Men are shallow by nature whether others like or not, and we unconsciously make shallow decisions.

For example, last year at the senior-junior kickball game, I did not select a fat kid on my team and he got selected last. I was not thinking about parity at the time (since it's just a informal competition), I was thinking about wanting to win, and in my head a fat kid didn't correlate with speed or leg strength. After the draft was over I realized how insensitive I was being but I don't think anyone noticed really, even the fat kid.

Physical appearance > wishful thinking on the nature of self-esteem in society

#2 has no broad case application. Huge breast inflation is an issue, obviously, but if it's slight how would you know? I would not be able to tell someone at a glance who has 'fake boobs'.

The third retort is just a gargling of the second. I'm in this category, as it's how I personally feel toward huge, back-breaking chest sizes, but I doubt the girls who get them are thinking I wanna shag a guy who loves DFC! when they got the implants. Fudges given about those dudes: zero.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
And the thing is ... going down my list of three points, why shouldn't some of these apply to dental braces as well? Serious question. Orthodontics seems to me to be the dental equivalent of breast augmentation, and thus:
  • when somebody gets braces for themselves or for their child, shouldn't they be equally subject to accusations of vanity and low self-esteem? (Not saying that the accusations are or would be true. Just saying that wouldn't it only be fair, wouldn't it only make sense, for people to treat them the same way they treat those who get breast augmentation?)
  • I don't think anyone would say that braces are "trashy," but what exactly is it about breast implants that makes them trashy? Is it because a statistically disproportionate number of women who get breast implants are trashy individuals? Is this idea backed up by statistical studies?
  • on the one hand, if we could perfect breast enhancement surgery and make it so that fake breasts could not be told apart from real breasts, would this mean that people who dislike breast implants on these grounds would now like them? And on the other hand, if we're going to celebrate the value of natural breasts -- in all their shapes and sizes and colors -- then why is it that we don't celebrate natural mouths? Why is it that we go out of our way to pretty much give everyone the exact same mouth? We don't even stop at straightening the teeth: we also realign the jaw to eliminate overbite/underbite, file down particularly vampiric-looking canines, and bleach teeth to make them look whiter. Why do we frown upon teeth that are dyed? Why do we frown upon crooked teeth?
For the last question posed in this laundry list, I think part of it may have to do with Darwinian screening. That is to say, that at a primal level we judge that people with straighter teeth are healthier -- and thus better candidates for survival and for child-rearing -- than people with more crooked teeth. But I don't know.
1. It's not the child's decision at this point (so claims of low-self esteem do not count), it's the parent's, and I feel like the parent should be savvy enough to the role of personal appearance in society. Otherwise, I can't see much difference from something like "combing one's hair" or "wearing clean clothes". The opposition to orthodontics seems to imply wanting people to look ugly (but be confident) given the lambasting of trying to improve one's appearance by calling it vanity. At what point does hygiene cross into vanity?

2. The general distaste from a male POV is one of 1) undesirable personality and 2) deception. A woman who gets breast implants is communicating she's shallow, whether or not it's a practical idea or not. At the same time, if you recall the article I posted in the Going to Heck thread about the South Korean marriage, men do not want to have their genetics deceived. It's part ego thing, part biological worry. Men want to seduce, or allow a woman to seduce, not to be duped by a clever woman!

3. I've addressed this in other parts of this post but personal opinion, I think a nice smile appreciation has biological basis, while breast attitude is more cultural.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:20 PM   #5
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Orthodontics typically don't just happen because someone wants to have a nice smile. Big breasts are not a requirement for having a baby, but teeth are absolutely essential in order to crush and digest anything that isn't pureed or liquified - and nobody wants that kind of diet.

Teeth "straightening" is actually dental correction. If teeth are out of their correct alignment, they crash into each other or into other dental features. Biting down on food becomes difficult to impossible with the various kinds of abnormal bites, from underbite to overbite to edge-to-edge.

In the edge to edge case, the collision is the most dangerous - it can cause permanent damage to the tooth itself. Overbite and underbite are painful for different reasons.

In any case, breast augmentation is purely cosmetic and there is no conceivable reason why anyone would require a breast implant. In addition, there is a massive social stigma against "cheating" which breast augmentation surgery falls squarely under. Surgery for cosmetic reasons is NEVER viewed positively. And besides, it reveals a lot about the person in question that they felt so uncomfortable with their body that they needed to change it.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:12 AM   #6
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This thread seems a bit odd and mildly creepy, but I'll roll with it.

When a sister of my friend got breast implants, my friends were flabbergasted that she was a.) 16 by only two days and b.) had spent the muchas mullah for it. The reason why people were outraged was that the parents had given this girl implants instead of assuaging her that she looks fine the way she is. Breasts are inherently linked to female sexuality, and my friends were creeped out that the father would fish out the cash instead of telling her that he likes the way she is now. If she's an adult in college and still wants implants, that's fine. But there's something almost negligent of a parent to allow implants. Dunno, I'd prefer my parents to tell me that I don't need to hyper-sexualise my appearance for men and that I'm fine the way that I look.

Orthodontics are different especially they're less obviously linked to sexuality. And dentals are often not purely cosmetic, since bad teeth can lead to a plethora of problems later down the line. Bottom of the line is that many of us can live without breasts. Not all of us can live without teeth.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:11 AM   #7
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This thread seems a bit odd and mildly creepy, but I'll roll with it.
Then I'll ask you to leave. The debate forum does not need more personal attacks. And I won't be insulted nor accused of being creepy by someone whose idea of a good conversation starter is mildly offensive and setting-inappropriate stuff like this:

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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post
This TO need more sex and/or excitement.

Why, hello there? Could I offer you a free coupon to Disneyland, where the whores go? After all, where do whores go? Disneyland. #ASOIAF
I'm not being creepy. I'm seriously interested to discuss the philosophical differences between these two cosmetic procedures. Because I'd like to know why it is that our society seems to have little problem shaming the one group but not the other. While insightful discussion is appreciated, I can do without it if it's to come attached to backhanded insults.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:16 AM   #8
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I feel like I would feel much the same about people having braces for purely cosmetic reasons as I would about breast implants. Braces are often for more practical reasons - for example I had to have four teeth out because there wasn't enough room in my mouth and some new teeth were being forced out of my gumline at a weird angle by overcrowding, and then had braces to correct the gaps because they otherwise caused eating difficulties. If your mouth works fine, I don't see the need for braces.

I guess I've no issue with adults choosing to cosmetically alter their bodies though - it's a matter of personal preference, and I don't see it as much different to deciding to workout more because you want to be more toned or something.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:10 AM   #9
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So far, one of the biggest arguments I'm seeing for the distinction between straightening one's teeth and getting breast implants is that the latter is strictly cosmetic while the former is sometimes medically invaluable. As Shuckle put it:

Quote:
Orthodontics typically don't just happen because someone wants to have a nice smile.
There are two problems I have with this argument. And since it seems to be so heavily relied on in recent discussion, let's address them now.

First, the logical fallacy that because some orthodontic procedures are medically warranted that they all are. Put another way, that there's no such thing as an orthodontic procedure done purely for cosmetic reasons. I don't believe this is true at all. Frankly, I believe that most people who get their teeth straightened, their jaws realigned, etc, are doing so for primarily if not exclusively cosmetic reasons. This is partially testified to by the fact that not every first-world nation places the same importance on orthodontics that the United States does. One would think that if orthodontics were unilaterally such a life-saving deal that we wouldn't have incessant jokes about Brits with bad teeth. Furthermore, one would think that if orthodontics were on par with (say) open heart surgery or a liver transplant that it would not be insured separately (and less reliably) by medical insurers. I think that even our country acknowledges that the procedure is, in many cases, less preventative medicine and more cosmetic procedure.

When I received braces myself, the primary reason was that I had suffered an injury as a child which now made it so that one of my adult teeth was coming in at a very bad angle. There was another boy in my school system with a similar dental problem, but he did not get braces, probably because his family could not afford to. Indeed, we had to pay thousands of dollars for my own treatment: it was not something which health insururers of the 1990s would have considered a medical need.

Second, the implication that there is no kind of justifiable breast augmentation surgery. This is the reverse face of the same coin: first we explored non-essential orthodontic procedures, and now I want to explore some examples of breast augmentations that I think people are possibly overlooking and are probably in favor of. The best example is reconstructive surgery after a mastectomy. I don't think most of you would begrudge someone wanting to get an implant and other cosmetic touches intended to provide the patient with the same emotional comfort as a glass eye or a look-alike prosthetic hand. A second example would be the psychiatric benefit to a patient who suffers a variety of health problems attached to their poor body image. We often talk about how such individuals should be taught to love themselves for how they were born, but we don't do the same thing for people who suffer from gender identity disorders. The latter we take very seriously; if someone needs sex reassignment surgery, we don't try to talk them out of it by saying that they should learn to love being the gender they were born as. Should we? That's a debate for another day.

Offering one patient's experience with breast augmentation:
Quote:
In fact, she adds, the preparation for breast implant surgery pushed her into a healthier lifestyle. "I got into the vitamin regimen, quit smoking. It was a big opportunity for me to be a healthier person. It felt like everything was going in the right direction. It was so exciting."
That's the thing. Not just anyone can get breast implants. You have to be in good health and commit to a certain lifestyle to make them work right. For some individuals, then, would it not be true to say that breast augmentation surgery is not entirely cosmetic? If the options were "continue to kill yourself in other ways -- drinking, smoking, diet -- and learn to love your body as it falls apart" and "get the breast surgery and commit to a healthier you," which would you rather see a loved one do?

Quote:
"It's a body image issue, not a self-esteem issue. They want that body part to look more normal, to look better in clothes and bathing suits."

All that rings true with Kearney, she says. "I look in the mirror now and think, 'That's the way I'm supposed to look.' I have more confidence now. I can go clothes shopping, and it's amazing how things fit."
Quote:
Most women who get breast implants are realistic about the surgery, says David K. Wellisch, PhD, professor of psychiatry at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. He has authored a textbook chapter on the subject.

For them, it's a body image issue, he says. "They simply are not happy with their bodies and wish to improve them. They have realistic expectations that if this is done, they will look more satisfying to their own eye and to others. But their self-esteem does not depend on it."
What makes this body image issue different from others? Losing weight, everyone can get behind. Immense and direct health benefits. Gender reassignment, more people are getting behind. Seen as a necessary procedure for psychiatric well-being, with fewer people today saying that the person should learn to love being the gender they were born with. Prosthetic limbs, everyone can appreciate someone's desire to look normal, to not stand out and attract unwanted attention. It seems like breast augmentation is alone in this way. Rather than support the patient's decision to achieve their ideal look, we talk about how they should learn to love their body for how it currently is. Why? I mean, I'm not saying it's wrong, but why the apparent double standard? Does it come back to cost? Does it come back to health risks during and after surgery? Those apply to sex reassignment surgery as well. So I think no, it has to come back to people simply not respecting breast augmentation in the same way they respect other corrective procedures.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:20 AM   #10
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Then I'll ask you to leave. The debate forum does not need more personal attacks. And I won't be insulted nor accused of being creepy by someone whose idea of a good conversation starter is mildly offensive and setting-inappropriate stuff like this:


I'm not being creepy. I'm seriously interested to discuss the philosophical differences between these two cosmetic procedures. Because I'd like to know why it is that our society seems to have little problem shaming the one group but not the other. While insightful discussion is appreciated, I can do without it if it's to come attached to backhanded insults.
Talon, I was not intending to give you a backhanded insult. No need to enter umbrage over it. No need to drag in outside matters into this thread. And I never said that you were creepy; I was only noting that the discussion was veering, and that is not indicative of you as a person.

On the topic of orthodontics vs breast augmentation, both are fine if the patient is a willing adult who has clearly thoughts about the pros-and-cons of surgery. I like the libertarian approach to this issue: you have autonomy over your own body, and as long as you have offered clear consent, you are allowed to do whatever you want with it.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:32 PM   #11
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Hi, I'm Kush, King of the Britons, and I have terrible teeth*

Responding to the OP. Clearly there are many similarities between getting braces and having breast alteration surgery. Although I tend to get annoyed when reading about people who get breast enhancement on the NHS, the reality is that some people do have legitimate reasons for getting both of these procedures that go beyond simply wanting to change your appearance and get more sexy times. We live in a society where appearance is important, particularly in the case of women, and I would argue that both procedures can be important for that for slightly different reasons.

Taking braces, the smile is an important element of a lot of human interaction. If yours is unsightly for reasons that you can't entirely control, I think it's fair to say that that can have serious effects upon your self esteem and body image, potentially leading to more serious emotional problems down the line. Kids are mean and teasing can lead to bullying which can lead to kids taking razor blades to their legs every night. I can't claim to know much about dentistry so I don't know what other health concerns there are with whether or not braces are necessary but I imagine that there are cases where they are beneficial. Concept gave a good example.

With breast enhancement, clearly there is huge pressure on women to look like models all the time, even though models don't look like models most of the time. Having particularly small breasts or overly large ones can similarly affect your confidence and dramatically affect the way in which others interact with you. Again, there's the risk that this can become very serious own the line. As for health risks, some people have breast reduction because their backs hurt, other people have breast surgery because they've lost one to cancer or some other problem and want to look a different way.

Comparing it to something else, should we be able to have medical procedures to change our biological sex? For the vast majority of people this is something that comes from immense pressure and inner turmoil, clearly a serious healthcare issue, but then of course there's a cosmetic element to it too, but there are many people who are distinctly uncomfortable with transgender issues. I'm sure that many people have braces or breast enhancement for trivial reasons but I don't think that that discounts the reality of some people doing it because they see no other way out of their situation. Quite aside from trite libertarian platitudes about having the right to do it, some people feel obliged to change themselves. That says something about us as a species I think.


*My breasts are just the right amount of jiggly, though.
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Old 07-25-2014, 04:51 PM   #12
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If yours is unsightly for reasons that you can't entirely control, I think it's fair to say that that can have serious effects upon your self esteem and body image, potentially leading to more serious emotional problems down the line.
Awesome point, basically what I wanted to say but sweet and succinct.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:58 PM   #13
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So I'm going to go ahead and assume that breast reduction also falls into this discussion because it's just the flipside of augmentation.

And so, that said, to expand on what Talon said about how braces aren't always for medical reasons- So too is breast surgery not always cosmetic. In Canada, breast reduction is covered by our medical. Why? Because it can be used as the 'cure' to a 'condition' which causes back and shoulder pain and strain. So breast surgery can be medical.

Then, for dental. I come from a family which prefers natural teeth to the "fake smile perpetuated by Hollywood" (basically a quote). So I've heard a fair few points about how people these days are quick to strap braces on their kids to correct the slightest 'imperfection' and how not-completely-straight teeth can actually be better for your dental health.



So obviously I've just endeavored to highlight the sides of each topic which have been neglected. So basically what I'm trying to say is Orthodontics can be used for either Cosmetics or Medical Reasons. Breast Surgery can be used for either Cosmetic or Medical Reasons. What, then, is the difference?


And now that we're talking about the sociological implications- I think it's folly to assume that any cosmetic changes someone makes to themselves is to fit in or appear more appealing to others. It's completely possible, and common, that people make cosmetic changes for reasons unrelated to social norms. The vast majority of Tattoos fit under this, and Gender Reassignment could be considered to, too. Or, just, you know. Much personal expression. There are limitless hairstyles, and millions considered equally acceptable or attractive. Yet people will pick a particular one for themselves. How is that any different from changing other parts of one's body under their own wishes?
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:08 AM   #14
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Well I for one was appalled to see some of the horrible teeth other countries have on average. Do they just not care about cavities, infections, periodontitis? My family is full of dentists so I might be just a bit paranoid of dental infections but seriously, those things are awful to go through and awful to cure and it's just so much better to have nice teeth. I don't care if they aren't perfectly straight (and I'll agree that America can take it too far sometimes), but I do care if they are healthy and function normally. It's not right for anyone to have bad teeth and can lead to many problems down the line.

As for breast surgery, I still consider it purely cosmetic. The problems it solves are usually a little deeper than embiggening the chest area.
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:22 AM   #15
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On the dental front, the conversation is more about the straightening of teeth as opposed to, say, brushing regularly. Having straight and shiny teeth as opposed to cavities and the like.

On the latter issue, that's simply wrong. Having too large a chest can cause serious physical issues. That's fact. Chest surgery is sometimes necessary to aid healthy life.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 07-26-2014, 04:38 AM   #16
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So you don't think that people are likely to change aspects of their appearance to affect their perception by others or by society, Kin?
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Old 07-26-2014, 05:16 AM   #17
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My teeth were kinda crooked when I was younger. Never used braces, but they just straightened out without them. Had trouble eating with one side of my mouth for a while.

But I truly believe that they are not alike, in that a larger percent of people going for breast enhancement or reduction are not doing it for health issues, like in the case of braces (although it could be argued that braces are used mostly for appearance) but for physical appearance.
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:28 AM   #18
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So you don't think that people are likely to change aspects of their appearance to affect their perception by others or by society, Kin?
No, I do think that it's both likely and possible, but I don't think it's right to assume that changes to one's appearance are always (primarily) to affect their perception by others or by society.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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