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Old 11-21-2017, 11:10 AM   #1
Ex-Admiral Insane
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Kecleon Technical Machines: BMG and Costs

Hello dear all,

as some have you pointed out a few weeks ago, FB currently has no direct method for TM obtainment outside of zones and events, both of which have other useful items they can focus on giving out instead. The moderators currently have set up a preliminary price list calculated based on the move's Base Power - or Power Points if the move has no set amount of damage. Cases in red are those that could be considered odd and might have to be considered for an adjusted price in relation to other moves.

The first thing you'll notice are the steep prices that are being asked for TMs, especially in relationship to other Department Store purchases. There is currently another new discussion ongoing about the prices for various items in FB. That thread is designated for the discussion on costs in FB in general. The costs I want to discuss in this chat are the relative ones. eg; How much should Fire Blast cost in relation to Flamethrower, and how much should both cost in relation to an MT move?

To add on to this, as you can guess from the title, we are currently considering having this shop be a stand-alone from the Department Store (albeit with the same SO), and one that'll be BMG-exclusive.

-----

Please provide your opinion on this matter and give input on the price ranges. Everything is still considered negotiable at this point.

Questions:
1. What should the Min-Max range of TM prices roughly be?/What should be the relative cost differences between some moves?
2. How expensive should TMs be in relation to other things (such as the MT)?
3. How to tackle the issue of some TMs being cheaper than the MT service, for the same attack? How about the other way around?
4. Thoughts on the red-coloured moves and their issues?
5. Thoughts and feelings on the move to BMG?

-----

Example prices:

Formulas:
BP: $$$ = $8*BP
PP: $$$ = $100+$20*(45-PP)

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Attack Moves
$2,000 - Explosion
$1,600 - Selfdestruct
$1,200 - Focus Punch, Giga Impact, Hyper Beam
$1,120 - Sky Attack
$1,040 - Overheat, Skull Bash
$960 - Focus Blast, Mega Kick, Double-Edge, Solar Beam, Zap Cannon
$900 - Fissure, Horn Drill
$880 - Blizzard, Fire Blast, Thunder
$800 - Bide, Dragon Rage, Dream Eater, Dynamic Punch, Earthquake, Egg Bomb, Iron Tail, Metronome, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Stone Edge
$780 - Brine, Venoshock
$760 - Sludge Wave
$747 - Fury Cutter
$720 - Energy Ball, Flamethrower, Fly, Frost Breath, Ice Beam, Psychic, Rollout, Sludge Bomb, Surf, Take Down, Thunderbolt, Wild Charge
$709 - Nature Power
$700 - Natural Gift
$680 - Body Slam, Dragon Pulse
$660 - Acrobatics
$640 - Dark Pulse, Dazzling Gleam, Dig, Dragon Claw, Flash Cannon, Leech Life, Mega Punch, Poison Jab, Psyshock, Razor Wind, Scald, Shadow Ball, Submission, Tri-Attack, Waterfall, X-Scissor
$634 - Bullet Seed
$604 - Psywave
$600 - Brick Break, Counter, Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Giga Drain, Gyro Ball, Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Thunder Punch
$560 - Facade, Headbutt, Retaliate, Secret Power, Shadow Claw, Smart Strike, Steel Wing, U-Turn, Volt Switch
$520 - Bubblebeam, Low Sweep
$495 - Fling
$480 - Aerial Ace, Avalanche, Brutal Swing, Bulldoze, Dragonbreath, Dragon Tail, Hidden Power, Incinerate, Pluck, Rock Tomb, Round, Shock Wave, Silver Wind, Sky Drop, Swift, Thief, Water Pulse
$440 - Icy Wind, Snarl
$404 - Frustration, Return, Seismic Toss
$400 - Charge Beam, Flame Charge, Grass Knot, Payback, Smack Down, Snore, Struggle Bug
$320 - Echoed Voice, False Swipe, Mega Drain, Pay day, Power-Up Punch, Rock Smash, Water Gun
$160 - Infestation, Mud-Slap, Rage

Status Moves
$900 - Detect, Trick Room
$800 - Curse, Endure, Hail, Protect, Psych Up, Rain Dance, Recycle, Rest, Roost, Sandstorm, Snatch, Softboiled, Substitute, Sunny Day, Toxic
$700 - Ally Switch, Attract, Embargo, Double Team, Hone Claws, Nightmare, Quash, Swagger, Telekinesis, Torment, Will-O-Wisp
$600 - Aurora Veil, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Captivate, Confide, Flash, Reflect, Roar, Rock Polish, Sweet Scent, Swords Dance, Taunt, Teleport, Thunder Wave, Whirlwind
$500 - Safeguard
$400 - Light Screen, Work Up
$200 - Defense Curl


Bide, Counter, Dragon Rage, Fissure, Horn Drill, Metronome, Mimic, Sleep Talk:
As these have no set damage in the Pok'emon World, the prices you see have been determined by their PP.

Acrobatics, Brine, Bullet Seed, Fling, Frustration, Fury Cutter, Grass Knot, Gyro Ball, Natural Gift, Nature Power, Psywave, Return, Rollout, Seismic Toss, Venoshock:
All of these moves have a variable Base power. Because of that, their average Base Power has been used for calculation. In some cases such as Fury Cutter and Psywave it may be just easier to round it off and toss it into another group.

Avalanche, Facade, Frost Breath, Payback, Rage, Retaliate:
All of these have a variable Base Power. Their lowest BP has been used for calculation with the exception for Frost Breath whose critical hit damage has been calculated into the BP.

Detect vs Protect:
As you can see, though the two moves have the same function, they have differing costs because of the PP in-game. They can either have the same effect and then same cost, or they could keep their separate costs and gain different effects in FB.

Reflect vs Light Screen:
Only slightly different in usage but they nonetheless have different prices because of total PP they have in-game.

Last edited by Ex-Admiral Insane; 11-27-2017 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:46 AM   #2
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For Detect/Protect, I always saw the former as sort of a super-sensory awareness leading to a perfect dodge, compared to Protect just throwing up an impenetrable barrier. Run with that?
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:23 AM   #3
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1) Personally I'm of the opinion that the price range should be roughly $200 to $2000. I like the 2000 cap and it makes sense for a move such as Explosion to be up there. Honestly though, I feel some moves are priced a bit too closely together (Mainly Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower and Thunder/Blizzard/Fire Blast) and I feel that those types of moves build on each other in terms of tier of power. I'd think if the latter three were moved up to the BP 120 tier like they were for the majority of games, I'd be a bit more satisfied.

2) The MT and TMs should be priced relatively the same, in my opinion. Most TMs should certainly be more expensive than say healing or cosmetic items, and depending on their utility be cheaper or more expensive than Pokeballs. I feel the current suggested list fills this niche out nicely.

3) Honestly I feel that this isn't really an issue. It allows people who want to be a bit more frugal with their money be, well, frugal. Of course, there isn't a terribly huge overlap between TM and MT moves, but I'd suggest that TMs that have their base price lower than a MT move be raised to match the Natural Cost for a Move Tutor, and TMs that have their base price higher than an unnatural move be lowered to match the price of an unnatural move. This would work in conjunction with the current proposed changes in the MT thread, and should be considered ignored if they do not go through.

4) The red moves are the only thing that really irritate me, personally. Fissure and Horn Attack make perfect sense where they are, but then we hit the $800 tier and things start to fall apart. All of those moves in the $800 tier are situational at best and most rely on luck and updater discretion. I'd be much more comfortable with Bide/Mimic/Metronome/Sleep Talk be around the $400 range and Dragon Rage around the $500 range. Brien and Venoshock should be with Sludge Wave, as while they're powerful again they fall under situational circumstances. Raise Fury Cutter to $750, the pricing just irks me. Same with Nature Power to $710, Bullet Seed to $640, and Psywave to $600. While I believe Siesmic TOss should be lowered to $400, I feel Return/Frustration should be raised to $500. The main reason is that at optimal these moves can be really powerful, though it needs to be decided how their optimal power is still brought out. In terms of status moves, just make Detect and Protect the same price. They do the same thing, there is no reason for them to have different prices.

5) Honestly, in terms of the BMG move, I feel we're not ready. At least, not now. I'd wait for until after the new year to start really planning on opening a BMG branch, as there are still a lot of things here on UPN that need to be resolved before we open on BMG. While fresh blood is good, there is more that needs to be worked on than what fresh blood can fix.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:10 AM   #4
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-Min-max price range for TMs
First off, round everything to base 10. Makes life simpler for everyone. Then, we should probably be sorting them by utility, rather than base power or PP. Snarl is a weak move, but the RP uses of it are infinitely more than just damage, whereas Brutal Swing is technically stronger, but its uses are pretty limited in an RP environment. I'd personally go with bracketing them on what uses the move could have as well as how powerful/effective it is.

-TMs vs pricing of other things
They should probably be on a par with the MT, yes.

-TMs cheaper than MT
...That's the price of learning a crap move, and honestly it's probably more a reflection on MT prices than TM. Personally I'd do this sort of system for the MT and then flat double everything for unnaturals, but hey ho.

-The red categories
-Protect/Detect should cost the same but they are different, as I said before. Detect reads more as a guaranteed dodge, whereas Protect is just a shield.
-Non-set damage moves... Other than the OHKO moves they seem wayyyy too high.
-Reflect/Light Screen should cost the same. No debate, really.
-The variable damage moves... There's a good few issues here. Rollout, Fury Cutter and Frost Breath are imo a bit too high, whereas Acrobatics, Frustration and Return are too low.

-Moving to BMG... Soon. Not quite yet imo, we should probably wait a bit, but soon. Although equally this is becoming a Tess-level "Soon." so we should probably decide if we're ever actually going to be ready. Because honestly it's probably going to need doing soon or never.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:35 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil'twick View Post
5) Honestly, in terms of the BMG move, I feel we're not ready. At least, not now. I'd wait for until after the new year to start really planning on opening a BMG branch, as there are still a lot of things here on UPN that need to be resolved before we open on BMG. While fresh blood is good, there is more that needs to be worked on than what fresh blood can fix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironthunder View Post
-Moving to BMG... Soon. Not quite yet imo, we should probably wait a bit, but soon. Although equally this is becoming a Tess-level "Soon." so we should probably decide if we're ever actually going to be ready. Because honestly it's probably going to need doing soon or never.
Just to chime in about BMG real quick- The expansion will be happening sooner rather than later. We have been in communication and working with the mods at BMG about them making the transition smooth and easy for us, and the ground work has already been set. Our goal is to open things up over there around New Years. We could continue to wait and let things develop, but frankly, if we don't set a deadline nothing will ever progress. Lastly, as our community's numbers have slowly declined over the past months, it's important now more than ever that we're able to replenish them with new life.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Admiral Insane View Post
Questions:
1. What should the Min-Max range of TM prices roughly be?/What should be the relative cost differences between some moves?
2. How expensive should TMs be in relation to other things (such as the MT)?
3. How to tackle the issue of some TMs being cheaper than the MT service, for the same attack? How about the other way around?
4. Thoughts on the red-coloured moves and their issues?
5. Thoughts and feelings on the move to BMG?
1. Consider that, in order for a player to make $1.000, he needs 4 replies to zones. At the current overall pacing of adventures, that might not be achievable in a single month, variable as something like an RPG's pacing may be. In a period of updating frenzy, a player might just earn that 1k in a week, while during extreme stagnation, it might take him 2 months or more.
Hypothetically speaking, if we take 1 month to make 1k, and an average TM price is 1k, a player will maybe purchase at best 12 TMs in a calendar year, and I don't think it's ideal considering there will be other places where money will be spent. I would prefer if the average price of "utility TMs" (say, 80 BP moves?) be under 1k, but not dirt-cheap either. All this to say that I agree with the price range proposed in the opening post, though I would prefer if they were priced in multiples of $50 rather than 880, 640, and so on.
Also, as food for thought: universal access to Teleport can break adventures in half, it's a hard counter for an absurd number of obstacles. Ramp that thing up in price please :P

2. The selection and utility of TMs is arguably greater than that of the current MT list. Having unnatural MTs cost more than universal TMs doesn't make much sense to me - and if we have varying prices for TMs based on factors like BP and PP, paying the exact same amount for MT Mega Punch and Mega Kick becomes a bit harder to justify :P Same criteria should go for both, because paying 1k to teach a Pikachu how to Mega Punch and less than that for Focus Blast doesn't add up. At the very least make the costs equal (even though TM prices are scaled and MTs are not), but honestly, I would argue that at least 70-80BP TMs should be more expensive than Tutors. I don't particularly care for money matters enough to go into detail for each move, because cash mechanics in RPGs make me uncomfortable, but that's the gist of it I think :P

3. Honestly I just think the current price suggestion for unnatural MTs is excessive - I'm rather okay with the prices suggested for TMs. In the odd case that the same move costs more as an MT than TM, or vice versa, that's a minor issue and secondary to whatever pricing mehtod we choose - players should be smart enough to choose how much they want to spend then.

4. Too specific for my liking, sorry. I like simple pricing schemes and while I understand the need to define parameters for the exceptions, I just don't like to delve into this kind of pricing details - especially in a game with little to no PVP, it makes little sense to me to be nitpicky about numbers :P I'll agree with whatever ends up being decided.

5. If we postpone indefinitely, we will lose too much momentum. We need active "old" players to welcome the new ones that might enter via BMG, so we better move now before the old guard loses interest in the game. Because in the end, that's all this is - a game, not a multinational company. If we worry about every little thing yet to be optimized before branching out, the whole thing kinda... loses its fun. Let's just do it :P
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:30 PM   #7
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Okay, it’s been a week so I think we can continue with answering some of the questions.
First off, I’ll be providing my own opinion on some of these matters and not that of the moderators as a whole.

Round off weird prices
Pretty much a given. The prices here were a basis to start with, and were based on a simple formula to use. We will, in all likelihood, not have weird prices such as $747 and $709 but instead just round them off. Possibly, I’m not too opposed to rounding some other things off to the nearest $50 say, but we’ll see.

Sorting by utility
No.
It makes sense, yes, but then we’ll have to go through each move individually and judge how usable it is. That’s a conversation that’ll be long and tedious, and one I’m not very interested in starting. Consider the price list to be a base to start with. If there are any “utility moves” you see that need adjusting based on others, then simply mention them instead and propose a new (relative) price.

Teleport
This is an example of that. Considering its use, I’m not opposed to having its price equal to, say, Trick Room?

Detect/Protect
The moves do indeed have different methods, but the same basic effect. So we can either give them slightly different effects to adjust to their prices, or we adjust their prices so they’re equal. Most seem to want the latter so I guess we’ll go with that?

Reflect/Light Screen
Same here. If there are no objections, their prices will be adjusted so they’re similar.

Return/Frustration
My thought was their power was going to be based on the Pokémon’s Bond points. I agree they could be higher than $404 because of their use.

Fireblast/Blizzard/Thunder vs Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt
Not sure about this yet myself, but I’m not opposed to slightly heightening their price to distance the two groups a bit more.

Bide/Mimic/Metronome/Sleep Talk
I’m fine with the proposed changes if everyone else is.

Dragon Rage
I’m fine with the proposed changes if everyone else is.
The other proposal I have is that Dragon Rage can be considered to be a stronger Dragon-type move in FB than it is in the game, more akin Energy Ball/Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Psychic/Sludge Bomb/Surf/Thunderbolt, but I suppose Dragon Claw and Dragon Pulse fulfill that slot close enough as it is.

Seismic Toss
Not so sure about this one yet.

Fury Cutter/Rollout/Frost Breath
I’m fine with lowering these somewhat, though I’m not sure to what tier yet.

Acrobatics
Not so sure about this one yet.

MT/TM Price balance
I have nothing on this yet.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:52 PM   #8
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Understandable on the utility front.

Make Detect and Protect the same price. They're only aesthetically different.


Also, bringing over my thoughts from the other thread because it belongs here a bit more.

Personally, I think we should merge the MT and TMs. Both move listings are merged. Instead of buying TMs, they're tutorable. Handout TMs as rewards are used as a free learning of said move, and can be either an ingame TM move or a MT move. TMs and MTs use a set price list for teaching moves, more akin to the proposed TM pricings, just with the MT moves added in. Unnatural moves cost double their regular price.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:33 PM   #9
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Honestly, I'm not a fan of MTs and TMs getting merged into the same mechanic because then there would be no definable distinction between them, they might as well be in the same category. They're already very well distinguishable from each other as is; MTs are cheaper, yet take time to learn, while TMs cost more but are used more instantaneously.
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:38 PM   #10
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Understandable, but equally that's an arbitrary distinction made by Fizzby, and given the proposed changes to MTs it's also likely to be sort of irrelevant when they make the MT teach batches of moves at once. I do see your point thought... Maybe make TMs retain their instant teaching properties? This in tandem with the merging of the lists, but TMs would have a slight advantage rather than 'Oh hey I saved a few hundred Pokebucks which equates to like ten dollars'.
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:40 PM   #11
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Okay a few final thoughts to sum up changes to be made as we wrap up discussion in here:

1. I believe that Reflect, Light Screen, and Safeguard should all be grouped together.
2. Prices will be rounded to the nearest value of $50.
3. The TM shop will be opening on BMG.

If there are any further questions or discussion, please state your case now.
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