01-01-2012, 07:58 AM | #1 |
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The Legend of Zelda Official Timeline Released!
http://kotaku.com/5869993/this-might...zelda-timeline
http://kotaku.com/5871215/the-offici...h-added-detail Spoiler: show A few days before Christmas, Nintendo released a new Zelda artbook in celebration of the series' 25th anniversary. With it came a copy of the allegedly official timeline, which confirms Skyward Sword as the first chronological game, and the original NES The Legend of Zelda (plus its sequel) as one of the last. It also verifies what many fans have been saying for years: That a split timeline occurs following Ocarina of Time. However, what is unexpected is that instead of creating only two separate timelines, there is in fact a total of three: 1) The Adult Era, where Ganondorf is sealed and the Great Flood occurs, leading to the events of Wind Waker and the DS sequels; 2) The Child Era, where Ganondorf is executed, and subsequently the Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess games take place; and finally 3) A third timeline where the hero is defeated, resulting in The Sealing War and Ganon's repeated revivals, encompassing many of the earlier Zelda titles. Credit for Image
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01-01-2012, 01:15 PM | #2 |
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I really don't like the Hero of Time is defeated split. It makes sense with the games, but the Hero of Time never loses :P. Also wouldn't there be a bunch of timeline splits with each hero possibly having been defeated/never showing up?
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01-01-2012, 01:34 PM | #3 |
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It's interesting that they've officially weighed in. Whether fans choose to accept or reject this timeline is up to them, but should they choose to reject it then they cannot expect to win in any e-peen arguments about Zelda lore -- because all their opponent need do is point to this timeline and declare, "I'm right, you're wrong. "
This kinda reminds me of George Lucas officially weighing in on Star Wars lore and the Star Wars' galaxy's timeline and how there are many fans who reject bits and pieces (or even whole swaths) of Lucas's canon because it doesn't jive with their own preferred way (i.e. their fanon way) of interpreting the universe he originally created in those first three films. Concepts like how primitive or not primitive of a society were Wookies pre-Empire, how numerous were Jedi in their zenith, when was the zenith for Jedi, etc. Some fans absolutely love the concept that androids like C-3PO existed 4,000 years before the movies while other fans cringe at the thought because of what it says for the technological stagnation of the Star Wars universe. Some fans love that Anakin Skywalker canonically built C-3PO while other fans hate it very much and prefer to think of C-3PO as one model of many based on a generic android archetype whose various facets we have seen in Empire Strikes Back (with the silver 3PO look-alike) and other venues. I imagine the Zelda fandom will probably react in much the same way to this timeline. Some will be quite happy with Skyward Sword being a canon predecessor to Ocarina of Time while others will reject it outright ("To hell with canon! ") and prefer to think of Ocarina of Time and Skyward Sword as two different Origin stories that exist on parallel timelines. That's just one of the many things I can see fans taking sides on when it comes to this timeline. Char raises a solid point about the fact that "the hero is defeated" should no more be an explored avenue for Ocarina of Time than it should be one for any of the other games. Why isn't Ocarina of Time what happens when the hero in Skyward Sword is defeated? Why isn't Minish Cap what happens when the hero in Skyward Sword is killed in childbirth? So on and so forth. That stated, I have to admit that I appreciate the cleverness and the "Supwise! :3" factor of Nintendo's decision to tell the fans that OoT forks off three ways rather than the long well-understood two ways that were rendered pretty durn obvious by Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. From what I understand, a great many old-school fans took issue with OoT's claims to being "the oldest Zelda yet" because of statements made in LttP's script that made it pretty clear that LttP Link was the Link / the first Link. While those fans are still going to have to wrap their heads around Skyward Sword Link and Minish Cap Link predating their personally preferred Link, at least now they can have some peace of mind, knowing that OoT Link did not invalidate LttP Link because, in LttP's timeline, OoT Link failed, thereby allowing some fans to Speaking of the LttP timeline, though ... I don't see why, and I don't much fancy that, they put "the Sealing War" after the split instead of before it. Isn't the Sealing War exactly what OoT was always supposed to be about? I guess the LttP fans disagreed loud and hard enough for Nintendo to deem this fork in the path necessary. Apparently since the events depicted in OoT aren't exactly a "war," it wasn't acceptable to LttP fans that the sages referred to in LttP are the same sages we met in OoT. I guess running along those same lines (iirc; my LttP memory's hazy) would be the fact that the named sages in LttP did not share in common their names with the named sages in OoT. So I guess the Sealing War LttP speaks of had to be made separate from OoT.
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01-01-2012, 02:25 PM | #4 |
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I've been thoroughly confused with the Zelda timeline for some while. While this clears up a lot, why is there two "Four Swords" in the timeline? I thought there was only one, but in the timeline there's one after Minnish Cap and one after Twilight Princess that's coupled with Hyrule Adventure, which I've never heard of. Is there two seperate games titled Four Swords? Or am I missing something?
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01-01-2012, 03:21 PM | #5 | |
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01-01-2012, 09:05 PM | #6 |
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Clearly, it's meant to symbolize the Trifork. *shot*
I'm okay with the fact that one of the post-OoT routes is the "Defeated Hero" timeline. It doesn't necessarily mean that there couldn't be alternate universes arising from the hero's defeat in other games. The one following OoT just happens to (Though it certainly pains me to consider the thought of Link's demise. =< Never would've imagined he could ever fail firsthand in his quest. His absence from WW's history was depressing, but at least the failure to re-seal Ganondorf wasn't his fault that time.)
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01-01-2012, 09:35 PM | #7 | ||
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Yuki: But that's not fair. ;.; Ganon may have escaped from his seal hundreds of years later. OoT Link may have long since died by that time even had he remained behind in their world. True. But, as much as it pains me to roll with this figure (since it pretty lol'ingly laughs in the face of how evolution really works), we're told at some point in the game that Wind Waker takes place "about a hundred years" after Ocarina of Time. (IIRC, isn't Tetra supposedly the great-granddaughter of OoT Zelda? Hence "tetra", the 4th?) And we know, given the Bayeux Tapestry-style intro, that Ganon's escape precludes the actions undertaken by the King of Red Lions and the goddesses of Hyrule to thwart Ganon, i.e. we know that his escape must have taken place back when WW Link's grandmother either was a child or else hadn't even been born yet (since neither she nor any of the other islanders seem to know anything about the Hyrule of old other than what's been passed down through their oral tradition). So ... this would very much suggest that Ganon escaped from his confines at a time when OoT Link, had he remained in that timeline, would have still been a young man in his physical prime (30s to 40s tops) and would have been able to defeat Ganon once again. So ... yeah. You can very much attribute the sufferings of the Wind Waker world, at least in part, to Link's failure to be there for them. I guess that's why I love the WW timeline so much. A, because I always preferred Adult Link to Child Link; and B, because I'm a sucker for a good tragedy and Wind Waker is one hell of a tragedy, from beginning (abandonment by the Hero of Time) to end Spoiler: show Of course you're absolutely right about your response to Char's point. But I think Char is right, too, that it still seems a tad silly that we should only ever have explored one of these "Hero is defeated" pathways and that we should have explored it so thoroughly as we're being told that we have. Come to think of something though ... :o You know how Twinrova are alive and well in Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons? Now that we know that they've placed those games in the Fallen Hero timeline, do you think that that could mean that the Hero of Time failed in his mission before even getting through the Gerudo Desert temple and defeating the two witches? Come to think of it, I had forgotten this, but the two witches are present in Majora's Mask. However, there, they're friendly. Do you think that ...
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[/Zelda speculating way too much for someone who isn't really even all that into the Zelda franchise. Hell, I totally passed on Skyward Sword despite the rave reviews, didn't I?]
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01-01-2012, 09:47 PM | #8 | |
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I never pondered much on the actual Zelda timeline myself. I just enjoy the games as they are, and am happy to consider each one a separate legend on its own. It's fun how the series produces so much fan speculation though.
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01-01-2012, 09:58 PM | #9 | |
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I kinda wish Nintendo would release an official Metroid timeline too. I don't think Metroid is as badly in need of Nintendo's official seal of timeline approval as Zelda was -- I'm pretty sure the Metroid fans have it all figured out and that nobody really disagrees about which games happen when -- but it's another franchise riddled with games happening out of chronological order and, again as a casual fan, I'm interested to have it laid out for me but not interested enough to memorize the order and the supporting arguments for the order myself.
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01-01-2012, 10:11 PM | #10 | |
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Lol, I'd be down for some free-for-all Zelda debate, whether it's favorites or theories. Would be happy to share my reasoning for why I consider Majora's Mask a dream if anyone's interested. Mm, this thread has me really fired up to play some Zelda again. (Move aside, Katawa Shoujo! XP) Curious, would anyone else be interested in watching me stream a playthrough of OoT - Master Quest edition? Unfortunately I won't be able to provide commentary though.
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01-01-2012, 10:11 PM | #11 | |
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Not as poor as your taste in ponies, though.
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01-01-2012, 10:15 PM | #12 |
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Believe me, Reborn-loving, Haruhi-hating Muyo: the feeling is quite mutual.
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01-01-2012, 10:18 PM | #13 | |
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01-01-2012, 10:26 PM | #15 |
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We still need to finish MM, Yuki. :x
In other news, the only Zelda games I've played continues to be just LttP, OoT, Awakening and MM. |
01-02-2012, 12:32 AM | #16 | |
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Spoiler: show Now that that's out of the way, Majora's Mask is probably my third favorite Zelda game after Windwaker and Oracle of Ages/Seasons. I haven't played Minish cap yet though, so that may slot in near the top (I really enjoy the handheld Zeldas). I like Majora's Mask because you really get to see the characters react to a real catastrophe, the bombers notebook sidequest was a good deal of fun to me and it's fun to run around as a hero from a different race- I really think MM gets glossed over because OoT was first (and as a result, was the revolutionary one), but quality wise MM has it all over OoT in my estimation.
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01-02-2012, 12:54 AM | #17 | ||
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01-02-2012, 02:25 AM | #18 |
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Haruhi, I'm not going to reply to in depth here since it's not really the right venue for it. But I appreciate your response. For some things you said, I don't agree with your observations but if I did then we'd have reached the very same conclusions about what we observed. Other things you said, I do agree with what you observed but we differ in how we feel about those observations. So ultimately, Haruhi's kind of a salad bowl for you and I, and there's no real plausible way for us to see 100% eye to eye on it. I think it's a sign of your poor taste that you don't like it (not all on its own, of course, but in conjunction with some of the other things you like that I don't or that you dislike that I do like); and vice versa, you've already insinuated that those folks who do like Haruhi are beneath the pot-smoking armchair philosopher teenagers you might find in any high school across America. Sooo... clearly there's a disconnect. But if we want to discuss it at greater length, there's always the Haruhi thread in the Anime forum.
Reborn, it wouldn't really give me any satisfaction to re-explore why I disliked this series. I think I did a good enough job of that back when I watched it But as for Majora's Mask ... Majora's Mask: the one game in the franchise that does everything wrong. :xIt wasn't originally in a list format like this, but the core ideas are left intact as are the bits of text before and after the list. In any event, Majora's Mask is kind of like raisin bread. All of the ideas that went into Majora's Mask are the raisins, and all of the Ocarina of Time-inherited graphics, gameplay, and physics engine are like the bread itself. The bread component is great. The raisins, however, are all little rabbit turds. We lost Ganondorf for a Skull Kid with Faust-the-Mask on his face. We lost Adult Link for Child Link. We lost three elemental goddesses who created the world for four Tiki mask-wearing giants. We lost perma-pony for have to retrieve your horse every x hours because lol time resets. And we gained the abomination that is Tingle, the Jar Jar Binks of the Zelda franchise. Need I go on? Need I seriously go on? You say "Everyone loves OoT because it came first. *pout* If you objectively look at MM, it's clearly so much better." NO. Everybody loves OoT more than MM because OoT is a good game whereas MM is an amalgam of terrible ideas, some of which were probably originally put forward for OoT but were rejected because they are so bad. There's a reason why so many of the novel ideas in Majora's Mask have never been implemented again in any of the other Zelda games that have come out in the past ten years -- because novelty doesn't necessarily equate quality.
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01-02-2012, 03:16 AM | #19 |
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I'm happy to continue the Haruhi discussion elsewhere, but before we discuss it in any depth, do you want to punch Haruhi or not? Personally, I can understand why people like the show just fine- it's not for me, it didn't rock my world or open my eyes to new possibilities or anything like that. While I was watching it I kept waiting for it to get good, or for the startling revelation that would turn it around, and it didn't come, but I was able to identify after the fact what other people likely found so interesting. You can post your reply to my last post in the Haruhi thread and I'll read/reply and such.
Back to MM! 1.) I personally enjoy a little villain variety, so the lack of Ganon really didn't bother me- Mixing things up with a Vaati here or a Skull Kid there keeps the boss fights from getting stale (Mario is a victim of Bowser overuse, in my opinion), and his battling style was a welcome departure from the Ping Pong-ish game one has to play with Ganondorf in OoT. 2.) Link set out on a journey to find a friend he had lost: That friend was Navi. I thought that was pretty clear, but it is stated explicitly in the official manga. 3.) Apart from Link not being able to "get some" I really don't see the importance of the difference. 4.) Yeah, I don't know why the moon is angry, but it doesn't really bother me. 5.) I thought it was interesting, but I can understand why you might consider it History Channel-y to suddenly introduce aliens. Carry on. 6.) Different land, different mythology. Din was the Oracle of Ages, not a Goddess in Oracle of Ages so the mythology can change depending on the land/world without loss of quality. 7.) Yes. 8.) Sure, you remember the characters, but I think you see a greater emotional range in MM. Seeing how the dialog changes as people adjust to their ever assured doom is fascinating to me. 9.) Lists are fun. 10.) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...cansHateTingle. Yeah he's annoying, but he's big in Japan. Doesn't that mean that you have to love him by default, Talon? I say if MM came first people might like it better than OoT, I personally don't give a shit what other folks think of it.
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01-02-2012, 03:24 AM | #20 | |
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Suffice to say, by the end of Season 1? No. By the end of Season 2? Yes. Events happen in Season 2 which ... Season 2 spoiler, don't click, people! (Muyo can, though, as he'll likely never watch that far) Spoiler: show So yes. To answer your question, even the non-violent among us have felt the urge to punch Haruhi by the time Season 2's over and done with. Now to read the MM stuff ... will edit in reply here if nobody ninjas me first. Will otherwise post reply in a second post.
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01-02-2012, 07:52 AM | #21 |
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Talon you don't have to reget your horse every time in MM, you can just play Epona's song after resetting (and getting said song) and she'll come for you. Important stuff gets saved (you can save ruppees at the bank), and non important stuff is just a slash away in the grass outside. And I don't see how anyone can fail with the timelimit considering the reversed song of time.
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01-03-2012, 06:28 AM | #22 |
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01-03-2012, 10:48 AM | #23 |
時の彼方へ
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lol, the CDI games. They are to Zelda what the Star Wars Holiday Special is to Star Wars.
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01-05-2012, 11:36 PM | #25 |
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I feel like I just got a faceful of the Akashic Records in reading Talon's speculation and the time-line, and now I feel lost and scared, the universe seems so much larger and emptier than I previously thought.
I've played the Oracle games and ALttP. Most of this is way over my head.
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