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View Poll Results: Are you willing to update more to help?
No 1 11.11%
Yes - 1-2 Additional Adventures 6 66.67%
Yes - 3-4 Additional Adventures 1 11.11%
Yes - 5+ Additional Adventures 1 11.11%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-25-2020, 06:51 PM   #1
Sneaze
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Furret Third Adventuring Slot

After a fair bit of discussion in Discord, as well as discussion between the ZAs, we would like to bring this up for community discussion proper to see where everyone falls on the matter.

As of now, we are painfully aware that a third adventure slot would put some extra strain on what updaters we currently have. So in addition to this discussion, we do need everyone to check the poll above so we have a quick idea of just how much of this workload could be handled in the event that the third slot is brought back.

But, for points of discussion on the matter, we do also want detailed opinions on the following:
- Should the third adventure slot be restricted to those actively updating?
- If so, what is an acceptable level of update activity to allow for a third slot?
- How would this activity be gauged? Should this run on an honor system or rigid monitoring?
- How would removing the third slot for those that cease to update at the expected level of activity work without adding extra strain on their updators?
- How quickly can they earn this third slot back by updating again?
- How likely are you to use your third slot and on what level of activity?
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:11 PM   #2
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Alright time to put in my two cents into this!

- Should the third adventure slot be restricted to those actively updating?

So, I want to preface this that we have about eleven people updating at the moment, two of which aren't actively updating. Of those, four people are updating six+ adventures. That is the bulk of FB. The other 7 are updating between 1 to 4 people. If we had more people updating, even if they only had two or three adventures, it would massively decrease the workload for everyone else.

So, my answer is yes to this question. I'm not saying everyone needs to strive to be like TKF or Emp every month, but that actively updating at least twice a month is healthy for the state of the game. It would allow people to get their adventures moving at a smooth pace, and would allow people to get through more adventures in a timely manner. A third adventure slot is a feasible reward for doing so.

- If so, what is an acceptable level of update activity to allow for a third slot?

I think hitting the first bi-monthly is a perfectly acceptable requirement. It hits a reward tier for FC rewards, gets you a nice little bonus in bi-monthly, so it feels right to tie it into there.

- How would this activity be gauged? Should this run on an honor system or rigid monitoring?

As stated in my last answer, bi-monthly. It's easy enough to monitor, and wouldn't require honor or rigidity, since it's tied into a pre-existing reward.

- How would removing the third slot for those that cease to update at the expected level of activity work without adding extra strain on their updators?

I feel the best way is to have their adventure frozen. The adventure should be designated at the beginning of their adventure as that updator reward adventure, with a link to the most recent bi-monthly.

- How quickly can they earn this third slot back by updating again?

If they fail to meet bi-monthly rewards, it is frozen until they requalify in the next bi-monthly cycle. That way if they have to take a break due to IRL, if they can just quickly get updates out when they're back, they get the slot back. It's better than having to wait two months.

- How likely are you to use your third slot and on what level of activity?

Definitely will use it, and would respond to it as soon as I get updated unless for unforeseen circumstances.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:14 PM   #3
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I think we are in a position now where we could comfortably absorb the shock of the third adventure slot with regards to updater manpower. I don't think it should be exclusive to those currently updating, with my preference definitely being towards just rescinding it (with some prior notice) in the event our updater activity drops lower.

For the sake of otherwise contributing to the discussion;

- If we are to tie the third adventure slot to updating, I would be loathe to endorse having the qualification be anything beyond 1 adventure. I am personally experiencing that it can be pretty hard to pick up updatees, even when there is a relative glut, and juggling plotlines can be difficult and intensive.

- An honour system should absolutely be preferred. Strict moderation would be possible but I would always err towards having a less heavy handed approach and allowing for community self reporting in the event someone does break trust.

- Feel like it would be pretty simple to just icebox their adventure until the time they re-qualify. It ensures no extra strain while also being something we have precedent for.

- Three updates seems like an acceptable benchmark. it's enough that it does require concerted effort without being excessive.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:35 PM   #4
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Should the third adventure slot be restricted to those actively updating?
I don’t think we need to restrict this to just updaters if there was enough support for this third slot from existing and/or prospective (i.e ready to join in alongside the increase in adventures) updaters

If so, what is an acceptable level of update activity to allow for a third slot?
I’d say the first tier of Bi-monthly (at least five updates per two calendar months) is a fairly achievable ‘checkpoint’ for this third slot, if it was implemented for just updaters

How would this activity be gauged? Should this run on an honor system or rigid monitoring?
I’d personally like to be able to trust an honor system but if not we all keep track of things in the Staff Rewards or Bi-monthly threads if one of these could be utilised to keep track of whatever amount of updates were necessary over a given time period

How would removing the third slot for those that cease to update at the expected level of activity work without adding extra strain on their updators?
That third adventure would be frozen until they hit the necessary amount of updates, requiring some kind of communication between updater and updatee (if this is a prolonged period of time, at least)

How quickly can they earn this third slot back by updating again?
Reaching the quota, I suppose - if there was one, of course

How likely are you to use your third slot and on what level of activity?
I’d love to utilise a third slot but I’m also willing to take on 3 or 4 new updatees alongside my solitary one right now (o hai Emp) to help support this third slot for either updaters or the whole community
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:41 PM   #5
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To start off with, let me talking where I personally stand in this discussion. I'm currently in one active adventure, and I don't update. I want to update, but because of the stress of school, life, and the fact that I really should pursue an ADHD diagnosis at some point, I don't trust myself to update consistently. I'm not going to update until I can feel that I can do that.

When discussing this, there's some maths involved and a fairly gentle balance to be made. Giving an extra adventure slot would immediately increase the number of adventures, currently by nine adventures if we give it to updators only. This move, does not inherently, increase the number of updators in the game, so if everyone uses their additional adventure immediately, we might want to make sure that we can actually accept that additional strain.

While the additional updators may come in, they will only actually alleviate this strain if they update more than one adventure. Someone who does updates one adventure and takes their additional slot is fundamentally working at par.

Due to this, I would recommend that if we give the third adventure slot to updators, we require them to update two adventures at an adequate pace. This I think is only fair to ask.

We don't actually need new systems for making sure people are being kosher: this is why we have ZAs. An honor system with flexible monitoring by the ZAs is, I think, the correct move to go with here.

Any additional adventures should be frozen until either they reopen their third slot, or finish another of their adventures.

Getting that slot back should be up to the ZAs. There will have to be a certain amount of time, maybe a month or two, to gauge whether activity is consistent before reinstating it.

I personally don't really update and so the question on whether I would use a third slot is not very relevant, but if it was given to everyone, I would also not likely use it. I have difficulties remembering to reply to my one adventure.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:46 PM   #6
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Just to clarify some of the discussion, what has currently been discussed by the ZAs is that if we were to add a third adventure slot and tied it to those who are updaters, the requirement for unlocking said slot would do so by reaching 5 updates within a bimonthly period. And it would be an honor system of course, where if you are unable to maintain that pace, one of your adventures would be frozen until you are able to continue updating again. Obviously there's a lot to work out, but I just wanted to offer that before people dismiss the idea because they think they can only update so many people at once.
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Old 10-25-2020, 10:37 PM   #7
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Can't write up much at the moment, on phone, but largely in agreement with Connor here.

I'm not really in a position to be an updator currently, though I'd like to do so at some point when I'm better able.
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Old 10-25-2020, 11:26 PM   #8
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Should the third adventure slot be restricted to those actively updating?

Yes.

In regards to the follow-up questions, if the third Adventure slot is tied to meeting Bimonthlies, then I likely will not make use of it since I don't trust myself to always keep up consistently, especially once I return to work full-time (which may be fairly soon). As I've said before I'm comfortable currently with two Adventures and two Updatees as a sort of "equivalent exchange", and have no intention to take on any more of the latter at this time, as I know my limits and don't wish to test further by risking burnout.
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Old 10-26-2020, 04:45 AM   #9
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I think we could safely run a trial period of three slots without overcomplicating things with the third one by limiting to "active updaters" and tying it to an arbitrary number of bimonthly updates. Poll shows most of us are willing to take on more people anyway; I'd say just keep it simple and give it a try for a while.
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Old 10-26-2020, 05:09 AM   #10
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I think the biggest boon from this change would be if more people try their hand at updating because of it, thus alleviating the pressure on existing updaters.

I don’t think it really matters if members update at a par, or even update just one adventure for the two they are adventuring in. There are updaters here who are more than willing to pick up the deficit – for me, I quite simply just prefer updating over adventuring.

I think the equivalent exchange philosophy would work great if adopted more widely and if most people had a 2:1 or 2:2 adventuring-updating ratio, then updaters would feel less pressured to take 5+ people on at a time. For the record I believe there should always be room for people in FB who prefer not to update at all, but I think it's only fair we ask them not to take up three slots while not picking anyone up themselves.
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandaa View Post
Just to clarify some of the discussion, what has currently been discussed by the ZAs is that if we were to add a third adventure slot and tied it to those who are updaters, the requirement for unlocking said slot would do so by reaching 5 updates within a bimonthly period. And it would be an honor system of course, where if you are unable to maintain that pace, one of your adventures would be frozen until you are able to continue updating again. Obviously there's a lot to work out, but I just wanted to offer that before people dismiss the idea because they think they can only update so many people at once.
Why ask the question at all then if you guys already have come to a consensus on what you want? I genuinely don't believe "update 2 adventures" is genuinely that much of an ask personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emp View Post
I think the biggest boon from this change would be if more people try their hand at updating because of it, thus alleviating the pressure on existing updaters.

I don’t think it really matters if members update at a par, or even update just one adventure for the two they are adventuring in. There are updaters here who are more than willing to pick up the deficit – for me, I quite simply just prefer updating over adventuring.

I think the equivalent exchange philosophy would work great if adopted more widely and if most people had a 2:1 or 2:2 adventuring-updating ratio, then updaters would feel less pressured to take 5+ people on at a time. For the record I believe there should always be room for people in FB who prefer not to update at all, but I think it's only fair we ask them not to take up three slots while not picking anyone up themselves.
I would actually much rather prefer we don't have people who are updating 4, 5, 6+ adventures. Often times FB does have to rely on those people to keep the game moving, but it's only a matter of time until for one reason or another those people either cannot continue updating at that pace or they are no longer around. Then we're in a pickle, because even if they've completed adventures, those players are still around.

This is part of the reason we have had wild swings of activity in the past, usually because real life obligations get in the way of updating. I'd rather prefer a more consistent system with people updating less than simply expecting some people to just continue to pick up adventures.

Something to also consider when we're discussing this is that, eventually, we're going to get new people coming into FB. We might be able to handle the additional stress that this will put on the system, but we might not be able to handle both. I think it's important to future proof this system so that if people wish to obtain an additional adventure, they are giving more in return, personally.

We basically need to insulate the system to account for things such as general activity trends, new players, and people leaving.
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:56 AM   #12
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I think a problem that is not really being considered is that while it is impressive and worth commending a select few people updating so many players can leave other updaters struggling to meet these kinds of quotas. I am more than confident in my ability to update many people, but at the moment I struggled to even meet 5 bimonthly updates because the few updatees I do have aren't as active as others (through no fault of their own, of course). I know the obvious answer is "well pick someone else up then!" but I've been sat twiddling my thumbs for ages waiting for someone else to pick up.

I know for one I'd be mighty rankled if I suddenly lost an adventure slot through no real fault of my own.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:20 AM   #13
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I do think that is also an important caveat I didn't think of. We don't want to create a system where we are assigning major consequences, unintentionally I believe mind, to updatee activity. For example, if you're only updating one person, you need that person to reply 5 times in two months. That's definitely not unheard of for sure, but that may get rankled for any number of reasons that are outside of the updator's control.

There is definitely a possibility that this may lead to unintended pressures on updatees and honestly even harassment in worse case scenarios. To a certain extent, my requirement is very similar: updating two adventures at a decent pace will also probably qualify you for bimonthlies, but it does have that extra breathing room of "Yes, I am actually updating regularly, but my updatees are just not replying often."
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:58 AM   #14
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Yeah part of the reason it's inherently harder for me to make Bimonthlies is bc I've been only Updating 1-2 people, and decided to take on a second Updatee half bc my first went on a bit of a hiatus (through no fault of his own). I'm perfectly content to wait for him to reply to his own Adventure before picking mine back up, and don't want to pressure either way.
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:18 AM   #15
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Right so first and foremost for basically any rule where we have to set monitoring we obviously would be willing to make exceptions on the sort of basis where it is by no fault of that person's own that they were not able to meet that criteria. As Emi already pointed out, ZAs exist for a reason and before the hammer dropped the first thing that would happen would be the ZAs of the zones that person was updating in checking to see what updatee activity level looked like. We're not proposing "go find another updatee immediately because your 1/2 hasn't posted in a month", only "if your 1/2 updatees posts even semi-regularly, an update every week and a half will keep you afloat".
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:13 PM   #16
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Fair enough. That answers my only genuine point of concern regarding that system that isn't wrapped up with ideas of balance and numbers. Out of the people who had previously suggested it, it just hadn't been brought up.
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