09-16-2012, 01:52 PM | #26 |
Banned
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Next quiz:
"In Western societies today, big business is a persecuted minority group." Oh ho, that's rich! I like that phrasing. Quite amusing. "The authority of parent over child, husband over wife, learned over simple is an inherent part of reasonably ordered human society (even if it should be limited because of its potential for abuse)." Very true. "Vigorous social authority—embodied in the family, church, and other mediating institutions—is a bedrock of the good society." Couldn't be anything but true. Unfortunately, this quiz is not currently rendering results.... |
09-16-2012, 01:53 PM | #27 |
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Oh, this is interesting.
It would appear that I am a Left-Libertarian. |
09-16-2012, 02:04 PM | #28 | |
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In the meantime, here's a sample: Highest Priority Principle: Freedom of Individual Choice/AKA Free Agency Exception: When the choice is harmful to another citizen, or to society in general (in order words, a question of morality) Last edited by unownmew; 09-16-2012 at 02:15 PM. |
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09-16-2012, 02:20 PM | #29 |
The Path of Now & Forever
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I got ERROR LOADING YOUR PAGE for my results.
Does that mean I win? |
09-16-2012, 02:48 PM | #30 | |||
Archbishop of Banterbury
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EDIT the first: Oof, just noticed this; Quote:
1. Either a system of values is entirely unarbitrary, or it contains at least one arbitrary element. 2. A system of values that contains at least one arbitrary element cannot be held as a perfect system of values. 3. Any element that exists exclusively as the whim of the creator of said system is an arbitrary element. 4. Any element that does not rely on the whim of the creator of said system was reached independantly of the whim of that creator. 5. Therefore any perfect system of values cannot contain any element that cannot be reached independantly of the whim of the creator of said system. Which basically means even if there is a God and he created a perfect system of values, believing in him is entirely unnecessary for reaching it.
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Last edited by Concept; 09-16-2012 at 04:38 PM. |
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09-16-2012, 04:24 PM | #31 |
Not sure if gone...
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09-16-2012, 09:29 PM | #32 | ||
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I could expound upon this if you so desire. But, back to your original question: "You must have some view on what powers it is an isn't appropriate for any government to wield. You mentioned federal government "protecting citizens from some few gross appropriations by the states", which suggests that there are certain things you don't believe even the state governments should be allowed to decide, and you must have some way independant of the constitution of working what they should and shouldn't be able to decide - if there wasn't, there'd be no way of deciding what goes in a constitution to start with. How would you go about putting together a new constitution? What things would your ideal constitution allow a government to do or not do? And most importantly; What principle(s) is behind these choices? And if more than one principle, give us a way of determining which take precedence over which when they inevitably conflict." After a bit of thought, I've been able to determine the actual highest principles: 1. Self Government/Government by the People 2. Morality, Justice, and Safety 3. Personal Choice/Limited Government 4. Responsible and Honest Government So, what powers are inappropriate for a government to touch? Any powers that have not been granted it by the people through it's Constitution. Where something conflicts with the powers a government has been granted, and any social goal or political design desired by the government or the people, the government has no authority, unless the people amend it to provide for such power. No government has power to constrict the people beyond that which they allow it, and no government has the authority to govern over a people who reject it. -Powers retained by the people under the first principle are: Bearing arms, petitioning for a redress of grievances, a republican/democratic form of government, the ability of any citizen to vote, and hold public office, and to amend their Constitution, and a Government that adheres to it's Constitution. Within any powers granted to the government, it's second responsibility (after ensuring it is a government of the people), is the safety and morality of the society it governs, as well as the establishment of justice accordingly. Within such constraints, government has all "necessary and proper" power over the preservation of morals within society, all "necessary and proper" power to protect the nation from aggression, foreign or domestic, and all "necessary and proper" power to prosecute and penalize criminals according to the law, as set forth by the people. This also includes morality in criminal punishment, such as prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment, and unreasonable searches and seizures. -Powers granted to the government by this principle are: taxation, raising an army, declaring war, hiring officers of the law, establishing courts, codifying criminal action and punishment, and codifying basic morality (defining marriage, don't kill, don't adulterate, don't abuse others, don't steal, don't slander, don't assault, prohibiting slavery and discrimination by age, religion, gender, and race, business ethics etc.) These next two are more guiding principles of how government should be set up as, by the people, rather than telling what a government can and can not do. Personal Choice and Limited Government should be the key goal of a peoples' Constitution. It is the people's choice how much power a government should have over morality, but ideally, strong moral values should be encouraged through the government's laws, and power granted to government to make such laws. Where morality and personal choice do not conflict however, as a rule, more power should be granted to the people, than to the government. This limitation of the government, protects the people from future oppression by the government, and it is wise to prevent any special interest parties (like religion, business, or unions), from having any direct say in how government is run. Rather, let the citizens, independently of their various factions, choose where their government goes. Powers retained by the people should include: honest speech and press, property ownership, peaceable assembly, religion and worship, free enterprise and trade, travel, pursuit of happiness/dreams/goals, and all minor freedoms of choice. Responsible and Honest Government, should also be a key goal of a constitution. Methods to prevent a government from becoming corrupted in the future, and usurping the power of governance from the people, should be prevalent in a constitution. Assurances that public officers will be honest and true to their word (via impeachment and election), should be included, as well as codifying ethics to be followed while in office. Mandates on government should include: impeachment, frequent elections, election of all major public offices, codified ethics, swears to uphold and follow the constitution, separate branches of government, checks and balances in power, interdependency of branches, federal government, federal checks and balances, and federal interdependency. Edit; Edited some stuff. Last edited by unownmew; 09-16-2012 at 10:26 PM. |
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09-16-2012, 10:24 PM | #34 | |
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No matter what one does, those little unbalances will always occur. That doesn't mean they are not equal under the law, or born as equal humans, nor does it mean they are not worthy of equal respect as every other human being. It's just the way society will always balance itself out. Are you like, deliberately on the lookout for things you can try to use against me or something? Here, take a bite: Yes, I support parental authority over a child while the child is still being supported by the parents. Families are distinctly patriarchal, have been, and should be, but that doesn't mean the father should have any authority over the mother as a human person, they should be unified in all things. Those who have less merit (for whatever reason) will always be below those who have more merit (for whatever reason), but they are still deserving of equal respect and opportunity and equal citizenship under the law. Last edited by unownmew; 09-16-2012 at 10:36 PM. |
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09-17-2012, 03:37 AM | #36 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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So, I took the first test, and I am a social democratic Cosmopolitan.
You are a social democratic Cosmopolitan. 13 percent of the test participators are in the same category and 25 percent are more extremist than you. Spoiler: show The second site says Left Libertarian. Spoiler: show
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Last edited by Emi; 09-17-2012 at 03:45 AM. |
09-17-2012, 07:16 AM | #37 | |
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Protip: Political Compass is bloody useless. Do not use it or take its opinion particularly seriously. It's very old and not well written. A group of my more politically minded friends and I have noted this for years. Over the last five or so years I've verged through various centre left/left lib positions.
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Having now finished the test, I got Authoritarian Socialist. Frankly this is not remotely true. That said, I think this test (which I remember doing before but don't remember my result) is better than the PC. I never have much time for these sorts of tests but it's not bad. So much abuse of phrasing though. So very much. |
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09-17-2012, 08:20 AM | #38 | |
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People who get better education get better jobs. People who work less get less money. The severely mentally handicapped will not attain social or business success. Police officers have authority over others. Legislators have authority over others. The President has authority over others. The Supreme Court has authority over laws. Teachers have authority over their students. Business owners have authority over their employees. The Principle has authority over the Vice Principle, and the teachers, and the students. The Police Chief has authority over the other police officers. The Fire Chief has authority over the other firemen. Managers have authority over the people they manage at work. Team leaders have authority over the rest of the team. The people have authority over their government. Those who choose to follow directions choose to place someone in authority over themselves. Doctors have authority over Nurses, and people. A Driver has authority over all those riding in their car. A Property owner has authority over their property. Senior care-givers have authority over seniors. Customers have authority over businesses they hire. The Courts have authority over criminals. In Prisons, social dominance appears. Generals have authority over footsoldiers. The Commander-in-chief has authority over all armed services. All military has a chain of command where officers have authority over others. When you get drunk, or high, you choose to remove from yourself authority over yourself for a period of time. Now, tell me again what you said about a free society? Get used to it, equal outcome is not a free society, and a meritocracy (the freest form of free society) provides for people of merit to have positions of authority. Last edited by unownmew; 09-17-2012 at 08:24 AM. |
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09-17-2012, 08:27 AM | #39 |
Foot, meet mouth.
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Equal opportunity and equal outcome are completely different things. Doctors have authority over Nurses because Nurses or Interns chose to be mentored by them. In any case, your entire argument loses what little water it held when you chose prisons, of all places, as your ideal society.
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09-17-2012, 08:30 AM | #40 |
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> The severely mentally handicapped will not attain social or business success.
That's offensive, and just plain wrong. As well, extremely insulting to me personally. |
09-17-2012, 08:32 AM | #41 |
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Actually UM's diatribe there isn't bad. If one believes in the concept of a meritocracy, you've got to have equal opportunities (currently lacking in America) and the ability to take leaps of faith. However, it is a mistake to believe that a lack of government intervention will lead to a meritocracy. America has never been a meritocracy both because of a lack of equality of opportunities and because of a lack of intervention at the highest level. When large companies can destroy so much of the society around them, there's no hope.
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09-17-2012, 09:51 AM | #42 | ||
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Also, prisons are a necessary institution in a free society. I never said prisons themselves were ideal societies, neither do I agree that Hospitals and Businesses are ideal societies, but simply institutions that present themselves within a free society. Now you're just grasping at straws. Quote:
Please list for me one vegetable person who's attained social or business success. I was not referring to adaptable handicaps like schizophrenia, ADHD, or AS, and while I may be incorrect about autism, I doubt it. |
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09-17-2012, 10:07 AM | #43 |
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A vegetative state is not quite the same as a mental health issue. While there are of course some mental health issues which affect a person's capacity to succeed, many do not, and many that are extremely profound can be in evidence of people who are successful in their own ways.
I have worked with quite a few people with autism and similar handicaps. While there were individuals who were not particularly likely to make a great deal of money or power, some had great promise. In general, provided that certain provisions are made, people with severe mental health issues can contribute positively to society. There is no reason why someone with severe autism could not conceivably rise to become a CEO in medical terms. However, because of social stigma, this is difficult to imagine happening. Also remember that one person's definition of success is not the same as another's. I personally would not be unhappy if at the end of my life I was not wealthy. I would want to have made a positive difference to the world and had an impact on society, though. No reason why a guy with Downs Syndrome can't do that. Similarly, a guy with severe autism requiring constant care could happily invent a revolutionary device or make some other fantastic contribution to society. |
09-17-2012, 10:35 AM | #44 |
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Touche`
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09-17-2012, 12:04 PM | #45 |
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UM just listed a whole bunch of reasons why he believes a husband has authority over his wife, and essentially just proved he has sexist and backwards ways of thinking. And no one is pointing it out.
I'm not arguing it though because I'm done caring
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09-17-2012, 12:10 PM | #46 |
beebooboobopbooboobop
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Yeah, why hasn't anyone pointed it out? Don't you people realize that pointing out the beliefs that we don't agree with will get him to change his mind?
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09-17-2012, 12:33 PM | #47 | |
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You are incredibly weak-willed when it comes to no longer reading his posts. ^_^; Come on, Deo. For your own sake, put the guy on block and do not, I repeat do not then click "View Post" to view his posts. Just put him on block and completely ignore his posts. You clearly aren't up to the task without the block list so just use it and let's be done with this. Please. You are letting him troll you far too easily.
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09-17-2012, 12:35 PM | #48 |
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More or less, I know UM's kind of offensive, but I just don't care what he thinks at this point, that's not part of the discussion at large though.
took the tests, this is what i got You are a social democratic Cosmopolitan. 13 percent of the test participators are in the same category and 36 percent are more extremist than you. I'm too lazy to get the chart working, but 46% Cosmopolitan 53% Secular 23% Visionary 26% Anarchist 33% Communistic 19% Militaristic 39% Anthropocentric is what I got, seems a little bit right, though I do see the concerns, I don't see myself as an anarchist or communist at all really. http://www.politicalcompass.org/face...5.75&soc=-3.85 yeah, sounds a bit weird here too, but the questions weren't quite as bad as the first one. did the other 2 tests, was a libertarian liberal or some shit, but those seemed more accurate. The point is that some of these poll questions are pretty bad, but it is somewhat accurate sometimes. |
09-17-2012, 01:14 PM | #49 | |
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Having authority does in no way automatically make the other person inferior, thus, no sexism. Husband and Wife should be unified in all things, 100% given to each other. This is what I believe, and what my religion believes. They are equal as human beings, but each have different roles. Having different roles does in no wise make them unequal. Here, take a gander. Last edited by unownmew; 09-17-2012 at 01:20 PM. |
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09-17-2012, 01:38 PM | #50 | |
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There's no point in arguing this. None whatsoever. And you know... I think Talon is right. I'm done. I've held out because I felt it mean, but for my own sake, I'm blocking you. I come to debate every now and then just to see what's going on and talk about things, but when I see your posts, I'm incredibly weak willed to resist responding nearly every time. So, I'm done. Sorry.
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