08-08-2016, 05:33 PM | #1 |
時の彼方へ
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It's Princess Diancie time!
So here's the deal: I've wanted a good OU team for a long time. But I suck at team building! ^^; That's why I'd like your help in creating a good team centered around one of my favorite Pokémon, Diancie. Spoiler: show
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08-08-2016, 05:45 PM | #3 |
Insanity
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Diancie is a fantastic mega who holds a serious mixed threat. With Moonblast and Diamond Storm she has very few hard counters, and even less when she runs Earth Power. I personally suggest running 88/168/252 for offenses with Naive being your best nature. Also totally slap on protect. You need protect to garuntee mega.
Good options with her include Heatran who basically checks almost all of her counters. RH Tangroeth is a fantastic physical wall atm due to hard walling most of the major physical threats and has regenerstor recovery. Both Keldeo and Tornadus-T are great offensive options, with Torny-T acting as a great pivot. Landorus-T is great too as he can set up hazards and pivot. Washtom is a great defensive pivot and WoW is always a fantastic choice. Also the Lati twins. Latios is the best offensive defogger in the tier while Latias is a great support choice. I also heavily suggest running Scarf Excadrill or another haed hitting physical attacker.
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08-08-2016, 05:55 PM | #4 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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What does 88 / 168 hit? Usually when you go mixed one of the important things is that your investment counts. 4 at least OHKOs Mega CharX.
Mega Metagross, Heatran, and Specially Defensive Excadrill are by far and away the biggest threats Diancie can face in an OU match. It's a good idea to use something that can consistently come in on them and KO them with ease. Volcanion is amazing for this job and for its ability to check other threats as well, thanks to its typing and Water Absorb. Steam Eruption will do massive damage to any of them on the switch-in and Flamethrower / Fire Blast will roast them. Special Walls are also an issue, along with Choice Scarf Pokemon. You'll probably want some hazard supports as Megas typically do. Garchomp or Jirachi fill this role well. Talonflame can use Clefable as set-up bait and likes that Diancie bounces hazards. You could use Staraptor but it lacks a resistance to Moonblast. Past that, I'm out of ideas.
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08-08-2016, 05:56 PM | #5 |
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For Diancie, normally you take Earth Power and then Protect, but some people bluff Protect and instead take Rock Polish. And because you're using Mega Diancie, as many steel switch ins as you can is important, so take Milotic for sure. The rest might be useful but don't form a nice core so put them on hold
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08-08-2016, 06:07 PM | #6 |
時の彼方へ
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(Post written before Emi replied, after Lil'twick replied.)
I was throwing a team together as you guys got in the first replies. I made a substitution (swapped out Togekiss for Heatran) because you're absolutely right about how good Heatran would be at answering the majority of Diancie's counters. I want to see how Magnezone works (I have precious little experience using one), so I tossed him on here. And Terrakion flew on just 'cause I wanted a physical answer to Clefable (Iron Head) and Blissey (Close Combat) that wasn't Jirachi for a change. Like I said, everything's up for debate except for Diancie herself. Here's the current set: Spoiler: show Zero idea about their cohesion as I haven't taken them out for a test spin yet. Immediate thoughts, incorporating information from Emi's and roto's replies as well:
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08-08-2016, 06:10 PM | #7 |
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Consider this thread a sandbox. Feel free to copy-paste text from above and make changes. (Make the changes obvious with bold or colored font too. Makes it really easy for me to see what has been changed.) Feel free to copy-paste other non-Talon people's information too. Consider it a sandbox. Consider it a clay sculpture and we're all sat at the table within arm's reach of it. Feel free to mold it however. Everyone can discuss what they think works and what doesn't.
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08-08-2016, 06:18 PM | #8 |
The Uncultured One
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Just a slight personal thought here, but four of those are weak to Ground, two doubly, and Milotic seems to be the only vaguely reasonable answer you have to it. Is that going to be enough, or should you cut down on the Ground weaknesses a bit more? Yes I know there's Air Balloons but I'm still not massively sold on this team being able to cover Ground.
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Spoiler: show |
08-08-2016, 07:15 PM | #9 |
時の彼方へ
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Latest iteration of the team, courtesy of Discord suggestions. Changes in bold blue:
Princess Diancie (Diancie) @ Diancite Ability: Clear Body EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SpAtk / 252 Spe Naive Nature - Diamond Storm - Moonblast - Earth Power - Protect Euphrates (Slowbro) (M) @ Leftovers Ability: Regenerator EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD Bold Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Scald - Slack Off - Psyshock - Fire Blast Rangeet (Landorus-Therian) @ Rocky Helmet Ability: Intimidate EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe Impish Nature - Earthquake - Stealth Rock - U-turn - Stone Edge Tatsumaki (Staraptor) (F) @ Choice Scarf Ability: Reckless EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Brave Bird - Close Combat - Double-Edge - U-turn A-135 (Magnezone) @ Air Balloon Ability: Magnet Pull EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe - Thunderbolt - Magnet Rise - Flash Cannon - Hidden Power [Fire] Porthos (Terrakion) @ Lum Berry Ability: Justified EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Rock Polish - Stone Edge - Close Combat - Iron Head Current concerns/problems:
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08-08-2016, 07:21 PM | #10 |
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So one idea is going Band raptor and scarf terrak. That lets terrak get hits quick while staraptor chunks even harder. The other option of course is replacing terrak with something completely different. My first thought for a good terrak replacement is Breloom because grass resist water and ground, two types that diancie doesn't like (thought its not very bulky) while keeping the fighitng coverage. Other options would be probably other offensive grass types for diancie synergy defensively or fire or fighting types to synergize with diancie offensively
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08-08-2016, 09:23 PM | #11 |
時の彼方へ
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Latest version of the team:
Spoiler: show Changelog: - swapped out Magnezone - swapped in Serperior - gave Terrakion Choice Scarf So far, this is much better. Magnezone really wasn't pulling his weight -- a slow Electric is pretty bad in terms of placing offensive pressure on enemy Waters or Flyers, and while Magnet Pull is theoretically awesome for trapping Diancie's worst enemies, it's not really necessary. :o Turns out that Terrakion's Close Combat tends to be more than enough to dispense with most Heatran, while Serperior's ContraryLeafStorm-boosted HP:Fires are doing ample damage to things that are susceptible to Fire. This might change as I get higher up the ladder and Steels like Skarmory and Ferrothorn start to become more common, but for right now, boxing Magnezone was the right choice. If he is a good fit for OU, he's certainly not a very good fit at the bottom rung of the ladder. Serperior applies interesting pressure. No one wants to lose to Leaf Storm spam, so players table their plans and implement emergency countermeasures. That's how you play the game, ofc, but the consequence for my team is that I often times get to remove some key threats to Diancie and/or Slowbro and/or Terrakion, and all because the player is too preoccupied with throwing answers at my Serperior to realize that he's tossing away his victory conditions in favor of putting out an immediate fire in front of him. Can't say he's wrong, it's just ... Serperior is doing its job of applying pressure. Again, this is something I can't necessarily expect to last once I get higher on the ladder. But for right now, it's working. One weird thing right now though is ... I feel like the rest of the team is starting to come together (which is good!) ... but I feel like the fifth wheel right now is none other than the princess herself, Diancie. ^^; While the team we're building might be a good team, I'm kind of worried it's not really a good Mega Diancie team. Which is weird and all, seeing as it was birthed by our collective efforts to put things on a team which synergize well with her. I dunno. It's something to look into as I keep going. If at any point though I feel the answer to the question, "Would this team be better if I replaced Mega Diancie with a different mega?" is "Yes," then I feel like we've messed up somewhere. I dunno. Maybe that's not the right way to think about it, I'm not completely sure.
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08-10-2016, 08:49 AM | #12 |
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Status update: been losing a lot recently. Was 15-3, am now 18-10. The team has a lot of problems against Pokémon and strategies I keep seeing, hence the losses.
Weavile: this little fuck is a huge thorn in my side. The Focus Sash Ice Shard variants shit all over my Choice Scarf Staraptor. The Life Orb variants make life absolute hell for Slowbro. That's actually the bigger problem. I can deal with killing Weavile other ways besides speed war hax (e.g. Choice Scarf), but it's the utter lack of anything at all on the team that is a safe switch in that sucks. Staraptor, Serperior, and Landorus are all weak to Ice, Slowbro is weak to Dark, and Diancie is made of glass. Only Terrakion can eat both Dark hits and Ice ones, and even then he's hilariously 2HKOed by Icicle Crash, meaning that an Icicle Crash + Ice Shard is still putting him in a really tough spot. Not to mention that once I lose Terrakion elsewhere in the fight, Weavile suddenly becomes their win condition. That's what's been happening in a lot of my losses: Terrakion does his job, he KOes one or more enemies, but eventually he falls, that's life, that's supposed to happen, and then Weavile comes in and is like "HEY GAIZ! " and wrecks house. Putting Heatran back on the team might be a good answer. Flame Body's a nice deterrent to physical attackers. He's 4x resistant to Ice. He's neutral to Dark. Even when the Weavile have Low Kick, Flame Body's still there at least to give them pause. But who would he replace? Replacing Serperior's kinda out of the question, as the whole reason for adding Serperior to the squad was "I HAVE NO WATER ANSWERS! T_T" and Heatran ain't exactly helping in that department. He could replace Slowbro, but then I'd be without my physical wall. Not to mention that Slowbro's moveset is a lot more diverse and generally helpful than Heatran's. Really, I think that Weavile is revealing what I've suspected since a couple of nights ago: this team is in need of 2-3 replacements, not just one. It might even come down to, "We keep Diancie and one other team member but the entire rest of the team has to go." Stall: While it's less common to see the ever-successful stall at the bottom of the ladder, I have seen it occasionally -- and have always lost to it. Where Hyper Offense tends to muscle past Stall, this team can't. And because it can't, and because it lacks any other answers to deal with Stall -- no healing, no entry hazard removal, no anything of the sort -- my loss is guaranteed. I'm very familiar with Starmie, with how he operates. I've used one competitively from 1999 all the way until early 2014 when I retired him in favor of Greninja. While I still prefer Greninja (and am still waiting for Alola to see the frog unbanned; have a heart, Smogon), Starmie makes up for his lack of punching power with the ever-useful Rapid Spin. One of the reasons he fell off my team in '14 was precisely because no one was setting entry hazards anymore. This appears to have changed in 2016. Entry hazards appear to be back in full force. I've had numerous opponents not only lay three layers of Spikes and Stealth Rocks but even lay at least one layer of other hazards, be it one layer of Toxic Spikes or the single-application Sticky Web. Litwick mentioned Latios and Defog earlier. I have toyed around with a Latios running Defog, Memento, Draco Meteor, and Psyshock on another team. It's quite possible I'll bring him in here. But I might bring Starmie back too. Perhaps he'll replace Serperior. I dunno, 'cause ... Electrics: Surprisingly, this team is very weak to Electrics. Not weak to electricity. Weak to Electric-type Pokémon. Whether it's Heat Wave or HP:Ice, time after time my team's nominally "best" anti-Electric answers (Landorus, Serperior) are losing to them. Staraptor and Slowbro die to Electric itself. Diancie's made of glass. So again, this leaves us with just Terrakion to pick up the pieces and try to forge a path to victory for me. And he just can't do it. 'Cause he's defensively weak himself. He can't keep taking HP:Ices or Thunderbolts. That's not a suitable answer. Landorus-T is one of my weaker contributions thus far. I can never lead with him (because Weavile), his Stealth Rocks are almost always instantly Defogged away, and his attacks are surprisingly weak. While he was a cool suggestion in theory, I feel like he might be one of the 2-3 Pokémon I mentioned earlier that is going to get replaced come teambuilding's end. He chokes to Ice too hard, and Ice is everywhere. Rotom-Wash is an especially huge pain in the ass because of Levitate and no Mold Breaker. Huge defense, an immunity to Ground instead of a weakness, and STAB Hydro Pump means he's a solid, solid answer to Landorus. So while I think Landorus may have to go ... who would be his replacement? Summary of where we stand
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08-10-2016, 09:21 AM | #13 |
時の彼方へ
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I'm pretty awful at team building as I've said, hence why I'm here requesting help, but here's what I came up with in response to the above issues:
Slowbro's been replaced with Azumarill, Landorus has been replaced with Heatran, Staraptor's been replaced with Latios, and Serperior's been replaced with Starmie. Azumarill should be a pretty helpful answer to Weavile, as should Heatran (who I gave Flame Body over Flash Fire). I'm going to miss Staraptor, but Azumarill is nominally there to make up for his missing physical might while Latios is now here to offer some much-needed momentum shifts with Defog and Memento. Helping Latios clear the field of entry hazards is Starmie, with his Rapid Spin. Electrics are still a pretty big problem though. :\ Slowbro for Azumarill doesn't change the balance, nor does Serperior (Heat Wave Zapdos) for Starmie (generic electric attacks). Latios (HP:Ice) is better than Staraptor (general electric attacks), but not by much. And Heatran isn't meant to take electric beatings any more than Terrakion is. So I dunno. I'll probably take it out for one or two test spins before anyone gets a chance to reply, but I'll still ask you now: thoughts?
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08-10-2016, 09:21 AM | #14 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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While it doesn't help your Electric weakness, Keldeo can help both against Weavile and against Stall. It's still rather frail though.
EDIT: Heatran can deal with Electrics if its specially defensive.
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08-10-2016, 09:27 AM | #15 | |
時の彼方へ
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Quote:
Haven't battled yet, btw, and probably won't get to now for a couple of hours. So keep those suggestions coming, to help me avert crisis and more pointless losses! orz ^^; EDIT: Got one battle in. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-414308032 I won it 4-0, but it was pretty perilous. The team is definitely weak against dedicated rain teams. Azumarill came in clutch (because it laughs at both Politoed and Kingdra), but Swift Swim Kabutops isn't fucking around. The Stone Edge miss was invaluable; while setting up Belly Drum was ensured (barring a crit), getting to sweep his entire team afterwards was not. Getting to be at 4x Attack and 75% HP was pretty rad. EDIT 2: Got a second battle in. Won it 4-0. :o http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-414316114 I get off to a terrible, the-most-nubbish-of-noobish starts. Forgetting Magic Bounce, misprediction, a whole smorgasbord of awfulness. I end up having to sacrifice Starmie just to a) convince my opponent I am a scrub so that b) he doesn't do anything crazy and I can get a hold of the reins to this match once again. Once I do that, I begin to take control back, bit by bit. My team had a really great match-up against his. Heatran was anathema to Skarmory, Amoongus, and Weavile. Azumarill was great against Weavile and Chansey. Azumarill, Terrakion, and Diancie all laughed at Chansey. (Some more than others, as we can see from Terrakion's paralysis.) So yeah. Bit by bit by bit, I dismantled his team and left him with no options. I have no idea where I would fit it on (or even if I need to right now), but a healing option would be nice. Paralysis on sweepers like Terrakion and Azumarill sure does suck. But no one on the team currently can learn Heal Bell or Aromatherapy afaik, and even if they could I'm not sure if it's worth the slot to teach it.
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08-10-2016, 11:35 AM | #16 |
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Mini update. Since implementing the new team, my score's gone from 18-10 to 23-11. The one game I lost, I was forced to concede to my opponent two turns of Calm Mind on a Raikou.* Every other game, I've won. One was 1-0, one was 3-0, two were 4-0, and this latest one would've probably been 4-0.
I won't say the team is "good" in the sense that it's great. It feels like patchwork. As I said on Discord, it feels held together by tape and Elmer's glue. I have little doubt that once I muscle past the 1300s on into the 1400s, the team won't help me rise much farther and I'll have to make some new changes. But in the sense that the team is helping me to deal with the Weavile plague of lower OU, it is most definitely "good." Good enough to ensure that every time my opponent has had a Weavile I have won the match. For now, I'm going to hold off on replacing Azumarill with Keldeo because I'm pleased with Azumarill's performance. She deals decent damage unboosted, colossal damage boosted (of course), and the threat of the latter is a wonderful deterrent to opponents. I get to play a lot of mind games thanks to the threat of Belly Drum being on the set. Opponents wonder if it's there, and they wonder if I am going to use it or not. Many times when they incorrectly predict that I will use it, I am able to punish them with Play Rough or Knock Off. It's nice. Heatran's also pretty rad. I'm old school biased against legendary spam and I have a personal beef with Heatran dating back to Gen 4 OU, but I've mostly softened on both these points and I'm enjoying using him so far. Fire/Steel's nice but for the obvious 4x weakness, and the Modest set I'm running packs a surprising punch (as evidenced by the pseudo-OHKO on Gigalith with Flash Cannon). Starmie's probably the weakest of the three new additions, but he's also the one I'm most familiar with, so I feel like I've been able to use him correctly at a lot of key junctures. Sending him out when doing so would force the flow to be switched in my favor and likewise not sending him out when to do so would be to fall for an enemy trap ... * I called that he would CM when he actually Subbed and I used Memento. I then had to switch out to someone else, at which time he used CM. I then broke the sub, at which time he CMed a second time. Basically one poor call that quite literally cost me the entire match. He never had to switch Raikou out again.
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08-10-2016, 04:47 PM | #17 |
I make cryin' babies weep
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So to kinda get used to Mega Diancie I slapped together an offensive team. The original version had Serperior and Lucario instead of Raikou and Scizor, but it wasn't very good and these two work much much better. I'm currently sitting at 1514 with it.
Diancie-Mega @ Diancite Ability: Magic Bounce EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe Naive Nature - Diamond Storm - Moonblast - Protect - Hidden Power [Fire] Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Scarf Ability: Justified EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Hydro Pump - Secret Sword - Scald - Icy Wind Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb Ability: Regenerator EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe Naive Nature - Grass Knot - Hurricane - Heat Wave - Superpower Terrakion @ Focus Sash Ability: Justified EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Stealth Rock - Stone Edge - Close Combat - Taunt Scizor @ Choice Band Ability: Technician EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD Adamant Nature - U-turn - Bullet Punch - Knock Off - Superpower Raikou @ Leftovers Ability: Pressure EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def - Volt Switch - Thunderbolt - Calm Mind - Hidden Power [Ice] So far, I guess what's come of it in terms of teambuilding with Mega Diancie is that Tornadus-T works very well with her. The bird's offensive pressure is insane, and between the two of them, you should be able to rip holes into pretty much any team. Keldeo also works nicely as a switch in against many things that threaten Mega Dia, mainly Heatran, Bisharp, and Scizor. Also, having a bulky Steel pivot is really important, or at least it has been for me when using Mega Diancie. I've been using Scizor, but Jirachi would also pair well with her I feel like. As a whole, I feel like making the team a bit bulkier and have a different lead would work out well, so the only thing I'd really suggest for you is to definitely try out the Diancie / Keldeo / Tornadus-T core (or at least Mega Dia / Torny-T), and invest in a bulky, but offensively capable, Steel type.
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08-11-2016, 11:42 AM | #18 |
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Sparkbeat's team has so much legend spam it makes even 2016 Talon, with his softened stance on legendary use, cry. :'D But that really is the state of Smogon Gen 6 OU: "the new world order Ubers" or "Ubers, Jr." if you like. And so without further ado, I decided to give it a go.
But not before playing a couple more games with the team I concocted yesterday. I went 2-2 or else 3-2, but either way the two losses stung and were a grim reminder that whatever I was using wasn't cutting it. I mean, "you can't beat everyone" on the one hand, true, but one of those losses was a painful loss to a scrub who was making terribad calls -- the sort which sent me plummeting because they occurred on make-or-break turns. And when something like that happens, you've gotta ask the question -- "Are they terrible plays?" And if the answer's no, you gotta look to yourself and to the team. So I decided to answer that by trying out Spark's team. I've played two games so far, one with a copy-paste of his team and one with a few slight alterations. Both games, I won handily. 3-0 or 4-0 for the first, and 4-0 for the second. My Elo is now the unimpressive score of 1348, but for the record this is the highest it's been since we started this experiment, and I only expect it to go up from here given how commanding the wins were. Opponent 1 had: Escavalier, Sylveon, Crobat, Mega Charizard Y, Gastrodon, and ??? Opponent 2 had: Froslass, Shedinja, Mega Sableye, Gengar, Chandelure, and Golurk Changes made to Spark's team: - Diancie: replaced HP:Fire for Earth Power - Tornadus-T: replaced Superpower for U-Turn HP:Fire vs. Earth Power: In the first game, I decided to try out Mega Diancie's HP:Fire vs. an Escavalier who was at 92% HP. ... It only brought him down to 18% HP. His item was Leftovers, so no Assault Vest shenanigans. I had been pessimistic about HP:Fire to start with but decided to trust in Spark's instincts. But after seeing how poorly it performed against an Escavalier, I decided that was enough and I was done with testing it out.
Superpower vs. U-Turn: This one's easy:
That's it for now. Two games really isn't enough basis to justify more changes. I really want to give Spark's team a go with as few changes as possible. I trust in his judgment. I just ... strongly disagree with those two move choices. ^^;; Maybe it's a difference in playstyles. And maybe it's a difference in where we are on the ladder. We'll see.
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08-11-2016, 11:49 AM | #19 |
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Wait remind me what Grass Knot hits for Torny-T
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08-11-2016, 12:07 PM | #20 |
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Gastrodon ... Rotom-W (poorly) ... Tyranitar ... Hippowdon ... can't think of much else, but these are all pretty decent checks to a Tornadus otherwise. Two resist Hurricane, three resist Heat Wave, none care about U-Turn ... Gastrodon packs Ice Beam, Rotom-W packs Volt Switch or other Electric attacks, Tyranitar of course has Stone Edge, and Hippowdon ... hmm ... well maybe he shouldn't be on this list as a "check," but he's still a valid target for Grass Knot. :p hahaha
Superpower is almost certainly on Spark's set for Tyranitar (who otherwise sets up Dragon Dance on Tornadus-T), but I'm pretty confident in Grass Knot's ability to put Tyranitar within 2HKO range. I suppose where Spark isn't willing to lose Tornadus in that specific match-up, I would be because of the accessible Scarf Keldeo and Band Scizor switch-ins. If Tyranitar stupidly tries to DD twice, he loses to Grass Knot. If he smartly doesn't and instead OHKOs with Stone Edge, you then switch in Pokémon that will still outspeed, in one fashion or another, and secure the KO. I dunno. We'll see! This team is both a personal and a communal work in progress. We'll all see together what works and what doesn't.
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08-11-2016, 12:19 PM | #21 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 190-226 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It'll 2HKO offensive variants. But bulky variants won't be. 180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 161-192 (39.9 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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08-11-2016, 12:28 PM | #22 |
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Might replace it for Defog then, especially since I can still U-Turn out the first turn he uses DD for either of Keldeo or Scizor.
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08-11-2016, 12:40 PM | #23 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Smart idea!
Except Tornadus doesn't learn Defog. :p
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08-11-2016, 12:57 PM | #24 |
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Me using Grass Knot is completely personal and probably not optimal since it's mainly just because bulky Waters make me shit myself in fear. U-Turn or Taunt is probably better, but it does help if I ever run into a stall team with Quagsire or Gastrodon.
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08-11-2016, 05:30 PM | #25 |
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The only bulky water that should threaten a Torny T is Rotom who literally gets healed by Grass Knot. I mean Gastro maybe but do people really use Gastro anymore?
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