06-30-2015, 11:22 PM | #101 |
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Yeah but I don't agree with that. XD
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06-30-2015, 11:25 PM | #102 |
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Nor do I but I don't see it being something that is going to happen in a majority of cases.
Anyway, I think a lot of the controversy here is stemming from a lack of education on the transitioning process. I would love to provide resources but I really am not sure of any. Would anyone care to contribute something so we can all be on the same page? |
06-30-2015, 11:25 PM | #103 | |
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Anyway, I don't really have not much to add to this discussion. I just wanted to clarify what I meant and was trying to say that we should be careful. I probably should've picked better words, I guess. Anyway, I need a drink because as an Australian, I'm a borderline alcoholic anyway. I'm off to Schumer. |
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06-30-2015, 11:29 PM | #104 | |
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Nobody has to like it, or even to accept it. But shooting the messenger is not cool, and feels immature.
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06-30-2015, 11:31 PM | #105 | |
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06-30-2015, 11:37 PM | #106 | |
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If you're saying, "It's unrealistic to expect a transgender person to remove themselves from their dream job for 1+ years while they undergo sexual reassignment," then for me the discussion shifts away entirely from TG issues to one of workplace entitlement or more generally entitlement. "Should someone receive full pay and benefits from a desk job that they aren't even working?" is a debate that is worth having. In some cases our modern society strongly feels that the answer should be, "Yes," as with maternity leave. In other cases our modern society strongly feels that the answer should be, "No," as with someone who decides to go soul-searching in the Himalayas for a year. I would argue that the soul-searching sabbatical undertaken by many a quarter-life crisis victim is no less important to their immediate and future well-being as is the transgender individual's active quest to achieve satisfaction with their body. Yet I think you'd have to agree with me that I won't find many working-class adults willing to argue that taking time off from society to go soul-searching means you should still deserve full pay and benefits from the last job you held immediately prior to going on your journey. If you can't persuade friends who love and care about you that we're wrong on some principles or ideas that come up quite easily in debate, how on earth do you ever hope to persuade people who despise you or your decisions that they're wrong about far more difficult principles or ideas? This is a good, safe sandbox to start off in. No one here wants to hurt your feelings, and the forum is heavily moderated by friends and friends of friends. This discussion isn't about winning or losing a debate. It's about having an honest conversation about the topic(s) at hand.
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06-30-2015, 11:38 PM | #107 | |
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That seems to be the issue we're facing so I think that might be helpful. Surgery is surgery so I don't think we really need to explain that. |
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06-30-2015, 11:52 PM | #108 | |
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A. If that's the case, I must dissuade you of that mistaken notion immediately.You don't need to reply to this if you don't want to. I wish I didn't have to reply myself, but I do in this case because it would just really bug me otherwise if years later you had this warped view of me as "Talon, the guy who that one time said those off-color things" when it wasn't even me who said them. ... At least not those off-color things. ¬_¬
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06-30-2015, 11:58 PM | #109 |
Foot, meet mouth.
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I am still not understanding how any one particular business can be noticeably hurt by anti-discrimination laws since it applies to every business and it's not like clients can just go "Oh well we'll go to some other company who aren't affected by these laws."
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07-01-2015, 12:52 AM | #110 | |
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07-01-2015, 01:25 AM | #111 | |
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Just did the search myself and there's one pseudo-hit: the word was in Schaden's post that I quote-replied to. But I never brought it up myself nor would I have.
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07-01-2015, 02:17 AM | #112 |
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I would like to add that in the hypothetical John situation employers have some kind of right to direct the looks of employees. It's called a dresscode. Employees need to be representative to the company, it's usually something minor, like enforcing the men to have a clean shave, but can be extended so that John can't just show up in a dress without further doing anything. I'm not saying that John can't show up in a dress eventually, but since transition is usually slow but steady (not a lot of trans-women look like women from the onset), so too should the transition at work be. This requires John and her boss to negotiate on how she'll handle her transition whilst there, they'll have to agree on how she'll handle it. Usually this means that John will still dress like a man whilst she still looks too much like one, and gradually goes more feminine. I don't think it's too much to ask of John to not look like a "freak" (for the lack of a better word) or change overnight while still allowing the change itself to actually happen in a more controlled way.
The anti-discrimination laws should basically enforce those bosses to provide these oppertunities, so that they can't go "Eh, too much trouble I'm just going to fire the bloke." They should NOT give transwomen a carte-blanche on how to dress since cis-women dealing with clients can't show up in, for example, a mini-skirt and T-shirt combo either. They need to look professional. Lastly it's not discrimination if someone isn't capable of doing their jobs anymore. Whilst John shouldn't be fired for being trans, if being trans severly cuts down her job performance that's an entirely sepperate issue and can lead to her being led off. However this has to actually be evaluated in practise rather then just being theorised and firing her "to be safe". Being transgender is a medical condition yes, and on it's own no reason to be fired, but specifics matter. Likewise a person working in a call center ending up being mute or extremely hoarse due to throat cancer or something just isn't capable of holding that job plain and simple. Same with recruiting, it's not discrimination to refuse an immigrant to work in said callcenter if they have a very strong accent. They just do not have the skills for that job in such a case. Sure it's a direct result of being an immigrant, but the reason they are refused is their language skills, not for being an immigrant. tl;dr Companies can ask their employees to appear proffesional so no suddenly turning up in a dress, in return they give John the oppertunity to gradually change and don't fire her without good reason (like a massive drop in job performance). |
07-01-2015, 09:02 AM | #113 |
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@same arguments being used against transgender people are the same employers used against women and gay people in the 60's.
While it looks similar on the surface, it's really not exactly the same. Back then, an employer would know fully well that he was hiring a woman, so if something occurred where he lost potential clients simply because she is a women, then he shouldn't be able to fire her simply for being a woman if her job performance was up to par, since he knew fully well the possible consequences of hiring a woman in that time period. On the topic of gay people, really the other employees and the clientele most likely won't, or shouldn't, know that a man or woman is gay since it's a personal matter. As such, it's hard to possibly lose business or workplace peace from it. If said gay person is going around the office and flirting with other employees, possibly making him uncomfortable, then he's not being fired because he's gay, he's being fired for not being a professional at work, which isn't a reason exclusive to people who are homosexual. In this situation, the employer wouldn't really know about it until the employee was ready to inform their boss of them beginning to transition. As such, the boss would have no chance to evaluate the effect it could have on the work place prior to hiring, because it didn't come up until much later. And unlike being gay, it's both a physical and mental transition. So I'm not trying to say anything like the boss should be able to fire the person for being trans, just that it's a pretty poor comparison to make since its two different situations entirely. And also agree with pretty much everything Selena said. Very good post.
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07-01-2015, 08:18 PM | #114 | |
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Anyway, back to booze I go. |
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03-12-2016, 12:15 PM | #115 | ||
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I'm...actually not sure where I was going with this. lol
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03-12-2016, 12:52 PM | #116 | |
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Suppose a racist uncle who hates blacks. While you might not agree with your uncle's views, you might also modify your behavior when visiting your uncle so as to not trigger him. You might refrain from bringing up blacks in conversation, for instance. You might choose not to engage him in debate if he makes an offhand racist remark. I think it's similar for a lot of LGBTQ matters. A UPNer might privately believe that homosexuality is abhorrent yet refrains from proselytizing the UPN gay community. Another UPNer might believe that gender fluidity is a lot of new age garbage but doesn't want to antagonize members of the community who identify as transgender. Speaking personally, I do not see all TG cases as equivalent -- and on UPN, there are three TG cases I have taken note of that I assess very differently. I doubt I am the only person who does this, either, though others may assess differently from how I do. My point here is, it isn't even enough to say, "Either you accept transgender rights or you do not." I, for example, do accept transgender rights and do believe that there are bonafide cases of people being born in the wrong body. But I also don't universally credit all claims to transgender identity. Which is to say, I think that sometimes you have folks who are genuinely TG and are doing the right thing to not only identify as TG but to also seek appropriate treatments, and then I think there are other times where we have confused youth who mistakenly identify as TG at a time in their lives where they are hugely influenced by their peers, media, pop culture, and thinking behaviors typical of young adults. Even suggesting that someone might mistakenly identify as TG would get me shouted down by a good chunk of the community, so I keep those views to myself. Worse still, I am not an expert in the field and have only armchair assessments to run with. It's not my place to play judge publicly and to decide for all who is "really TG" and who isn't. But it doesn't mean that I, someone who advocates for transgender rights, doesn't privately believe that some people laying claim to a TG identity are doing so recklessly and perhaps erroneously.
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03-12-2016, 01:02 PM | #117 |
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Well that only reason I worded it as such is because I don't like to lay claim that I know what's going on in people's heads. My boyfriend sees me as a woman, but that doesn't mean that everyone does. I'm well aware of that.
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03-12-2016, 02:54 PM | #118 |
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There is plenty of evidence beginning to surface that trans people have bodies and brains that develop differently from their initially assigned gender, different from 'usual. The research is s but scattered but evidence from some studies have suggested theories in which a person's mental gender doesn't equate to their assigned biological gender due to things that happened in the womb, brain developing a different way then the body did and vice versa, lack of crucial hormones or perhaps an over abundance of others, etc.
Here is an interesting study on trans people brain development, for example. While the study showed some very interesting things, it was ultimately inconclusive in some regards in that more research needs to be done, but some of the things proven scientifically backs up the argument for TG people. When I have more time I'll be happy to look for more |
03-12-2016, 03:06 PM | #119 |
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Spoiler: show This diagram has helped tons in a third world country where they are sticking anything LGBTQI related into just sexual orientation. The term hermaphodites has been phazed out in the medical community. The term used officially is intersex, more specifically true intersex, vs pseudo intersex when genetilia is ambiguous, and not defined as one or the other. Talon made a point much earlier in the thread. Gender is a social construct, and as such does not truly exist. It is man made. Gender Identity and expression is what what we are discussing in essence. Moving on to trans right: access to medical care should be number 1 priority. We should have physicians fully trained to handle people thinking about transitioning, people in transition, and people fully transitioned. For many american doctors, it is an afterthought and sometimes not even pronouns can be respected due to legal reasons. Though, you can probably get away with a prior disclaimer "I support your transition, but for legal reasons I must read this letter in your birth gender" which could sting some people, and I feel for them. There are many facets of society that need to change in support and we all need to make the mutual realization that it is not our job to judge one another if we disagree; their human experience hardly influences our own in the grand scheme of things. Each transperson will go through a unique path, and we cannot expect them to be normative of the gender that they are transitioning to, but we can respect them and be 100% supportive. More on the topic: the reason aversion/repulsion happens is that people attempt to picture themselves in the process of, whether it is trying to picture transitioning, or homosexuality or anything that does not fit their norm, and immediately feel repulsed if they lack basic understanding: this is not related to the one perceiving it, and it does not affect them. Yes, there are religious arguments, but at the same time, we have phased out plenty of old world views in favor of progression and inclusion. |
03-12-2016, 03:09 PM | #120 | |
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The problem isn't that we don't have evidence of the sort you've described. The problem is ... well, one of the problems is that not all individuals who present as transgender present with the physical manifestations you're speaking of. A second problem is that, similar to concerns with homosexual identity, the reason for the "born TG vs. chose to be TG" wave-particle duality of current TG discussions is that we're dealing with two very different populations here but labeling them under the same name.
The discussion is further complicated by studies of brains of individuals who identify as heterosexual and comfortable in their assigned gender roles. I've no studies on hand to show you as I'm pulling here from memories of papers I read in 2007, but there are documented studies of men who identify as male who have "female brains," i.e. the physical structures and brain chemistry seen on MRI that you're discussing that we say are associated with womanhood. Is this evidence that gender is a social construct? Is this evidence that gender is fluid? The evidence exists, but the interpretation of it remains contentious and (as far as I am aware) unsettled. Which is not to say that people have not formed their opinions and chosen sides in the debate. Just to say that, academically speaking, the book is not closed shut on this one just yet.
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03-12-2016, 03:18 PM | #121 |
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Are we really taking personal offense at pronouns now? What about the Latin-derived languages where one of their fundamental structures is the division of "male" and "female" words? Should we all just start speaking Lojban?
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03-12-2016, 03:21 PM | #122 |
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No, we respect the pronoun desired by the individual. It cost you nothing to call a person he/she/it/they/ze. The world does not need to be angry at everything, nor is it conforming to things they don't want to accept. Call a transfemale she, she wont be mad, and you wont make her feel uncomfortable. Calling her a he, that could possiblity, and most likely make her cringe, thus making the transperson uncomfortable unnecessary. Your own gender is not affected, and it is something that will not change if you respect other people's wishes.
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03-12-2016, 03:26 PM | #123 | |
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A good guideline is basing ourselves on how the individual feels. We can't quantify it for sure, but objecting for the sake of it being different from what an individual might find as the norm should be no barrier in the decision making process of the person who might decide to transition. |
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03-12-2016, 03:36 PM | #124 | ||
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Caitlyn is biologically, based on her chromosomes, Male by Sex. However, Caitlyn is not a man by gender. She is a woman, who identifies as such. She is male to female transgender, who coincidentally has not fully operated her body to remove her penis. A man is not made by a penis, a man is defined by the gender in which he conforms and participates to. Male/Female =/= Man/Woman |
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03-12-2016, 04:20 PM | #125 |
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@Apost: I think it's also important to add that transgenderism comes in shades aplenty. There is no one true formula. Some folks simply present, some go through with hormones but not surgery, some get surgery to complete the nine yards. I'd ideally fall into the third group if I had my way with things, but that wouldn't be able to happen for a long time due to my parents' (my mom's more so) rigidity on the matter. So essentially it is very important to realize that gender does not go by the body. The problem is we allowed ourselves as a society to use sex and gender interchangeably, mostly the latter being used as a euphemistic term for the former.
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