UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-07-2010, 10:55 AM   #51
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
It's because (back in Gen 1) the fans demanded that GameFreak open up the movepool to more creatures. And so GameFreak gave the fans what they wanted, and that's where we still are standing today 10 years later. Think of it this way:

In the 1990s, only Vileplume could learn Petal Dance. All of the other grass-types were stuck with either Razor Leaf (55 per turn) or Solarbeam (120 per two turns). Once GSC came along, breeding allowed other creatures -- better creatures, from a strictly-speaking metagame point of view -- to learn Petal Dance. And so Vileplume lost one of its major advantages over its fellow grass-types for seeing the light of day in competitive play.

In the 1990s, some Pokemon (like Nidoking) could learn a whole host of elemental moves that didn't seem to fit with it (e.g. Ice Beam, Flamethrower) while others were restricted to pretty much just their personal element and to the universally-accessible Normal-type inventory (e.g. Raichu, who could only learn Electric and Normal-type attacks). Come GSC, that all changed courtesy of breeding and the invention of new moves. Which way did it change? Back then, few were the fans who clamored for creatures to be more like Raichu and less like Nidoking. No, the more numerous were the fans who cried out for the very opposite. And GameFreak delivered. "Hey look! It's a Fire Punching, Ice Punching, Cross Chopping Electabuzz!" (Crystal). "Hey look! My Machamp knows Cross Chop, Rock Slide, Earthquake, *AND* Body Slam thanks to TM ubiquity!" (GS) The more elements your creature has had access to, always and forever, the better he's fared in competitive play. And GSC listened to the fans' short-sighted tunnel vision demands for better breadth of competitive play options instead of realizing that what this would ultimately mean is the death of competitive play as we had known it in the '90s. We didn't know it at the time, but we were about to go from an RBY world where 30+ of the 150 were regularly seen in competitive play to a GSC world in which ~20-30 of 250 were regularly seen, i.e. a lot of oldies no longer made the cut. (e.g. Charizard, who saw a lot of dominance in Pokemon Yellow once they corrected for Ice and Fire's interactions with another and once they gave 'zard access to HM 02, suddenly became endangered in GSC where, despite his excellent movepool and access to Sunny Day, he now had to deal with the ubiquity of Rock Slide everywhere and the fact that Thunder now never ever missed if it went after an opponent in mid-flight. Nidoking, who had been a pretty decent farer in RBY even in spite of Psychic's preeminence, suddenly found himself on the UU list in GSC because of Earthquake's ubiquity + unpredicted rise in popularity, displacing Psychic as the newly most demanded TM. Etc)


Paradoxically, the only way to fix the problem of "Man, competitive play is boring because it's just the same 20 dudes over and over again" is to force those 20 into being less awesome (as compared with their peers) than they currently are. To announce this would be to incur the wrath of many a fanboy, so GameFreak isn't going to do it. (Any time soon? More like ever, says Cynical Talon. -_-; I've been waiting 10 years...) But for real:

In 2010, suppose we're examining who to add to our team's Electric spot and we consider Jolteon, Electrode, Electavire, Raichu, and Ampharos. Let's not waste time debating who does make the cut: let's instead roll straight over to Electrode or Ampharos and focus on why they don't make the cut. Ampharos because he lacks staying power and speed (you can buff one or the other but not both without compromising his attractive SpAtt) and Electrode because he's outclassed in every sense by the others, superior speed be damned. How, then, to fix this? Easy: you make Electrode super-smexy in a way that no one else can be or is. For instance, you create a new electric-type move which says "Base power is equivalent to the Base Speed stat of the user." Well, duh, a turn-1 electric attack with a base power of 140 would be enough to turn many heads. Does it make Electrode the new "omg if you use anybody else you're a retard" kid on the block? No. It simply lets him join their rank. Electivire still has muscle and Volt Engine. Raichu still has Surf. All we did was give the orb a unique move. And voila: it gives people the serious chance to add him to their competitive teams and have fun with him. Apply similar arguments with Ampharos (e.g. since he's a light-emanating Pokemon, perhaps it'd make sense to give him a Poke-ability which says that any time he uses an electric move [of any kind], he has a 30% chance of lowering the foe's accuracy by 1 level).

Last edited by Talon87; 05-07-2010 at 10:57 AM.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 11:31 AM   #52
The Morg
Trying to send Christmas cards
 
The Morg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: *scribble*
Posts: 1,460
>the new "omg if you use anybody else you're a retard" kid on the block

Hi.
__________________

*munch munch* | FB Profile
The Morg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 01:07 PM   #53
Loki
The Path of Now & Forever
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,304
There are no real Pokemon who can have one added move to make them change from UU to OU. There are usually a whole host of reasons why a Pokemon is UU (or worse) and it's not usually because of one or two moves.

Typing is one key factor. In fact, due to things like Stealth Rock, typing has become a major factor due to weakness to Rock could easily mean your Pokemon will be pretty much completely crippled upon entry due to it. Charizard is one example of Stealth Rock's supremacy, turning a powerhouse in OU to a virtual outcast hiding in NU.

Abilities is the next factor. Especially abilities that add immunities or resistances, like Levitate and the various Absorbs are game changing. Other strong abilities are Intimidate, Technician, and a bunch more. In fact, the addition of the ability Technician changed Scizor from BL in Gen3 to OU in Gen4. Granted, he also got a decent set of new moves, but without Technician, it really wouldn't have as strong of a position it does now in the metagame.

The next thing is simply stats. The higher your stats, the better your chances are, especially if you have the right numbers in the right stats. Salamence is a key example. When compared to another powerhouse Dragon, you can see where the main differences kick in. Salamence has higher speed, less defense, and better offensive stats. This ultimately makes Salamence more popular.

So is there any UU Pokemon who could get boosted with new moves to be bumped to OU. I sincerely doubt it.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 02:31 PM   #54
iAmDewgong
Rainbow Badge
 
iAmDewgong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 788
Send a message via MSN to iAmDewgong
Not even stuff like Flare Blitz Flareon?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dosuser
Metagroß: Male Beldum
Metagroß is a totally metal dude. One day, Kuno's voice boomed out, "YOUR STRUGGLE TOTALLY MAKES YOU METAL." This benediction fueled Metagroß' determination to keep struggling to the very end. In his neverending struggle to fulfill his destiny, Metagroß sought out Morg for enlightenment. Morg looked with respect upon Metagroß' tireless struggle and permitted him to train alongside his Magikarp. Now, Metagroß has learned not to be mastered by its struggle, but to be the master of its Struggle.
iAmDewgong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 02:37 PM   #55
Stlbk
taco...
 
Stlbk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 877
Send a message via AIM to Stlbk
Certain moves could easily boost Pokemon to OU.

The greatest example is status affliction moves that have high %'s and being given to a Pokemon with okay stats that didn't stand before because there are Pokemon with better stats/movepool.

What move could do this, you say? Spore maybe? 100% sleep inducing trap-factory. There are other moves that could give that certain Pokemon the lift but in general it is stats and ability that would generally push them to the next category.
Stlbk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 03:07 PM   #56
The Morg
Trying to send Christmas cards
 
The Morg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: *scribble*
Posts: 1,460
So I looked up some of my team members on Smogon (笑) and their ``Expert Strategists'' have written reviews ranging from "this is a bad Pokemon" to "I don't know what the Game Freak developers were smoking when they designed this one" and "don't use this except as a joke".

I was varying degrees of pleased/offended.
__________________

*munch munch* | FB Profile
The Morg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 03:08 PM   #57
Loki
The Path of Now & Forever
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,304
Parasect is sad that it isn't OU.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 03:15 PM   #58
ZoraJolteon
BBCode Master
 
ZoraJolteon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,030
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kakuna

Does Morg approve?
__________________

Superior Christmas Banner is Superior.
Also still looking for ref with brain, although not just now due to Tyranidos running in fear.
ZoraJolteon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 03:27 PM   #59
The Morg
Trying to send Christmas cards
 
The Morg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: *scribble*
Posts: 1,460
Woa nice. I didn't check any of the unevolved forms so I didn't expect such a well-written review with excellent strategy to boot. I especially like the diversity of movesets they came up with.
The Morg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 04:09 PM   #60
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
There are no real Pokemon who can have one added move to make them change from UU to OU.
*sigh*, no imagination. =\

Why is Absol UU? Poor defenses and speed.
Why might Absol want to be used? 130 base Att, holy cow.
How might we fix Absol with one move? STAB Priority-1 attack. Duh. Give it the dark-type equivalent of Extreme Speed and you've given Absol some serious breathing room. It ain't going to see the light of day in BL or Uber just because of one little move, but it sure will escape UU status. Put a Choice Band on that puppy and lights out!!

Why is Claydol UU? Good defenses but nothing to use them for. Movepool doesn't make good use of 'em and his attack stats suck too much for him to be used as an effective tank.
How might we fix Claydol? Give him some moves which do make use of his package. He's a ground-type with Levitate and some pretty damn nice defenses. With the right effort training he can wall a lot of shit, switch into electric and ground attacks like nobody's business, *and* pull some cool shit off. I know! How about ... we give him a move which mimics Toxic but is the ground-type instead? You could call it, I dunno, Quicksand? ;p It's a ground-type Toxic which means it hits Steel and Poison, something which Toxic can't boast, and it's a war-of-attrition move, something perfectly suited to a guy like Claydol. Give him Leftovers or Chesto-Rest and he's happy as a clam, Cosmic Powers or not. Again: I'm not asking you to say, "Wow, that makes Claydol FEARSOME! Ubers, here we come!!" I'm asking you to admit that this would put him well within striking distance of some of his current threats.
Alternatively? We could just give Claydol a power-80 priority-2 grass-type move and be done with it. :P Buh-bye, Swampert.

Cloyster, my main man! Why are you in UU? Oh, I know why: Stealth Rock. Inability to capitalize on your typing (Water/Ice). Sexy high defense (180!!!!!!!!) paired off with a SpDef of 45 which begs rapage -_____-; . How do we fix this? How do we fix this =\ ...
Answer #1: make his SpDef 85 or higher. -_-; But since this isn't a Stat Fixing argument but a Single Move one, ...
Answer #2: give him a better version than he has right now of Clamp. We'll call it "Clamp 2.0." And this Clamp 2.0 works as follows:
(1) while he's doing it, the opponent can't do shit. Can't retreat. Can't attack. Can't do anything.
(2) it uses his Att stat (which is the only other decent stat he has)
Or, my favorite ...
Answer #3: we give him a superior Withdraw
(1) when he doesn't use this move, his stats are what you see. Anime-wise, picture it as though his shell is open and you can see his face. A SpAtt move to his 45-stat weak point is like a punch to his black pearly face.
(2) but when he uses the move, for 2-5 turns he stays put like this (can't help it)
(3) and during this time, his SpDef and Def stats both become 180
(4) So he becomes a fucking wall to be reckoned with
(5) And if he's Baton Passed in on a locked opponent? Consider him amazing.

One move is all it takes, Loki.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 05:46 PM   #61
Blastoise
We deny our creators.
 
Blastoise's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Reduces construction time
Posts: 3,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
*sigh*, no imagination. =\
The problem is that you're arguing that you can improve Pokemon with one move...by creating moves that don't yet exist. It's kind of inane to say "these moves would make Pokemon X better next gen" when we don't know what mechanical changes are even going to be a part of gen 5 to begin with: the reason Cloyster and Claydol aren't seen as much is because of things that fourth gen introduced that made their niches largely irrelevant (Shed Shell/Stealth Rock/Bronzong).

EDIT: Ignoring that...most of your suggestions outside of priority on Absol don't get to the root of the problem. Ground type Toxic for Claydol is not a compelling argument for using him over Bronzong. GameFREAK is not going to give Claydol a goofy-ass "MY DEFENSES BECOME SUPREME FOR 2-5 TURNS WITH NO DRAWBACKS" move, but even with that his typing is fucking abysmal for a defensive Pokemon.
__________________
"It does not matter anymore. We cannot change the past. The future will have to do."
-Windham Khatib

Last edited by Blastoise; 05-07-2010 at 05:59 PM.
Blastoise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 07:11 PM   #62
Loki
The Path of Now & Forever
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,304
Even if you made up a fake move to boost the usefulness of a Pokemon, that Pokemon is still limited due to the other factors I've stated.

If your typing is poor, you will have trouble switching in. Pokemon with few resistances or immunities are one example. Pokemon like Swampert, who have 110 less max defense than another monstrous defender like Skarmory is still easily capable of wallling off physical hits because its typing giving it so many useful resistances and only one weakness.

Meanwhile, your example of Cloyster, who has 504 defense (vs. 306 on Swampert) is still a crappy Pokemon. With 4 weaknesses, 3 being extremely popular in the metagame and only two resistances, it really has little chances of coming into the battle and surviving a lot of attacks.

How do we fix Cloyster with one added move? An existing move btw. Because making up random shit can fix almost every Pokemon.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 07:21 PM   #63
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,362
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
Cloyster needs no fixing to be the awesome lead it needs to be, y'all!

Cloyster@Choice Band
252 atk/ 252 spe/ 4 hp
Adamant, Skill Link
~Icicle Spear
~Explosion
~Spikes
~Filler

Takes care of Aero and Ninjask. 2Koes Azelf with Icicle Spear. OH's Swampert with BOOM. Spikes is mainly a "just use it if it's the best option." Add to that the fact it can boom later on summing else too and a Choice Band, and you got yourself a real menace.
Also, if it got Earthquake Meta and Heatran would also be beat. But Boom does a pretty good job.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2010, 09:26 PM   #64
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
Cloyster needs no fixing to be the awesome lead it needs to be, y'all!

Cloyster@Choice Band
252 atk/ 252 spe/ 4 hp
Adamant, Skill Link
~Icicle Spear
~Explosion
~Spikes
~Filler

Takes care of Aero and Ninjask. 2Koes Azelf with Icicle Spear. OH's Swampert with BOOM. Spikes is mainly a "just use it if it's the best option." Add to that the fact it can boom later on summing else too and a Choice Band, and you got yourself a real menace.
Also, if it got Earthquake Meta and Heatran would also be beat. But Boom does a pretty good job.
I've had this used on me. It's actually rather good.


On the subject of New Moves that could help a pokemon (running with what Talon was saying), Flareon and Entai need help. No, not Flare Blitz. SR weakness + Not so good HP = Flare Blitz isn't that good of a fix. We need a physical version of Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Something Without recoil. THEN they can be better. Enough to go up a tier? Eh, maybe. Maybe not. But enough to see more use. Scratch that. Enough to actually be usable.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:39 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.