07-13-2013, 09:15 PM | #1 |
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George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
Debate it here. If you want.
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07-13-2013, 10:20 PM | #2 |
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Someone explain to me what this is and why it matters, please.
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07-13-2013, 10:22 PM | #3 |
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For Amras:
this is a murder case in Florida, where a neighborhood watchman shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old kid after a fight/altercation, was night outside, no one really knows the situation except the survivor.. This case is significant for a few reasons. 1, it showed the problems of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law, which is pretty much a way to be able to claim self defense if you are threatened. 2. The case gained more concern after the shooter (George Zimmerman) wasn't held, arrested or even the case wasn't considered a crime for a month and a half afterwards. 3, it's partially a race issue- the kid who died (Trayvon Martin) is black, was unarmed, was allowed to be in the neighborhood (he had a parent living there), and was unarmed, Zimmerman is Hispanic/White, some of the comments during the investigation appear racist, etc. The main thing is that even though Martin did nothing wrong/was unarmed, and it appeared that Zimmerman started the conflict, Zimmerman was acquitted of all charges. _______ My opinion I haven't posted in a while, but I think the ruling is wrong. Yes, I know that the decision is final and a trial happened, etc. But that doesn't make the decision right. I'm biased, but I feel that Zimmerman was guilty because he did not follow the orders given by the dispatcher/911 caller, and he started the fight. If he hadn't gotten out of the car, no one's dead and Zimmerman gets to live his life without the knowledge that he's a murderer. In all, the state could have done better to get the prosecution, and I'm incredibly disappointed, but I mean there's nothing that can be changed. At the same time, I feel that no one, not even Zimmerman wins in this situation because at least if he was convicted, there's some safety, even a small amount in prison, (solitary confinement, etc.) but now he's effectively doomed himself to a life of hiding because of the notoriety. I don't think it's ok that a 17 year old of any race died. I don't think you should be allowed to call out for self defense in the world where you follow someone and cause an altercation. It doesn't make sense to me at any point that if you are a grown adult in a fight against a 17 year old, you ever get the idea to shoot him, or why you follow him because he's "suspicious". I don't understand a lot of things, that I feel that the prosecution could have won if they had taken the time to use in a trial. At the same time, until the jury made its verdict, I thought there was some risk that there would be an acquittal, or a not guilty verdict, but I thought that there was enough evidence, or just common sense that would have convicted Zimmerman. I could see that the state wasn't using all of its potential angles, but I thought that the attempt to prove Zimmerman's story to be false and that he was a liar was good. I don't think that they were as strong at proving that Zimmerman was responsible, though he was. The defense did what they needed to do. I don't believe much of it, but they did their job. I'm watching the news conference afterwards, and it's still pretty apparent how disappointed that everyone, except the defense lawyers appear to be with this decision. On a personal level, as a black man in America, this decision concerns me a lot. I think that this has caused a lot of problems that has proven, once and for all that racism exists, that the justice system doesn't work for me and others. I'm actually a little terrified because this decision makes it appear that black people aren't thought of as a group that deserves protection, or justice. THis could be seen as hyperbole, but it's not. there are times when racism, or harassment from security figures makes you feel less than a human being. You notice it when your parents tell you how to act around police officers or cops, how it's so important to not act crazy in public. It's not normal when you look around at a small store, and the person at the counter wants you to empty your pockets before you leave the store, it's not cool when you feel unwanted. In this case, given all of the evidence, I feel that this same feeling is spreading to all of the African American population in the United States because of this case. I don't expect violence, and would hope it never occurs because it would just give ammunition to those individuals who are racist. At the same time, with all of the evidence and circumstances in this case, and the decision that resulted... I don't feel comfortable with the justice system in the United States at the moment. Furthermore, it still seems that the second largest theme in this case, besides the fact that a kid was murdered, is the race factor, no matter how much all people involved try to say otherwise. TL;DR version I didn't have faith in a Zimmerman conviction even before the verdict was announced, was hoping for justice to be seen but that verdict is fucking stupid, but typical of America. Or at the very least, compared to Casey Anthony, Zimmerman's GUILTY AS FUCK. Last edited by Firewater; 07-13-2013 at 10:28 PM. |
07-13-2013, 10:26 PM | #4 |
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tldr - guy feels threatened by a kid named trayvon martin, calls the police. they tell him to stay away from him and keep to himself. he ignored and instead follows the kid. the kid attacks him, throws punches and stuff. george pulls out a gun and shoots him in defense. winds up killing him.
I'm not gonna state my opinion just yet, if at all, but I wish people would stop making this about race and just look at what happened between two people and why both of them made bad decisions that created a terrible situation that never needed to happen. |
07-13-2013, 10:30 PM | #5 |
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Yeah sounds like they both fucked up in that situation. Based solely on your description deo it sounds like Zimmerman should have been found guilty for something at least.
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07-13-2013, 10:33 PM | #6 |
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The correct decision was made. The evidence was too circumstantial for anything at all. America's legal system works on the basis that it doesn't matter if 99 guilty people go free, no innocent person should ever have the chance of going into jail. Based on that, Zimmerman wasn't guilty of any crime. Just being a complete asshole and an idiot.
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07-13-2013, 10:37 PM | #7 | ||
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Quote:
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I get what you all are saying, but this is at least partially a race issue. What did Martin do wrong? He was a resident of the area since his parents lived there, he even contacted other people about Zimmerman following him, and it looked and sounded like Zimmerman started the conflict by following Martin for a rather long distance afterwards. And even then, why shouldn't Martin have been able to defend himself? Why was Zimmerman so inept that he had to shoot a kid he was stronger than and larger than? What would have happened had the roles been reversed? Those are all important facts to think about because I don't think Martin did anything wrong. Besides, if you think someone's following you, why would you try and fight them or confront them anyway? |
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07-13-2013, 10:39 PM | #8 |
Foot, meet mouth.
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Are you crazy? If this is your sole argument about why Zimmerman shouldn't have had to defend himself then I know plenty of 5'5 guys who know karate and would be willing to teach you how. I mean, seriously. This isn't MMA.
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07-13-2013, 10:46 PM | #9 | |
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1. you don't get to follow someone for being "suspicious", and you shouldn't follow someone when the proper authorities tell you not to. 2. your concern still doesn't answer my main concern. Why does a grown adult need to pull out their gun to stop a kid, or even more why did he shoot to kill, or even shoot Martin at all- there are other ways to stop a fight that aren't nearly as violent. 3. I'm sorry but looking at Zimmerman he doesn't look so weak/small that he couldn't find some other way to restrain a kid who was smaller than him than shooting him. THere would be a difference if Martin had pulled a knife or some sort of weapon, but none of the pictures shown this entire time, or any testimony from either side proves that Martin did or had anything that would have put Zimmerman at risk. |
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07-13-2013, 10:49 PM | #10 |
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There was not enough evidence to 100% convict Zimmerman of breaking any actual laws. Therefore, he was acquitted, as he should have been.
What we should take from this trial is: A. The Stand Your Ground law is bullshit B. Racism really came into play /after/ the murder, with how the media responded (or didn't respond) to it (although i def believe Zimmerman pursued Trayvon due to racial prejudice) C. If the roles were reversed, you can bet things would be completely different
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07-13-2013, 10:51 PM | #11 |
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FW:
1. That's not a crime, since it didn't amount to stalking. And it raises the question of why didn't Martin call the cops instead of attacking Zimmerman? 2. Because a gun is pulled any time you think your life might be in danger and in a heated fight that can be anything from him putting a hand in his coat pocket to picking up a brick. 3. You're an idiot if you honestly think there was no way Martin could've gotten the advantage in that fight. BTW, I don't think the Stand your Ground law is bullshit, I think if someone escalates anything to attacking you, you have the right. |
07-13-2013, 10:52 PM | #12 |
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Rangeet stop trolling.
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07-13-2013, 10:54 PM | #14 | |
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Pretty much this, I know or think you're trying to be devil's advocate...but you're going about this in the worst possible way |
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07-13-2013, 10:55 PM | #15 |
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Stating your opinion in a debate forum is not trolling, MG.
He's just being Rangeet in the way he does it -_- |
07-13-2013, 10:59 PM | #16 |
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The reason I think that Rangeet is trolling is because the part of the case that he's focusing on is literally the part that makes the least sense in any part of Zimmerman's defense.
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07-13-2013, 11:00 PM | #17 | |
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Believe me deo, I am the last person to want Rangeet to shut up just because I disagree with his opinion. |
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07-13-2013, 11:04 PM | #18 | ||
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This was pretty much a no-win situation from the moment it happened. No matter what the verdict would have been, it would have sucked for one fight or another. An acquittal feels like a smack in the face of logical reasoning while a conviction would've felt like a smack in the face of upholding the law.
I think that this case illustrates that pretty much all of the stand-your-ground laws that we have in this country should at the very least be rewritten to put in some obvious clauses that would separate out legitimate stand-your-ground scenarios from illegitimate ones. I don't agree with Firewater's fixation on Martin's age though. Being an older teenage boy is plenty old enough to already be a danger to people's lives. Most gang members are in their teens or twenties. (Only 13% of gang members in the mid-1990s were over 24 years old!) I'm not saying that Martin was a gang member or that anything we know about him would suggest that he would have threatened Zimmerman's life. I'm just saying that I think your fixation on Martin's age is inappropriate. I don't think his age is good evidence of his innocence. If anything, if you wanted to go off of gang demographics, it'd be more damning that he was 17, not less damning. So you should probably drop that line of reasoning. "He was just a boy, therefore he couldn't possibly have threatened a grown man" isn't really a firm foundation. "He was just a lean boy with no weapons on him and no history of physical violence" is a much better foundation for your argument. Quoting CNN: Quote:
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But yeah, if you read the requirements for second-degree murder, there's just no way that the prosecution could have proven this. All of the supposition about Zimmerman's intentions is pure speculation. Obviously it makes sense, given the picture, but it's still just speculation. We don't convict people of second-degree murder based on mere speculation. The prosecution would've had to have shown evidence that Zimmerman didn't value all human lives equally, something which would have been very tough for them to do given his history. They would've had to have shown that he killed Martin not from terror but out of an evil malice within his heart, a dark desire to snuff out another's life. They couldn't do anything like this, given the crime scene and the defendant's record, so the second-degree murder charge was pretty much dead in the water. I think that's why they must have pushed so hard for the manslaughter charge. Because they knew that they couldn't get the murder conviction.
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07-13-2013, 11:05 PM | #19 |
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It's also the point you seemed intent on bringing on.
The fact remains that there was no evidence against him. If you have to face the facts simply, it's that Zimmerman, perhaps being racist, perhaps being a paranoid idiot, perhaps both(neither of which is a crime) decided to follow Martin. Martin, instead of calling the cops, fought back(this we know for sure), Zimmerman was forced to shoot him- what provoked this escalation and made him think his very life was in danger isn't known, but considering he was being attacked, he was well within his right by the law to do it. If you really are going to bring up racial arguments...Zimmerman was Hispanic. I'm just bringing up the fact. Also I shouldn't have called fw an idiot but come _on._ If you're being suddenly attacked by someone you thought was acting suspicious, that in itself could be enough reason to think your life was in danger. |
07-13-2013, 11:15 PM | #20 |
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I agree with most of the rest of your post, but not with this. Racism/prejudice can and does occur between oppressed groups. White feminists will abandon intersectionality and inclusion to reach gender equality for themselves. Black people will abandon Latin@s and vice versa in order to reach racial equality for themselves. "LGBT" activists will abandon transgender and genderqueer people to reach marriage equality for themselves. It's a sad fact.
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07-13-2013, 11:15 PM | #21 |
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Talon worded my feelings about it better than I ever could have. And that's all I have to say at the moment.
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07-13-2013, 11:21 PM | #23 | |
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07-13-2013, 11:24 PM | #24 | |
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edit: Mind if I ask why you write it as "Latin@" copy? Is 'Latino' now considered offensive or something? edit 2: Nvm, looked it up, sorry, I wasn't sure what it initially meant. For anyone wondering it's the gender neutral term. |
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07-13-2013, 11:29 PM | #25 | ||
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For my fixation on the age, it's just a simple fact that it doesn't matter if the person was 13, 17, 16, 8, white, black, yellow, green, etc. the point is that a grown adult killed a (in legal terms) child under a suspicion of illegal activity. Yes, children can kill or seriously injure adults. That doesn't make it right when a younger person is killed. Makes sense once again, I agree, I think 2nd degree murder was a stretch, but I expected some conviction on some level. I just don't get how he was found not guilty of at least manslaughter since he chose to follow and chose to shoot the gun (yes, I will give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt that he did not intend to kill Martin), but that doesn't excuse the fact that you killed someone and admitted it, and still couldn't prove or appear to have any injury that would call for deadly force. Quote:
2. did you listen to PikaGod? have you read a US history book, or any studies on the criminal system in the United States? YES, Martin could have called the cops, but things are different for black people. There are multiple historical examples of police discrimination and brutality against minority groups, but especially African American males. It hasn't been said, but I'm willing to bet that like myself and the majority of black men who live in the southern US/places with a lot of police interaction is to be careful because things can happen that aren't justified. And you aren't answering my question still. Why should the first response to when you follow someone and meet up with them be to kill them? Given the circumstances, and the fact that Martin called someone and was concerned, even if it wasn't the police, does bring a lot of suspicion to the claim that Martin was the attacker in this situation 3. Once again, others proved the point, just because Zimmerman was Latino doesn't mean that he's automatically not racist/pro black people/not prejudiced, that stuff still exists among other races that aren't white. 4. Answered this earlier, but even if Martin attacked first (which is something that is in doubt), why would, or should the first response from Zimmerman be "oh shit I'm in a fight- I need to use my gun?" |
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