04-09-2013, 10:48 PM | #1 | |||
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North Korea Debate General
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And again, I never said it was. In fact, I'd consider myself pretty much a pacifist unless we are being directly threatened by another nation. Which we are, by the way. Are we just going to wait until they actually do something and it's too late before we take them seriously? Quote:
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Why do we keep tiptoeing around the issue when it's just like a huge Auschwitz over there? Like I said: I don't even really know my own feelings on it. These are just things I think about from time to time and often muse over. I am incredibly conflicted on how I should feel or what we should do, if anything. Context for some of these views: Warning: The following links are potentially scarring / NSFW / NSFL (Not Safe For Life), viewer discretion advised Spoiler: show
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04-09-2013, 11:08 PM | #2 |
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Don't want to debate, but I will say this:
I don't think a war with NK would be over quickly and decisively, nor do I think it would automatically result in reunification with the South. That's too rosy. I think North Korea would try to mobilize all of the nonessential citizenry, if there even is any, into the army, and would fight to the last man. If North Koreans hated NK as much as you say they do, there would have been many more attempts at revolution than there has been. I've been under the impression they've brainwashed their citizens. North Korea is not a threat to us. North Korea is a threat to that part of Asia, and even then they are heavily out-technologied. I would suspect that the South Koreans and other Asians in that part of the world would not have as many second thoughts about massive missile bombardment as we do. On the whole though I think we're mostly in agreement. NK = sack of shit doing and saying horrible things. I'm just saying we shouldn't look for a fight if diplomacy can still work. |
04-10-2013, 01:13 AM | #4 |
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We never invaded the Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China over the exact same things people are claiming in North Korea.
We did not get nuked despite the USSR actually having both nukes and a proper delivery system. Now, Russia is our buddy but was crippled due to their conversion to capitalism. China is our biggest business partner and is slowly making a transition into a more free nation. So the whole system of "wait and see" seems to be pretty good so far. |
04-10-2013, 02:35 AM | #5 |
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Ehh, America invading them over a concentration camp? Fairly hypocritical and definitely not a reason to do anything tangible from their point of view.
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04-10-2013, 03:10 AM | #7 |
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America has plenty of fairly exotic internment camps dotted about the globe. Not that any of them exist to target Jews specifically.
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04-10-2013, 04:07 AM | #8 |
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Yeah, Guantanamo Bay is the easiest place to name.
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04-10-2013, 04:20 AM | #9 |
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Mmhmm. Obviously I'm not suggesting that America is gassing Muslims and collecting their glasses and hair though!
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04-10-2013, 04:56 AM | #10 |
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04-10-2013, 05:45 AM | #11 | |
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04-10-2013, 07:58 AM | #12 | |
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Based on my poor understanding of history, politics and ethics...
I think they have no intention of starting a war - historically, they do this sort of thing periodically, and they do it because eventually they get rewarded for their bad behaviour. They attacked the USS Pueblo and won a written apology, written admission the US had been spying and a public promise from the US not to spy again. They tried to trade the Pueblo itself back in exchange for an official state visit from the US Secretary of State. This is the sixth time they've said they will no longer abide by the armistice. In 2010 they shelled the South Korean island of Yeonpyeong. The nuclear threats don't represent an increase in the rhetoric at all - just an increase in what they can try to claim they can do now they've tested a few. Honestly, just wall the idiots in - cut all communications and other contact with them, do what Japan is saying it'll do in shooting down any missiles that come out of its territory and just leave them to stew until they stop acting like a spoiled brat. They're only doing it because historically it's won them concessions. Normally I'm against the hardline "rawr if I'm elected we'll not take any more shit from country x rawr" bullshit, but in NK's case I think they've made it clear that they mostly do it because it benefits them. Of course, the real trick is attempting to get China on board because the North relies in China for most of its food and fuel and shit, but that's unlikely.
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Last edited by Concept; 04-10-2013 at 09:15 AM. |
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04-10-2013, 10:01 AM | #13 |
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For what it's worth, China has been backing off NK a little bit since NK is acting like the screaming child in the grocery store.
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04-10-2013, 11:04 AM | #15 |
Primordial Fishbeast
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>They obviously don't want the US on their border
That's pretty much the reason China launched the counter-offensive during the Korean War - The SK/US troops pushed all the way up to the border, which China was fairly uncomfortable with, so they launched a huge offensive wave to push them back. More for their own benefit rather than to help out Kim Il-sung. |
04-10-2013, 03:49 PM | #16 |
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Korean War era China is not today's China. It would be like saying how the US hates the UK and the two would go to war should the US bring a boat too close.
I don't see the UK declaring war on the US. |
04-10-2013, 04:39 PM | #17 |
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Well, it would hardly be fair, we'd win too easily.
... Also. To seriously contribute to this discussion, I generally agree with those who don't really see the current situation as anything new or to worry any more about than we were a few years ago. North Korea is basically fucked, propped up only be international aid and a fairly impressive propaganda machine (this aside). Their military is a threat to South Korea, certainly, and the fact that they have ballistic missiles AND at least some level of nuclear technology (both of which are problems separately) is obviously a cause to keep an eye on them. But I mean, aside from those forces actually deployed in Asia, you Americans have little to worry about. I can think of no situation in which they could launch at mainland USA and someone wouldn't shoot that mother down. They certainly can't get a nuke to Alaska. Are they likely to move to an actual state of war as opposed to what we have now? Not in my view. Are they likely to nuke anyone? Nope. If they did, will it result in a nuclear exchange? Nope, largely because the West could carpet bomb the crap out of them and be one with it). This is not a hugely different situation to their previous escalation in rhetoric, the main change being that we're at least slightly convinced that they have the ability to produce some form of nuclear weapon. That they treat their citizens badly or have concentration camps is irrelevant. The West a) does those things itself and b) cosies up to dictators and terrible people all the god damn time. Western policy makers are not focussed on North Korea, for good reason. While not entirely predictable, they are less of a threat to your interests than, say, Iran. And they don't have as much oil. |
04-10-2013, 05:39 PM | #18 |
Primordial Fishbeast
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>Are they likely to move to an actual state of war as opposed to what we have now?
Technically the North and South are still at war - both sides consider the entire peninsula theirs and the opposing side as... not 'terrorists' but something of that ilk. There was never a proper peace treaty to bring the War to an end. But that's mostly a technicality. |
04-10-2013, 05:52 PM | #19 |
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My use of the word 'actual' was intended to make that distinction. They are at war, but there is not open fighting (most of the time).
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04-10-2013, 11:24 PM | #20 |
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So, it's like an Asian version of the Troubles? Mean SK is the Ireland, right?
Go South Korea. Seriously, though, this all feels like a temper tantrum from a spoiled brat. Ignore them, don't respond either way, but keep an eye on them in case they try to punch the nice neighbour boy. |
04-11-2013, 07:03 AM | #21 |
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In news that will surprise no-one (who knows who George Galloway is), The most respectable Respect MP for Braadford West thinks North Korea is ok. Linky linky.
Rather amusingly not everything he says is entirely ridiculous. Makes a change. |
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