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Old 04-09-2013, 10:48 PM   #1
deoxys
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North Korea Debate General

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Originally Posted by Amras.MG View Post
I'm not trying to lay blame on America or its allies or anything like that. I was merely trying to point out that in reality this does not affect most of us, and thus that wanting war to come so we can "sort all this out" or something like that is not a good thing. War is not good.

And again, I never said it was. In fact, I'd consider myself pretty much a pacifist unless we are being directly threatened by another nation. Which we are, by the way. Are we just going to wait until they actually do something and it's too late before we take them seriously?

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At this point, if hostilities were to break out, we'd probably have to kill the majority of North Koreans (because having the whole world against you tends to give a people a "backed into the corner, fight tooth and nail to the last breath" mindframe).
That's simply not true. If anything did happen, the only target would be Pyongyang, the DMZ, and the coastal areas where the military operates. It would probably be a (fairly) quick and dirty job, and it would end with Korea being reunited as one with the South taking control. Those in the North who had been separated from their families in the South will be reunited and the disgusting and inhumane prison camps and gulags would be shut down.

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Also I am still unconvinced about the whole "US going around liberating people" thing. Don't we catch shit for that all the time?
I don't believe in the "policemen of the world" thing either, but I'm very much indecisive on the issue, to be honest. On the one hand, if something like labor camps and the treatment of the citizens shown in the links I've linked to in a past post in this thread are in fact existing and very much a common thing in NK, is it not the moral duty of a world power to step in and stop something so wretched and vile? To save people from something such as this? We made mistakes in the past especially with Iraq and to a degree Afghanistan. They were not justified and it was entirely a worthless cause, sticking true to the name "world police". But here we have an incredibly belligerent nation who says they will attack us and have a gun pointed at SK's head, and meanwhile are killing their citizens with malnutrition and leaving them to rot. Why should they even be allowed to continue doing these things? Why hasn't NATO or the United Nations done anything about it?

Why do we keep tiptoeing around the issue when it's just like a huge Auschwitz over there?


Like I said: I don't even really know my own feelings on it. These are just things I think about from time to time and often muse over. I am incredibly conflicted on how I should feel or what we should do, if anything.

Context for some of these views:

Warning: The following links are potentially scarring / NSFW / NSFL (Not Safe For Life), viewer discretion advised

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Old 04-09-2013, 11:08 PM   #2
Amras.MG
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Don't want to debate, but I will say this:

I don't think a war with NK would be over quickly and decisively, nor do I think it would automatically result in reunification with the South. That's too rosy. I think North Korea would try to mobilize all of the nonessential citizenry, if there even is any, into the army, and would fight to the last man. If North Koreans hated NK as much as you say they do, there would have been many more attempts at revolution than there has been. I've been under the impression they've brainwashed their citizens.

North Korea is not a threat to us. North Korea is a threat to that part of Asia, and even then they are heavily out-technologied. I would suspect that the South Koreans and other Asians in that part of the world would not have as many second thoughts about massive missile bombardment as we do.

On the whole though I think we're mostly in agreement. NK = sack of shit doing and saying horrible things. I'm just saying we shouldn't look for a fight if diplomacy can still work.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:45 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Why do we keep tiptoeing around the issue when it's just like a huge Auschwitz over there?
There are more jews here than North Koreans.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:13 AM   #4
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We never invaded the Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China over the exact same things people are claiming in North Korea.

We did not get nuked despite the USSR actually having both nukes and a proper delivery system.

Now, Russia is our buddy but was crippled due to their conversion to capitalism. China is our biggest business partner and is slowly making a transition into a more free nation.

So the whole system of "wait and see" seems to be pretty good so far.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:35 AM   #5
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Ehh, America invading them over a concentration camp? Fairly hypocritical and definitely not a reason to do anything tangible from their point of view.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:58 AM   #6
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How exactly is it hypocritical?
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:10 AM   #7
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America has plenty of fairly exotic internment camps dotted about the globe. Not that any of them exist to target Jews specifically.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:07 AM   #8
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Yeah, Guantanamo Bay is the easiest place to name.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:20 AM   #9
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Mmhmm. Obviously I'm not suggesting that America is gassing Muslims and collecting their glasses and hair though!
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:56 AM   #10
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Quote:
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a concentration camp?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:45 AM   #11
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I know what concentration camps are, I'm British; we invented them! My point is that it would be hugely hypocritical of America to use them as justification for going in (and that it's not enough reason to justify them going in).
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:58 AM   #12
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Based on my poor understanding of history, politics and ethics...

I think they have no intention of starting a war - historically, they do this sort of thing periodically, and they do it because eventually they get rewarded for their bad behaviour. They attacked the USS Pueblo and won a written apology, written admission the US had been spying and a public promise from the US not to spy again. They tried to trade the Pueblo itself back in exchange for an official state visit from the US Secretary of State. This is the sixth time they've said they will no longer abide by the armistice. In 2010 they shelled the South Korean island of Yeonpyeong.

The nuclear threats don't represent an increase in the rhetoric at all - just an increase in what they can try to claim they can do now they've tested a few. Honestly, just wall the idiots in - cut all communications and other contact with them, do what Japan is saying it'll do in shooting down any missiles that come out of its territory and just leave them to stew until they stop acting like a spoiled brat. They're only doing it because historically it's won them concessions. Normally I'm against the hardline "rawr if I'm elected we'll not take any more shit from country x rawr" bullshit, but in NK's case I think they've made it clear that they mostly do it because it benefits them.

Of course, the real trick is attempting to get China on board because the North relies in China for most of its food and fuel and shit, but that's unlikely.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:01 AM   #13
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For what it's worth, China has been backing off NK a little bit since NK is acting like the screaming child in the grocery store.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:59 AM   #14
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China is fairly fucked. They obviously don't want the US on their border, but if NK oversteps the line in the sand they will invade and it'll be bad for China too.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:04 AM   #15
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>They obviously don't want the US on their border

That's pretty much the reason China launched the counter-offensive during the Korean War - The SK/US troops pushed all the way up to the border, which China was fairly uncomfortable with, so they launched a huge offensive wave to push them back. More for their own benefit rather than to help out Kim Il-sung.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:49 PM   #16
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Korean War era China is not today's China. It would be like saying how the US hates the UK and the two would go to war should the US bring a boat too close.

I don't see the UK declaring war on the US.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:39 PM   #17
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Well, it would hardly be fair, we'd win too easily.

...

Also. To seriously contribute to this discussion, I generally agree with those who don't really see the current situation as anything new or to worry any more about than we were a few years ago. North Korea is basically fucked, propped up only be international aid and a fairly impressive propaganda machine (this aside). Their military is a threat to South Korea, certainly, and the fact that they have ballistic missiles AND at least some level of nuclear technology (both of which are problems separately) is obviously a cause to keep an eye on them. But I mean, aside from those forces actually deployed in Asia, you Americans have little to worry about. I can think of no situation in which they could launch at mainland USA and someone wouldn't shoot that mother down. They certainly can't get a nuke to Alaska.

Are they likely to move to an actual state of war as opposed to what we have now? Not in my view. Are they likely to nuke anyone? Nope. If they did, will it result in a nuclear exchange? Nope, largely because the West could carpet bomb the crap out of them and be one with it). This is not a hugely different situation to their previous escalation in rhetoric, the main change being that we're at least slightly convinced that they have the ability to produce some form of nuclear weapon. That they treat their citizens badly or have concentration camps is irrelevant. The West a) does those things itself and b) cosies up to dictators and terrible people all the god damn time. Western policy makers are not focussed on North Korea, for good reason. While not entirely predictable, they are less of a threat to your interests than, say, Iran. And they don't have as much oil.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:39 PM   #18
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>Are they likely to move to an actual state of war as opposed to what we have now?

Technically the North and South are still at war - both sides consider the entire peninsula theirs and the opposing side as... not 'terrorists' but something of that ilk. There was never a proper peace treaty to bring the War to an end. But that's mostly a technicality.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:52 PM   #19
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My use of the word 'actual' was intended to make that distinction. They are at war, but there is not open fighting (most of the time).
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:24 PM   #20
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So, it's like an Asian version of the Troubles? Mean SK is the Ireland, right?

Go South Korea.

Seriously, though, this all feels like a temper tantrum from a spoiled brat. Ignore them, don't respond either way, but keep an eye on them in case they try to punch the nice neighbour boy.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:03 AM   #21
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In news that will surprise no-one (who knows who George Galloway is), The most respectable Respect MP for Braadford West thinks North Korea is ok. Linky linky.

Rather amusingly not everything he says is entirely ridiculous. Makes a change.
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