Online Competitive Pokemon Battle Showdown Happy Fun Times

[Princess Ana]

Man Sand Rush Excadrill is still wildly powerful.

I'd be more tempted to ban that than Aegi or Mega Maw.

[Raves]

>Mega Mawile banned

At the rate bans are going when Octber rolls over we'll be back to gen 5 OU's tier list. Smogon needs to let the fucking game settle instead of starting banning shit like Israel bombing Gaza.

[Shuckle]

I'm going to play UU and wait for this whole thing to boil over.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by seakittenyfool

>Mega Mawile banned

At the rate bans are going when Octber rolls over we'll be back to gen 5 OU's tier list. Smogon needs to let the fucking game settle instead of starting banning shit like Israel bombing Gaza.

Part I: I have been saying since February, when I became involved in the SwagPlay debate, that it appears that Smogon's staff is on a mission to force the Gen 6 peg into the Gen 5 hole.

You didn't used to have this in previous generations. When we went from Gen 3 to Gen 4 and many old strategies and creatures from Gen 3 started sucking, Smogon didn't go out of their way to "correct" this. Likewise, when we went from Gen 4 to Gen 5, Smogon -- often to my great personal chagrin! -- refused to ban the new threats and playstyles that were dominating the ladder and making OU boring for so many. They were eventually forced to ban some elements of Gen 5's best strategies (e.g. they banned the combination of Swift Swim and Drizzle but did not ban Drizzle Politoed outright), but the team in the driver's seat for much of Gen 5 (particularly the later portion of it) was only too thrilled to have Terrakion wrecking shit, Keldeo being broken as fuck, and of course no shortage of sand and rain teams.

But with Gen 6, things have been noticeably different. With Gen 6, it feels like we have the same people in charge who were in charge of Gen 5 (especially the second half of it). And it feels like these people became emotionally attached to their playstyles & creatures of choice. And/or that they became mentally convinced that the Gen 5 OU meta, circa September 2013, was "balanced or very nearly balanced" and thus "the way the meta should be." As in, the way the meta should be for all time. That's dangerous thinking. Especially for a game like Pokémon in the hands of a development team like Game Freak who seem to love shaking things up every generation. (You'd have been laughed out of the room in Gen 3 if you'd have insisted that Scizor was going to be the #1 Pokémon in 2010!) So what we see happening this generation -- or at least, what it feels to me like's been happening -- is that the Smogon OU council are systematically pruning the Gen 6 hedge to make it match the hedge they remember from Gen 5. Oh, sure! They'll allow for Gen 6 moves and creatures! Just not ones that upset the "natural order of things," where the natural order of things is for Terrakion to be in the top half of OU, not in Ubers but not in UU either. "If something is making Terrakion be in UU, then we need to ban stuff. Once Terrakion is at that cusp where people are demanding his head on a silver platter but they're still in the minority, that's when we've hit the sweet spot."

Part II: The thing is, I feel like I've been very mistaken about Smogon in one specific regard these past eight months. It's become clearer and clearer to me over time that I was wrong to think that way, that espousing those views is probably (at least in part) why the Smogon staff felt like I was someone to be laughed at and silenced.

When I wrote in February about what SwagPlay means for the metagame, I tried to persuade a ban council that I mistook for primarily Hyper Offense players that there was merit in keeping around gameplay elements which would give stall a leg up. I felt like I had witnessed "the death of stall" in Gen 6, at least from where I was on the OU ladder, that I had witnessed ever-increasing power creep from Game Freak making it impossible to use creatures like Blissey or Skarmory anywhere near as well as you could in Gens 2 or 3. And in that latter respect, I still think that I am right, that stall has been having a harder time of it with each successive generation. But in the former respect, I was flatly wrong. Smogon's OU ban council isn't primarily HO players looking for excuses to hose stall and make HO the uncontested king. Smogon's OU ban council appears to be heavily influenced by pro-stall sentiments.

When they banned SwagPlay, it wasn't because it was hurting HO: it was because it was hurting stall just as much or even more. I didn't understand that in February. To be honest, I still don't understand it. But the claim was made back in February that it did, and every ban since then has made more sense to me coming out of a pro-stall council's mouth than out of a pro-HO council's mouth.

Why ban Mega Lucario? Because he's an annoying stall breaker. You don't know which set he runs until it's too late (for stall; not too late necessarily for rival HO), he takes out one of your crucial chess pieces, and your entire stall engine falls apart.

Why ban Aegislash? As one person put it, they don't really want Aegislash banned. They just convinced the lynch mob to go along with it because they wanted to tear down the floodgates. I don't have the quote in front of me (but can locate it if pressed to), but I read the other day about how Smogon specifically stated, in their letter about banning Aegislash, that they wanted to leave themselves the door open to go back on this decision come ORAS. That seems innocent enough ... but consider the following:

• You ban Aegislash, alleging that he breaks stall.
• In reality, Aegislash is a beloved chess piece of stall's. With him out of the picture, suddenly HO is terrorizing with things like Mega Mawile.
• Stall hates these things like Mega Mawile.
• So Stall asks for them to be banned, one after another after another.
• This carries on right up until ORAS's release.
• At which point Smogon reverses their ban on Aegislash ... but not Mega Mawile or the other wall breakers.

At the end of the day, stall gets Aegislash back but HO won't be getting Mega Mawile & Co. back.

Why ban Mega Mawile? Well I just explained. Stall has little use for her, but she's a favorite chess piece of HO looking to destabilize an otherwise well-oiled machine, be it stall or fellow HO. With Aegislash out of the picture, Mega Mawile is "too good." She's "clearly gotta go." And so out the door she goes.

The next victim of Smogon's suspect testing will determine whether this latest post is a bunch of hogwash or not. Frankly, part of me would like it to be just that. I feel like an idiot for not noticing until now that the bans better fit the profile of a pro-stall ban council than a pro-HO one. And I would really love to be shown that I'm wrong about the Gen 6 staff trying to mold the OU meta to match Gen 5's. But I just don't see it ... Aside from "obvious legendaries" like the box cover ones, Gen 4 was pretty generous towards powerhouses and novel strategies. We didn't ban Skarmory from holding onto Shed Shell to escape from Magnezone. We didn't ban Trick from fucking over Blissey once a Choice Item was tricked onto her. We didn't ban Scizor even though his popularity at the end of Gen 4 far and away eclipses the peak popularity of any creature in Gen 6 OU. (Just look at the usage stats if you don't believe me.) I feel like the people who created Smogon were still with us for Gen 4, and that's why the 3-to-4 transition went so smoothly, felt so ... cooperative, for lack of a better word. Smogon didn't feel like an enemy of ideal play back then but a friend, an ally. Gen 5 is where (again, for lack of better terms) the "Pokémon nepotism" began to creep up, it feels like. Whereas Gen 4's staff was more than happy to let Magneton, Blissey, Skarmory, or Sceptile die like the dinosaurs with the changing times, Gen 5's felt more ... "preservationist," somehow. Like, "if something is killing off Blissey, well then that clearly needs to be dealt with. Blissey shouldn't be dying in OU. If something is pushing Blissey down to UU, then that thing probably needs to go to Ubers instead." It kind of sort of feels like that that was the guiding principle behind a lot of the power-based bans in Gens 5 and 6. I understand it, and have even echoed the sentiment in years past ... but I don't find myself agreeing with it today. I feel more strongly than ever that the metagame should be allowed to evolve and that Smogon has gotten far, far too hands on in their approach to managing the metagame.

Long story short, I feel like today's OU ban council would have banned Stealth Rock in a heartbeat had it been invented this generation instead of two generations ago; and vice versa, I feel like the OU ban council that allowed Stealth Rock to ruin Charizard and Articuno forever would have likewise given a free pass to Mega Mawile and Aegislash.

[Heather]

Well, Talon, I see your point saying that Smogon won't listen to a whelp like me. I did make a pint late in Aegi's test that the meta hasn't been settling at all lately despite a need to do so, and while some patrons of the thread responded, the ban council clearly did not. Over where I am, I'm not missing these folks at all. *sigh*

Such a shame. Oh well, Pokebattle is great and I feel that if you want a balanced meta, it's cost benefit team building might appeal to you in that you're either forced to run a team reliant on a few expensive mons or create a more balanced team or somewhere in between.

[rotomotorz]

There really needs to be a simulator where people can just battle in singles with only bans in the most ridiculous of things(Like Perish Song Mega Gengar)

[Heather]

Pokebattle actually doesn't feel that complex bans are the devil and as such only bans prankster and swagger as a combo and not swagger itself, and stuff like that. Huzzah!

[Shuckle]

If that's the case, I think they've just succeeded, Talon. I don't think we're going to see any more bans until ORAS, since HO doesn't have very many of its speedy new toys left. Mega Aerodactyl, if ANYTHING, or maybe Mega Heracross, but that's about it and they don't see much use.

[Princess Ana]

Thundurus, Mega Charizard X, Landorus, Mega Medicham, Mega Pinsir are all possible

Mega Hera is in no way HO. It's slow.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Shuckle

If that's the case, I think they've just succeeded, Talon. I don't think we're going to see any more bans until ORAS, since HO doesn't have very many of its speedy new toys left. Mega Aerodactyl, if ANYTHING, or maybe Mega Heracross, but that's about it and they don't see much use.

I don't know. I often hear about Mega Charizard X performing as a premier stall breaker thanks to his brute force with Dragon Dance, Tough Claws, and his arsenal of physical contact moves. But how much of a threat he is to competent stall teams, I've no idea. Of course there's never a day that doesn't go by without someone bemoaning the brokenness of Talonflame. But that's one Pokémon that, based on my own use of it in the 3DS game, I just can't imagine stall being very scared of. Like, how scared is a Hippowdon really going to be of a Talonflame? Then you've got things like Mega Medicham, creatures who had previously not been very good in upper OU but who are now toted as premiere attackers in the tier. Again, how true that is I have no idea. But I guess my point is this: Mega Charizard X, Talonflame, Mega Medicham -- there's no shortage of names for potential HO suspects. So if we see an HO candidate going up between now and ORAS, it supports the interpretation that the OU ban council is biased in support of stall. And if we see no such HO candidates going up, well then, maybe all of this naysaying will prove in the end to have been inappropriate. Man would I love for that to be the case, but boy if I'm not doubtful that it will be.

[Shuckle]

Welp. Looks like it's time for FUCK YOU SMOGON. I'm going to play Hyper Offense until ORAS comes out.

Wow that was down to the wire.

So far my experience is that hyper offense is hard to do well D:

[SoS]

... So what do you think's next on the chopping block?

[Princess Ana]

Originally Posted by blazeVA

Thundurus, Mega Charizard X, Landorus, Mega Medicham, Mega Pinsir are all possible

Most likely the first two however.

[Cloneblazer12]

Originally Posted by blazeVA

Thundurus, Mega Charizard X, Landorus, Mega Medicham, Mega Pinsir are all possible

Mega Hera is in no way HO. It's slow.

Just piping in to say that mega Hera has quickly risen to the top, and that the speed isn't really that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things cuz his role is a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. He shits on stall and has the capability to take on bulky offense and balance, as well as some pokes on HO (sand rush Excadrill, for example) thanks to his absurd bulk. He's become relatively common as of late and is only used on HO / Bulky offense (some balance too, but even then it's balance offense).

Also I supported the Mawile ban. I loved her to death but she was pretty fucking ridiculous.

[Princess Ana]

The only issue I had with the Mega Mawile ban was that the meta was NOT given a chance to settle after Aegislash. I think its possible a new Pokemon could have arisen that was held back by Aegislash that could check Mega Mawile. But a week? No. That's insane and I've heard its only going to be more of the same.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

Also I supported the Mawile ban. I loved her to death but she was pretty fucking ridiculous.

Player: I wish that Mawile were good in OU.
Game Freak: Your wish is my command! *invents Mega Mawile*
Player: Well I can't use this. This is far too good for OU. We must ban it!
Game Freak:

How I see most of the rags-to-riches mega bans thus far.

[Jerichi]

I've totally lost all hope for Gen VI OU at this point. I'm just gonna stick with my nichey Triples and LC and whatnot.

[Shuckle]

So it turns out that Ferrothorn can basically ignore Heracross, making it not that great of a stallbreaker. I like it, but it has plenty of flaws. It feels like having that high of an attack stat should let it OHKO things it hits neutrally, but it feels like the only way you're getting more than a 3HKO is if you have a move that hits super effectively, which sucks.

[Princess Ana]

>Ferrothorn ignores Heracross

...it does have Close Combat

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

[Shuckle]

I took Arm Thrust because I'm an idiot.

[Talon87]

The mega form isn't always your best bet. Or even when it is, the non-mega form is still often very good.

That's definitely the case for Heracross. Even if Mega Heracross can objectively be shown to be better than ordinary Heracross, there is still a lot of power to be had in using Choice Scarf Moxie Heracross. I'm not sure why it's so low on the page right now (I blame the site overhaul) but click here and Ctrl+F for the words "This is one of the best". You'll find the Choice Scarf set that Heracross was known for in OU for much of Gen 4 and all of Gen 5. Back in Gen 4, he was obliged to run Guts; the ability rarely activated but meh, it was still something. But Gen 5 brought with it Moxie, and this made Choice Scarf Heracross a real terror.

If you don't want to be choice locked, you don't have to be. There are other sets you'll find in the Gen 5 article that work well. (Though be mindful: that top set is for Doubles. ) OU Heracross was known to occasionally run Flame Orb w/ Guts. He would probably appreciate a speed boost from allies somehow (his base speed is only 85), and he's still going to despise Talonflame's priority Brave Birds; but if you can get Talonflame off the field and somehow pass a speed boost along to this guy (or set up Sticky Web and keep it up?), then not only will you have speed and power but you'll have the freedom to select a different move each turn as well. You won't mind that you're on a timer at that point: three or four turns and it'll be gg.

I've not used a Heracross on PS or P-O myself ... possibly ever O_o ... but Stlbk used to use one back in the waning days of Gen 4 to great effect. I know it can be good without the mega form. So if you're feeling like Skill Link Mega Heracross is letting you down but you really want Heracross's package of attacks and STABs, then consider giving his non-mega form a try. And hell: that then frees you up to try a different mega instead.

For what it's worth, Heracross places 43rd amongst OU players in July 2014 with Elos of 1825 or greater. He doesn't fare any better in the general usage stats: 45th place amongst all OU players last month. So he's decent in XY, "Top 50 material," even ... but (at least not by the end of July) he hasn't appeared to be the next big thing.

[Shuckle]

This one made me really mad.

[Kyro12]

Yeah, he got lucky with the Sleep and everything, but I feel like "Don't let him set up to +6" should really be the takeaway from that.

[DaisyInari]

"Horseshit," my opponent says! Not my fault Hydro Pump has such bad accuracy xd;

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by DaisyInari

"Horseshit," my opponent says! Not my fault Hydro Pump has such bad accuracy xd;

I hate people like him. Too stupid and/or too unskilled to recognize that the very thing they're complaining about is something which occurred more often in the match in their favor than it did in yours. All of those Blue Flare misses of your Reshiram's, for starters. I feel like Hydro Pump missed twice all match and hit the other six times. (Can't be bothered to check.) If so, then that's 75% accuracy ... which fits pretty nicely with the predicted 80% accuracy of the move. (Indeed, you'd have had more right to complain than he would have had his Hydro Pump only missed one time. 87.5% is further from 80% than 75% is.)

One thing I enjoy about Random Battle matches above 1700 Elo is that people like him are practically non-existent. So it's both a surprise and a disappointment to see that you had to face a player with the manners of a low-caliber turd at such a high rung on the ladder.