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Old 04-25-2021, 08:56 PM   #1
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Umbreon Bond and Clarity Rework

Hey everybody, we have some thoughts on the current issues with Bond and Clarity and would like to push forward some suggested changes for discussion. Please read through this as you can and let us know your thoughts! Apologies for the lack of formatting as we wanted to get this out to you all in a timely manner.

Bond

Reducing requirements to allow for easier access to evolution and movepool growth. At this time this is just a squishing of stages.

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. Frustration is at its maximum power.
10: Your Pokemon can utilize the Move Relearner. Happiness evolutions can occur at this stage.
15: Your Pokemon can utilize any TM - even those outside its species limitations. The Pokemon can learn custom move Gummi Bomb OR an EM/MT move of choice.
20: The Pokemon can learn custom move Guardian Terrain OR an Advanced/Shadow move of choice.* Natural Advanced moves can now be learned by this Pokemon at the MT.
30: MAXIMUM. Daycare levels earned for this Pokemon are doubled. This Pokemon will earn a special aura for being max Bond. Pokemon at both max level and max Bond learn custom move Defensive Shield OR one Advanced/Shadow move* & one EM/MT move. Return is at maximum power.

We do also want to discuss the way Advanced/Shadow Moves are handled here in conjunction with having to forfeit a Custom Move to be learnt, and want the community's thoughts on the matter.

Bond Tracking

We wish to reduce the policing of bond tracking over members. This is both due to the large amount of time required to check tracking of bond that could better serve the game elsewhere, as well as the fact that we will be assuming positive intent by the community and that there will not be any dishonesty in your tracking. Any disputes on this can then be looked into on a case by case basis.

Bond as RP Rewards

This is being included based off of prior discussions with concerns to bond farming and Pokemon not being interacted with within said posts. The proposed change would be 250 words to gain bond for one Pokemon, with every additional 100 words allowing you to claim for another Pokemon in your party (750 words allowing the full party of 6). As this does conflict with the above statement of policing, we greatly request community feedback on both points so we know where everyone stands and can move forward accordingly.

Clarity

Reducing from a system of 0 through -30 to 0 through -20 to better allow ease of transition to becoming a Shadow or for purification, with -20 now being the new point of a Pokemon closing their heart. This means that housing a Pokemon in a Shadow Ball would get you halfway to closing their heart.

KOs no longer being counted as a reduction in clarity.
- As of this time, farming getting your own Pokemon KO'd in raids is the best way to reduce clarity. This is both seen as abuse to the Pokemon by some members and is also not a consistent way to actually achieve the goal in a reasonable timeframe.

Suggestion: Adding sections to zones where clarity can be reduced in the same way that clarity can be gained by most RP areas. These would be areas written up by the ZAs to make sure they fit within their zones, and some amount of lore would need figured out to make sure this fits. We especially would like to hear community comments on this at this time.
- This would help to replace KOs as being the best source of farming, and is being proposed as -2 clarity per qualifying RP post (same requirements as bond) within these areas, so at maximum you would need 10 posts to close a Pokemon's heart.

Shadow Moves

Item Shadium-Z to be added, allowing use of a Shadow Z Move.

Shadow Z Move needs a name! Give us some suggestions!

Shadow Max Move Name Suggestion: Max Overshadow; Feel free to suggest something else!

Shadow Max Move Effect: BP scaling would be equivalent to Max Knuckle or Max Ooze due to Shadow attacks dealing super effective damage to all non-Shadow Pokemon. This move would set up Shadow Sky as a secondary effect.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:11 PM   #2
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A few thoughts for the moment;

1: I'm cool with kinda squishing the Bond stages like that.

2: I feel like Shadownium Z sounds better than Shadium Z, but that might be just me.

3: My idea for the Shadow Z-Move name is Soulstained Beatdown.

4: My idea for the Shadow Max Move is Max Malice.

I'll take a closer look and get in some more of my thoughts a little later, whether I edit them into this post or make a new one.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaze View Post
Bond as RP Rewards

This is being included based off of prior discussions with concerns to bond farming and Pokemon not being interacted with within said posts. The proposed change would be 250 words to gain bond for one Pokemon, with every additional 100 words allowing you to claim for another Pokemon in your party (750 words allowing the full party of 6). As this does conflict with the above statement of policing, we greatly request community feedback on both points so we know where everyone stands and can move forward accordingly.
I’m gonna start here and say I don’t like the idea of increasing the word count, even incentivizing it as “optional”. I know that the “reattract inactive members” is not the topic at hand but I do think that this change would be fairly counter to that.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:24 PM   #4
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As someone relatively inexperienced with FB, I can't really give much meaningful input on any of the more "involved" mechanics, but I'll try to say what I can. I won't be covering clarity in this post, as I haven't even touched the mechanic yet.

Reducing the bond requirements for every "level" sounds like a good idea overall, but sometimes adventures can happen very quickly, such as the one that I had in New Fizz earlier this month. If these changes were to pass, my Porygon would already be at max bond despite me having only been here for a few weeks—this might be intended so that others can increase their entire team's bond quickly, but it seems a little too imbalanced in the case of new members.

I wasn't completely aware that Bond was being policed; I simply updated it when I felt like I wanted to do some bookkeeping and nobody raised any fuss when I wasn't staying on top of it. Being a little more relaxed about it is a welcome change, but it doesn't solve the problem of how tedious it is to track it in the first place. Establishing a word count requirement could help alleviate this problem, but it doesn't really do much for users who spend a considerable amount of effort writing their posts.

The phrase "bond as RP rewards" did kind of plant an idea in my head, although I'm unsure if it's a good one or not. What if extra stat bonuses and modifiers were given out by ZAs/updators as rewards during RPs? I'm not sure if it was ever discussed, but going beyond levels and rewarding something extra for the user's Pokémon based on the actions that they take could make RPs way more interesting and bring focus back to well-written posts as opposed to simply making FB a numbers game. This idea's a bit of a moonshot but I think with enough development it might work.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:31 PM   #5
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I have a couple questions:

1. Less policing: What is this supposed to look like? From my limited experience of the game, it seems like bonds are pretty minimally policed anyway? Like there's a shop to keep track of stuff (i.e. the Bonding Retreat), but no one actually updates it. So, there really isn't much police work done anyway? I guess shop owners want links to bond to verify a Pokemon can learn a move but they don't actually verify that the user is lying about the bond in the provided link, do they? So, I'm not really sure how much more the police-work can get cut down? Is the plan to get rid of the Bonding Retreat and not require linking when teaching unnatural moves?

2. Bonds as RP Rewards: I'm kinda confused on this. What exactly was the bond gain from RP previously? My understanding was that 250+ word replies got you +1 bond to all Pokemon you used within the post (the rules in the Bonding Retreat say "Pokemon increase Bond by +1 for every post they are used in a zone."). This changes reads as if in the case that you were using multiple of your own Pokemon (e.g. let's say it's a double battle) and RPed only 250 words, you'd have to pick only one to give the bond to. That kinda seems too restrictive? I assume this change to make it more restrictive is intentional to address concerns of "bond farming"? I haven't been around long enough to ever come across these concerns nor did I ever think it was a thing. Do people really give bonds to Pokemon they haven't used? Or do they just randomly throw a Pokemon in the mix to get it bond? If they're able to successfully RP it, why penalize it? As for the policing aspect, this change would probably require more policing than maintaining the status quo. Again, I don't really have much insight into bond farming concerns to comment on whether the pros of this change outweigh the cons, but from my standpoint, it doesn't seem like a worthwhile change as it's written. Though I do like the notion of bond share (a la Exp. Share). Would allowing people to claim +1 for all Pokemon used in a single post if it's +250 words and also doing bond sharing for each additional 100 words be fine or does that make bond gain too easy that it's not even worth tracking at that point?


As a general comment, when I first started out (and even now), bond was definitely something that I was concerned about quite a bit. Mainly because the bond ladder seemed really hard to scale (esp. getting access to quadruple levels and even happiness evos). Bond is not as easily gained as levels and definitely gained at a slower pace (gummis are not easily accessible, adventures take time, there isn't a store that just hands out gummis or a bond version of the daycare). It definitely makes it harder for happiness-evos, so I'm happy to see the ladder get squished. I do believe that even with the squished ladder, bonds are still hard to come by, so keeping the existing rewards and tacking on the bond share could be better than restricting the existing reward to bring along bond share.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Missingno. Master View Post
A few thoughts for the moment;

1: I'm cool with kinda squishing the Bond stages like that.

2: I feel like Shadownium Z sounds better than Shadium Z, but that might be just me.

3: My idea for the Shadow Z-Move name is Soulstained Beatdown.

4: My idea for the Shadow Max Move is Max Malice.

I'll take a closer look and get in some more of my thoughts a little later, whether I edit them into this post or make a new one.
Shadium Z was put forward to try to keep it simple, but Shadownium Z isn't exactly an issue if people like it enough.

Similarly, we wanted the Max Move to include the word Shadow as all Shadow moves currently do, with the Z-Move explicitly not including it, but again, if there's enough support for one thing over the other, we're happy to run with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggggg5 View Post
I’m gonna start here and say I don’t like the idea of increasing the word count, even incentivizing it as “optional”. I know that the “reattract inactive members” is not the topic at hand but I do think that this change would be fairly counter to that.
For the record, I fully agree with this, and quite frankly it's my opinion that Bond, as well as most other things used for improving your Pokemon, should be more easily earned, not less. This was only written up as a proposal based off of when Bond was last discussed nearly a year ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blu3shift View Post
As someone relatively inexperienced with FB, I can't really give much meaningful input on any of the more "involved" mechanics, but I'll try to say what I can. I won't be covering clarity in this post, as I haven't even touched the mechanic yet.

Reducing the bond requirements for every "level" sounds like a good idea overall, but sometimes adventures can happen very quickly, such as the one that I had in New Fizz earlier this month. If these changes were to pass, my Porygon would already be at max bond despite me having only been here for a few weeks—this might be intended so that others can increase their entire team's bond quickly, but it seems a little too imbalanced in the case of new members.

I wasn't completely aware that Bond was being policed; I simply updated it when I felt like I wanted to do some bookkeeping and nobody raised any fuss when I wasn't staying on top of it. Being a little more relaxed about it is a welcome change, but it doesn't solve the problem of how tedious it is to track it in the first place. Establishing a word count requirement could help alleviate this problem, but it doesn't really do much for users who spend a considerable amount of effort writing their posts.

The phrase "bond as RP rewards" did kind of plant an idea in my head, although I'm unsure if it's a good one or not. What if extra stat bonuses and modifiers were given out by ZAs/updators as rewards during RPs? I'm not sure if it was ever discussed, but going beyond levels and rewarding something extra for the user's Pokémon based on the actions that they take could make RPs way more interesting and bring focus back to well-written posts as opposed to simply making FB a numbers game. This idea's a bit of a moonshot but I think with enough development it might work.
So truth be told, gaining bond to max quickly isn't something we should be afraid of, even for newer members. It means you're participating in the game and should be rewarded as such. The trick is figuring out where is an appropriate level of reward, as we do want to make sure that people are able to grow their teams without sitting with a small army of level 1 Pokemon with no movepools.

I love your last point, just by the by, not going to go too in depth on it here, as we do have plans to discuss RP Rewards as a whole in the very near future.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by grassyglide View Post
I have a couple questions:

1. Less policing: What is this supposed to look like? From my limited experience of the game, it seems like bonds are pretty minimally policed anyway? Like there's a shop to keep track of stuff (i.e. the Bonding Retreat), but no one actually updates it. So, there really isn't much police work done anyway? I guess shop owners want links to bond to verify a Pokemon can learn a move but they don't actually verify that the user is lying about the bond in the provided link, do they? So, I'm not really sure how much more the police-work can get cut down? Is the plan to get rid of the Bonding Retreat and not require linking when teaching unnatural moves?

2. Bonds as RP Rewards: I'm kinda confused on this. What exactly was the bond gain from RP previously? My understanding was that 250+ word replies got you +1 bond to all Pokemon you used within the post (the rules in the Bonding Retreat say "Pokemon increase Bond by +1 for every post they are used in a zone."). This changes reads as if in the case that you were using multiple of your own Pokemon (e.g. let's say it's a double battle) and RPed only 250 words, you'd have to pick only one to give the bond to. That kinda seems too restrictive? I assume this change to make it more restrictive is intentional to address concerns of "bond farming"? I haven't been around long enough to ever come across these concerns nor did I ever think it was a thing. Do people really give bonds to Pokemon they haven't used? Or do they just randomly throw a Pokemon in the mix to get it bond? If they're able to successfully RP it, why penalize it? As for the policing aspect, this change would probably require more policing than maintaining the status quo. Again, I don't really have much insight into bond farming concerns to comment on whether the pros of this change outweigh the cons, but from my standpoint, it doesn't seem like a worthwhile change as it's written. Though I do like the notion of bond share (a la Exp. Share). Would allowing people to claim +1 for all Pokemon used in a single post if it's +250 words and also doing bond sharing for each additional 100 words be fine or does that make bond gain too easy that it's not even worth tracking at that point?


As a general comment, when I first started out (and even now), bond was definitely something that I was concerned about quite a bit. Mainly because the bond ladder seemed really hard to scale (esp. getting access to quadruple levels and even happiness evos). Bond is not as easily gained as levels and definitely gained at a slower pace (gummis are not easily accessible, adventures take time, there isn't a store that just hands out gummis or a bond version of the daycare). It definitely makes it harder for happiness-evos, so I'm happy to see the ladder get squished. I do believe that even with the squished ladder, bonds are still hard to come by, so keeping the existing rewards and tacking on the bond share could be better than restricting the existing reward to bring along bond share.
This came in as I was writing up the previous post, so whole post just to itself for you!

By and large, policing is supposed to be a monthly tally of all records, in the same vein as Candies or the Bank. This discussion is to serve to gauge where the community actually wants it to sit. As far as I personally am concerned it could very well be a number you update in you Squad post and nothing more, but it's not solely my opinion that matters.

For your second point, see my response above. We had some issues with people thinking that others were abusing the bond system that currently exists by bringing six Pokemon with them and writing a 250 word post and claiming bond for them all. Again, I see no issue with that, but the proposal in this thread is solely so that we have a talking point on the matter and can gauge opinions.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:49 PM   #8
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A few things, given that I have a few internal musings of resetting and not getting ahead of myself on my third attempt:

Bond Changes: Yes. Yes to all of that. It always seemed weird to me that Happiness evolution, which was a more basic vanilla mechanic, came after the reward that made the Pokémon into Mew in terms of machine learnset. I get that it was to be more in line with how ingame requirements are a bit high, but honestly I'd have tried for something like Buneary a lot sooner under this system.

Shadow Z/Max stuff: I agree with MM that Shadownium Z is a better call, if only because there is only one case of a type-based Z-Crystal missing letters from its type outside of a vowel-ending conflict, which is the Psychium Z if memory serves. For better or for worse, Z-crystals for types do try to use the whole designation, never mind that it's a complete mystery to me how one pronounces "Waterium." As for the Z move name, I don't have any particular ideas, so I'm not too fussed about it.

As regards the Max Move, however, since its effect is planned to be setting Shadow Sky, I have a particular suggestion in mind: Max Shadowsquall. This name is in reference to the term "white squall," which refers to a sudden-onset severe windstorm that bears none of the typical warning signs of a regular squall. Since Max Moves are rather like that-intense bursts of power unleashed pretty much at will-and squalls of all kinds are associated with intense and possibly damaging storms, as I feel Shadow Sky would be thought of in-universe, I think the homage fits at least to a degree. Plus, Shadowsquall sounds cool as fuck lol.

As regards Clarity: I want to hold you at the idea of having areas in Zones particularly meant for clarity reduction because I think you're into something with it. It's no secret to anyone who's known me long enough that I don't like the concept of having one of my existing Pokémon become a Shadow, and there's a few reasons. One is that I just feel like it wouldn't fit any character I wrote to let one of their Pokémon get to such a state. Part of that is from KOs being one of the main ways to decrease clarity as of now, but I digress. The other big reason, which ties into the first a bit, is that the Shadow threshold as we have it now is basically tantamount to a Happiness value of zero, which you can have in any game that tracks the stat. Happiness checkers the world over will remark on how such a Pokémon despises you, some even going so far as to say they have an "evil" look in their eye...and yet Shadow Pokémon have never existed outside of Orre in the games. That's my other hangup-lore-wise, Shadow Pokémon have always been explicitly produced by some means that most likely goes beyond what the Clarity system entails. And again, I can't see myself writing a character that would do that to a Pokémon or let it be done to a Pokémon.

Despite this, the idea of a purification arc for a Pokémon is something I very dearly want to explore. As it stands, the way to find a Shadow Pokémon wild is to use a Silver Umbra in the Realm of Shadiws, if I recall correctly. If we're going to include some areas for the purposes of lowering Clarity, however, why not also let those places carry that particular functionality as well? The finer details of how exactly to trigger such a phenomenon can be hashed out later, but I feel like if we're relying on Clarity as the means to Shadowfying something, and we plan on having areas meant to help bring that change about, allowing Trainers to in some way encounter wild Pokémon for capture who have already undergone the change not only helps people with hang ups like mine get over them while still having the opportunity to have and purify a Shadow Pokémon, it makes the Clarity idea feel more like a part of the universe than a pure game mechanic.

As regards the actual points, I think a -20 to 0 scale is a good idea if we're keeping Shadow obtaining mechanics otherwise identical, as a way to keep it on the same scale as the revised Bond ladder.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:51 PM   #9
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I feel like Sneaze is handling my thoughts on the matter well but I did see something that caught my eye that MM said.

I would like to propose to change the Z-Move name suggestion to Soulstained Penumbra. It kinda fits that super edgy vibe better than Beatdown.

Edit: Loving Heather's Max Move name.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:53 PM   #10
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I just want to say I wholeheartedly second Max Shadowsquall. That does indeed sound cool as fuck.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:56 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by blu3shift View Post
Reducing the bond requirements for every "level" sounds like a good idea overall, but sometimes adventures can happen very quickly, such as the one that I had in New Fizz earlier this month. If these changes were to pass, my Porygon would already be at max bond despite me having only been here for a few weeks—this might be intended so that others can increase their entire team's bond quickly, but it seems a little too imbalanced in the case of new members.
This is probably just injecting more, potentially unneeded, complexity into Bond, but what if Bond requirements decreased as a function of time? In other words, the longer (in real world time) you've had a Pokémon, the lower its Bond requirements are. For example, I've had my Woobat, Leukocyte, for around four months, having obtained her in December while you've had Epoch for around a month IIRC. Perhaps their bond requirements would look something like this:

Code:
Leukocyte (4 months):
0 - neutral 
10 - Move relearner + happiness evolutions
20 - Custom Moves
30 - Max
Code:
Epoch (1 month):
0 - neutral
20 - Move relearner + happiness evo
35 - Custom Moves
40 - Max
Basically, the longer you've had a Pokémon in real-time, the lower its Bond requirements are.


Edit: Nevermind, I agree with Sneaze that increasing bond at a fast pace is more of a good thing than a bad thing. There's no need for a time-based system like this.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:58 PM   #12
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As regards Clarity: I want to hold you at the idea of having areas in Zones particularly meant for clarity reduction because I think you're into something with it. It's no secret to anyone who's known me long enough that I don't like the concept of having one of my existing Pokémon become a Shadow, and there's a few reasons. One is that I just feel like it wouldn't fit any character I wrote to let one of their Pokémon get to such a state. Part of that is from KOs being one of the main ways to decrease clarity as of now, but I digress. The other big reason, which ties into the first a bit, is that the Shadow threshold as we have it now is basically tantamount to a Happiness value of zero, which you can have in any game that tracks the stat. Happiness checkers the world over will remark on how such a Pokémon despises you, some even going so far as to say they have an "evil" look in their eye...and yet Shadow Pokémon have never existed outside of Orre in the games. That's my other hangup-lore-wise, Shadow Pokémon have always been explicitly produced by some means that most likely goes beyond what the Clarity system entails. And again, I can't see myself writing a character that would do that to a Pokémon or let it be done to a Pokémon.

Despite this, the idea of a purification arc for a Pokémon is something I very dearly want to explore. As it stands, the way to find a Shadow Pokémon wild is to use a Silver Umbra in the Realm of Shadiws, if I recall correctly. If we're going to include some areas for the purposes of lowering Clarity, however, why not also let those places carry that particular functionality as well? The finer details of how exactly to trigger such a phenomenon can be hashed out later, but I feel like if we're relying on Clarity as the means to Shadowfying something, and we plan on having areas meant to help bring that change about, allowing Trainers to in some way encounter wild Pokémon for capture who have already undergone the change not only helps people with hang ups like mine get over them while still having the opportunity to have and purify a Shadow Pokémon, it makes the Clarity idea feel more like a part of the universe than a pure game mechanic.

As regards the actual points, I think a -20 to 0 scale is a good idea if we're keeping Shadow obtaining mechanics otherwise identical, as a way to keep it on the same scale as the revised Bond ladder.
Just responding to this in particular. I very much wanted to go pretty much with this route. It's actually something I brought up a full year ago prior to the Realm of Shadows being reverted to a shop. I would like for the Realm of Shadows to remain as such, since not everyone will want to do an adventure like this, but 'm also of the opinion that we should be allowing clarity gain or the finding of Shadow Pokemon within these designated areas.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:23 PM   #13
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I would love to third the notion of the Max Shadowsquall, it's cool as fuck.

I don't really have much to add in terms of thoughts and opinions otherwise at this exact moment. Heather has already summed everything I would like to have said up in a much better way.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:40 PM   #14
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Revised Bond Ladder
1. I'm fine with squishing the ladder down, though will we need conversion methods or will everything with Bond between 30 and 50 just automatically max out?

2. To be honest, the main reason I haven't chosen Bond moves for my Pokemon is because I would have to pick between Advanced/Shadow moves and Custom Moves, so I'd also be interested in anything regarding that.

3. Should we still keep the special aura at max Bond and level? Considering we haven't really had anything come of that since...auras were first suggested?

Bond Tracking
Could we do this like Rare Candies, where tracking is optional but here's a place to do it if you want to? Though, I suppose there's nothing stopping people from tracking it themselves somewhere else.

Bond as RP Rewards
I...would prefer to keep the current Bond-reward system as is, if this is the only other option. But, I'm very interested in blu3's idea of bonuses/modifiers as zone rewards.

Clarity
I am down with shrinking Clarity down to -20 and removing KOs as a method of Clarity reduction as long as we have some other way to effectively reduce Clarity.

If I'm remembering correctly, though, wasn't there concerns regarding adding Shadow sections to zones because of artistic vision? I'm not saying it'll be the case now, but I believe one of the previous concerns was that not every zone could necessarily add a Shadow section and the Shadow sections that would exist wouldn't necessarily appeal to someone looking for Shadows.

Aside from that, I support Heather's point regarding finding Shadow Pokemon in the Shadow sections of zones, if that idea goes forward.

Also, wasn't both Shadow Pokemon and Silver Umbra already supposed to be available as zone rewards? Or am I misremembering previous discussions?

Shadow Moves
Also supporting Shadownium Z and Max Shadowsquall as names.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:49 PM   #15
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Revised Bond Ladder
1. I'm fine with squishing the ladder down, though will we need conversion methods or will everything with Bond between 30 and 50 just automatically max out?

2. To be honest, the main reason I haven't chosen Bond moves for my Pokemon is because I would have to pick between Advanced/Shadow moves and Custom Moves, so I'd also be interested in anything regarding that.

3. Should we still keep the special aura at max Bond and level? Considering we haven't really had anything come of that since...auras were first suggested?
Just automatically maxing seems the best way to handle it, since the entire point is to reduce the grind. No need to overcomplicate.

Yeah I very much am not personally going to be commenting much on the Advanced/Shadow moves vs Custom Moves bit, as I'm walking around with a living move ocean and everything I bring forward on the matter would be grain of salt heavy, but I just do not personally like having to choose here and would especially like to hear other thoughts.

Special aura can be kept imo, if anything we can look into what that means as opposed to opting to scrap something that could be worked into something fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myahoo View Post
Bond Tracking
Could we do this like Rare Candies, where tracking is optional but here's a place to do it if you want to? Though, I suppose there's nothing stopping people from tracking it themselves somewhere else.

Bond as RP Rewards
I...would prefer to keep the current Bond-reward system as is, if this is the only other option. But, I'm very interested in blu3's idea of bonuses/modifiers as zone rewards.
Tracking like Candies is absolutely an option. Its been brought forward before that everyone could simply have a single post in the thread to keep track if they want to there.

As for the running reward system, the proposed isn't the only other option, it's more that it's the most extreme we are willing to go if people want to move in that direction. Personally I'd rather move the other way and relax the amount needed for bond claims.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myahoo View Post
Clarity
I am down with shrinking Clarity down to -20 and removing KOs as a method of Clarity reduction as long as we have some other way to effectively reduce Clarity.

If I'm remembering correctly, though, wasn't there concerns regarding adding Shadow sections to zones because of artistic vision? I'm not saying it'll be the case now, but I believe one of the previous concerns was that not every zone could necessarily add a Shadow section and the Shadow sections that would exist wouldn't necessarily appeal to someone looking for Shadows.

Aside from that, I support Heather's point regarding finding Shadow Pokemon in the Shadow sections of zones, if that idea goes forward.

Also, wasn't both Shadow Pokemon and Silver Umbra already supposed to be available as zone rewards? Or am I misremembering previous discussions?

Shadow Moves
Also supporting Shadownium Z and Max Shadowsquall as names.
Yes, it was brought forward previously that it could be a creative issue. This was in part due to the fact that we had ZAs that were extremely opposed to it due to not liking the idea of Shadows even existing in FB. It's being brought up now as we effectively have two ZAs (myself and Leo, both of whom are obviously fine with idea as we're bringing it forward) and will be looking for more, so it's the best time to see how people feel on the matter.
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Old 04-26-2021, 12:22 AM   #16
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I think the creative hiccup is that people seem to be thinking of the Shadow Zones as places dedicated to Shadow Pokemon rather than areas just twisted enough that it wouldn't seem unreasonable if related phenomena were to occur there. Take the Bastion of Vacuous Dreams, for example- absolutely nothing about it demands that there have to be Shadows there, but the sinister, almost-divine air about the place makes it by far the part of the zone that makes the most sense to have some sort of psuedonatural effect on those within.

in any case, I'm all for making Shadowfication actually possible to achieve without the KO clause. As things were before, I couldn't make any progress with Cassandra for years because of how exclusive all the other ways to lose Bond were (Shadow Balls are event exclusive <and those events were few and far between>, I don't think I've ever seen a Silver Umbra come from outside the Updater Rewards, and the Fever bit requires the pokemon to already be a Shadow in the first place). With the dedicated Zone being demoted to a Shop, it only makes sense to move part of its role elsewhere- and consequently make it more accessible than it was before.

As far as name suggestions for the Shadow Z-Move go, maybe something like Delusionary Whirlpool or Malignant Umberricane could work? I like the idea of referencing the terrible storm that surrounds Citadark Isle, and edge+natural disaster theming naturally combine to create the over-the-top dramaticism Z-Move names are known for.

Quote:
in conjunction with having to forfeit a Custom Move to be learnt
If I might ask, what exactly do you mean by this? Unless I'm being blind here, I've seen Gummi Bomb, Guardian Terrain, and Defensive Shield all in their respective Bond tiers as before. Though while I'm here, would I be correct in assuming that this means that we'll removing the Lv. 100 requirement from the Defensive Shield/2nd Shadow/Advanced Move slot?
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Old 04-26-2021, 12:35 AM   #17
Missingno. Master
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What's meant by that is that if we want something to learn an Advanced or Shadow move via Bond, that means foregoing the Custom move assigned to that, as it's been a "one or the other" situation.
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Old 04-26-2021, 05:53 AM   #18
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Going to trot out my old ideas here.

Idea 1: Strip it back. Heavily.
Similar to Sneaze's but a bit harsher. Bond is no longer per post, it is per adventure. Probably +1 to +3, depending on adventure length. Ball modifiers will need redoing, bc Bond will be 0-10. Also considering a 1-5 system with a static +1 bond per adventure. Thresholds being evenly spaced, either on the old setup or more likely now on Sneaze's distro.

Quote:
0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. Frustration is at its maximum power.
2: Your Pokemon can utilize the Move Relearner. Happiness evolutions can occur at this stage.
5: Your Pokemon can utilize any TM - even those outside its species limitations. The Pokemon can learn custom move Gummi Bomb OR an EM/MT move of choice.
7: The Pokemon can learn custom move Guardian Terrain OR an Advanced/Shadow move of choice.* Natural Advanced moves can now be learned by this Pokemon at the MT.
10: MAXIMUM. Daycare levels earned for this Pokemon are doubled. This Pokemon will earn a special aura for being max Bond. Pokemon at both max level and max Bond learn custom move Defensive Shield OR one Advanced/Shadow move* & one EM/MT move. Return is at maximum power.
Idea 2: Get rid of Bond entirely.

Bond is removed entirely. As for the rewards:
-Happiness becomes "complete one adventure".
-Unnatural TMs is at level 30, or else when you have exhausted the natural pool.
-Custom, Advanced and Shadow moves are just in the MT. Usual restrictions apply.
-Move relearner is from level 20 onwards.
-Frustration/Return will need some consideration, can't think of a solid way to do it myself.
-Gummis are 1:1d for Rare Candies.
-Daycare levels doubled is either scrapped entirely or made default. That might be a discussion for another day.

Outside of these two...
-Heavily against the Bond from RP changes. We've had complaints about people struggling to reach 250 and now you're going to try to push for longer replies to get the same rewards? Part of the reason I'd like to see Bond made as a post-adventure thing, not an every-post thing.

-Clarity looks fine, but I'm hazy on how it worked ingame so I'll let others discuss that one.

-Shadow max move... Max Nocturnity. A haunting aria for the shadowy skies of endless night.
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:07 PM   #19
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I agree with compressing bond requirements. Getting to max bond, or even to 30 bond just to evolve my Woobat, seemed a little daunting to me, especially when I was a new(er) player. Large bond requirements were part of the reason why I saw/see raid replies as less a means to RP and more a way to try and get ahead in the game, however, that's a discussion for another thread.

Re: IronThunder--Respectfully, I don't like the idea of making bond a per adventure thing as I feel that would still make it difficult to earn bond in a timely manner. Both of my adventures are somewhere around nine months long, and only one is close to finishing. Having to wait nine months for a bond increase(s) seems like a bit much in my opinion, even if the bond requirements are lowered even further. I feel like a per adventure system would indirectly punish less frequent updatees, and possibly put pressure on both updaters and updatees to pump out a response.

As for claiming bond for multiple Pokémon, I don't like the idea of restricting bond so that it's only +1 for one Pokémon per 250+ words, or whatever system is set up. It just doesn't seem right that one could make a detailed response involving multiple Pokémon RPing yet only one 'mon receives a bond increase. However, I will admit that I'm not very knowledgeable with regards to how big a problem bond farming is/was. One that note, if someone believes another user is abusing bond, maybe they can just contact a mod who can then have a discussion with that user. Alternatively, perhaps which Pokémon gain(s) bond could be left to the discretion of the updater.

As for tracking bond, I will admit that I personally find it the most tedious stat to update and track. Granted, this may be because I started tracking bond in a clunky and bloated manner and became too lazy to reformat my post to something more manageable. Honestly, I wouldn't mind changing bond tracking to a honor system a la Rare Candies, if only that would make updating the Bond Retreat happen on a "quicker" (e.g. monthly) basis.


For the names, I'm going to toss my hat in with:
  • Z-crystal: Shadownium-Z
  • Z-move: Soulstained Beatdown
  • Max move: Max Shadowsquall

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Old 04-27-2021, 12:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Missingno. Master View Post
What's meant by that is that if we want something to learn an Advanced or Shadow move via Bond, that means foregoing the Custom move assigned to that, as it's been a "one or the other" situation.
Been wanting to expand on this with my thoughts- I'm not all that thrilled that it's always been a choice here between these options where there's no possibility to get the ones you didn't choose down the road, since Shadow moves, custom moves, and unnatural Advanced Moves can't be taught except as Bond rewards. I feel like we could maybe do something about that- make it so instead of having to choose, you just get the custom move, and then having at least that much Bond allows you to learn Shadow moves or unnatural Advanced Moves at the Move Tutor. This might get a little tricky since some Advanced Moves already require a certain amount of Bond to be taught in the first place, but they don't require maximum Bond. I'm thinking when we squish down Bond to cap at 30 (assuming that's the direction we're going, though I'm seeing a fair amount of support for that notion), we make it so Bond-reliant Advanced Moves can be taught at, for instance, 20 Bond, and then unnatural ones can be taught at max Bond. The ability to teach Shadow moves would also be unlocked via Bond, possibly max Bond, and maybe would cost the same as an unnatural MT move? Not sure on that one, but considering they're super effective on basically everything, I feel like something extra should be in place here.

Also, while we're on the subject, and I won't press this if I'm the only one looking to change this, but what about potentially allowing the Let's Go AMs be taught unnaturally? I could imagine this not being the best of ideas for moves like Pika Papow or Veevee Volley, of course, but the others I feel like wouldn't be too big an issue.

Also, gonna echo Spiny here in regards to Iron's idea for Bond- I don't agree with just awarding it per adventure as opposed to per post. Even if max Bond is 10, the sheer amount of time some adventures can take would make gaining Bond even more daunting than it's already been. And while I've suggested something in regards to if we axed Bond in the past, by and large I'm pretty much against the idea of actually axing it.

Speaking of stuff I've suggested before, in the same post as what I'm referring to, I also suggested something I want to bring up again, minor though it is- rename Fever to Hyper Mode. It's called Hyper Mode in Colosseum and Reverse Mode in XD, and what we have in FB is closer to Hyper Mode, in that it actually has some sort of upside. The games describe these modes as the Pokémon's emotions "rising to a fever pitch", which is where the "fever" bit came from, but come on. We have a perfectly good name for it in canon already, don't we?
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Old 04-27-2021, 07:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyShell View Post
Re: IronThunder--Respectfully, I don't like the idea of making bond a per adventure thing as I feel that would still make it difficult to earn bond in a timely manner. Both of my adventures are somewhere around nine months long, and only one is close to finishing. Having to wait nine months for a bond increase(s) seems like a bit much in my opinion, even if the bond requirements are lowered even further. I feel like a per adventure system would indirectly punish less frequent updatees, and possibly put pressure on both updaters and updatees to pump out a response.
Honestly, adventure pace is kind of just an issue that needs looking at as well. Atm we probably have about four updaters and they're covering basically everyone in fizzby, which amounts to about fourteen people. And also, part of the advantage of pushing bond to the end is that people aren't as forced to push to 250, which has been noted as being a major motivation killer. I don't think I've ever made a zone post that was natively 250+ words, I think my highest was 190 or so. But, this isn't the thread for that, and there is an updater guide somewhere in the works iirc unless that got saltnuked. And for the record, axing it is pretty much the line I was going for, I just wanted an alternative to propose as well short of "burn it all down lmao".
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Old 04-27-2021, 09:52 AM   #22
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At work so just a short statement here. MM's proposal on handling Advanced and Shadow moves seems like a perfectly reasonable one.

On that note, the mods unanimously agree with MM's proposal to add LGPE Advanced Moves to the list of moves that can be learned unnaturally in this way, unless there are any objections to this.

Edit: Just being clear, not ignoring you Iron, your points just deserve a more well thought out response than I can currently provide at work.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:00 AM   #23
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So, I want to start off by first saying I'm hard against the idea of tying Bond to finished Adventures, since I don't think it's a feasible way of earning gains any faster (myself having only ever managed to complete one Adventure in all my time in FB). Also not keen on extra Bond being rewarded by more words for reasons others have pointed out. That stated, I'm going to propose/agree with some radical changes that largely do away with Bond('s substantial influence) altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironthunder View Post
Idea 2: Get rid of Bond entirely.

Bond is removed entirely. As for the rewards:
-Happiness becomes "complete one adventure".
-Unnatural TMs is at level 30, or else when you have exhausted the natural pool.
-Custom, Advanced and Shadow moves are just in the MT. Usual restrictions apply.
-Move relearner is from level 20 onwards.
-Frustration/Return will need some consideration, can't think of a solid way to do it myself.
-Gummis are 1:1d for Rare Candies.
-Daycare levels doubled is either scrapped entirely or made default. That might be a discussion for another day.
My suggested tweaks:

-Bond is condensed back to a 0-10 scale, as Beauty/Happiness Points originally were. Happiness Evolutions occur at 10 Bond.
-Unnatural TMs can be taught by default, as was the case when I first signed up for FB (and a major appeal about the game to me, since it allows for low-Leveled 'mons with shallow Movepools to be just as versatile).
-Custom, Advanced and Shadow moves are just in the MT. Usual restrictions apply. Bond requirements for natural AMs are removed. (However we can look into alternatives of learning these unnaturally, perhaps as a FC Reward instead? Also for thematic purposes CMs Gummi Bomb and Guardian Terrain could still be connected to Bond if people prefer.)
-Move Relearner is available by default. (Again, I feel the advantage of this is to aid players in expanding their less experienced 'mons' Movepools to be more viable for Adventuring in Zones.)
-Frustration/Return operate on the 0-10 scale.
-Yummi Gummis still give 1 Bond, Mysterious can give 2(?) Bond benefits from Balls/other Items tbd.
-Daycare Levels are doubled by default, since we were just discussing ways of increasing Level gains for players. (If for some reason a player only wants a 'mon to gain one Level this can also be an available option.)

Basically, the only real use of Bond will once again be for Happiness Evolutions, so for those who find it unnecessary/cumbersome to keep close track of they can simply choose not to if it's not required/doesn't benefit them. This can also cut down heavily on the need for "policing" logs, although either way I'm all for just relying on an honor system.

Don't really have an opinion on Clarity/names for Shadow Moves at this time, so I'll let those invested come to a decision.

Last edited by lilboocorsola; 04-28-2021 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 04-28-2021, 02:55 AM   #24
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Agree with all of these except the whole "250 = 1, 350 = 2, etc." rule. I feel like that doesn't really change things because a reply could easily be 350+ but only a few words could involve the second Pokemon collecting bond. A better way could be a specific amount of words required for bond to be collected for that specific Pokemon. Like, "you must Rp with a minimum of 30-50 words for Bond to be collected" or something along those lines.

Absolutely not a fan of removing Bond all together though. That sounds like it could get very messy very quickly, and a big game-changer isn't exactly what the community needs right now, in my opinion.

Edit: Bond conversion shouldnt be a big thing, by the way. Just do simple proportion and round up

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Old 04-28-2021, 03:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCreeperKid View Post
Agree with all of these except the whole "250 = 1, 350 = 2, etc." rule. I feel like that doesn't really change things because a reply could easily be 350+ but only a few words could involve the second Pokemon collecting bond. A better way could be a specific amount of words required for bond to be collected for that specific Pokemon. Like, "you must Rp with a minimum of 30-50 words for Bond to be collected" or something along those lines.

Absolutely not a fan of removing Bond all together though. That sounds like it could get very messy very quickly, and a big game-changer isn't exactly what the community needs right now, in my opinion.

Edit: Bond conversion shouldnt be a big thing, by the way. Just do simple proportion and round up
While I will agree on not removing bond altogether, I kinda have to disagree as to "it shouldn't be a big thing"

Bond Is and Will be a big thing. It's still going to be a big thing until everything is properly sorted out and it's not too easy, nor too hard to obtain bond. I feel that having a minimum RP requirement ( and I am just using this for an example here ) of 30-50 words for bond to be collected would complicate how the reply system works.

Say your an updator and your updating this person in the zone and you're doing your best to give them a well thought out and engaging plot... and they don't really give you a lot of room to work with by them simply only meeting a small requirement so they can gain the bond points they want/need.

Now I am not saying everyone should be like writing short novels or essays and stuff like that, what I am trying to get across is that when you have a updatee who... only posts with a minimum word count that small to meet the requirements to gain bond or the likes, it feels like you have to either make sure they are giving flat decisive orders or blatantly stating where they want to go and what they want to do and it feels lopsided and doesn't necessarily make you as a updator feel too motivated to write, that and probably tired because you'd either have to practically drag people along.

TLDR, Bond should be a bit of effort to earn it, but where that effort bar is placed is a big deal.

If we dropped Bond RP claim min to like oh 150~ then I feel that would be a better bar to meet, with more opportunities to claim more should you feel up to the task. Personally, I have no issue at least whipping out a 100 - 150 word reply as my base and then working it into a 250+ RP response, but I am trying to think of how to make it easier, yet still rewarding to both sides on things.


Edit: these are midnight thoughts that I've been pondering... I may come back to revise this sometime in the morning
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