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Old 11-07-2016, 01:08 AM   #2776
Talon87
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Originally Posted by Rangeet View Post
Just out of curiosity, Talon - have reconsidered voting for a third party, or are you still going to? And which third party, anyway?
Loaded question. I have repeatedly, repeatedly said I will be writing in.
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:15 AM   #2777
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Sorry, I must have missed that you were gonna write in. I only remember you saying you were not voting Clinton or Trump.
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:05 AM   #2778
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Can I just say the Dems have fucked up putting Hillary in now, because short of her not running for reelection it's practically certain that the Republicans will get major wins in 2020, which means more 2010 style ratfucking!
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:14 AM   #2779
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2018 is more pivotal than 2020 on that front. It's much more likely we'll see a conservative backlash in two years time than four years.
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:33 AM   #2780
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Originally Posted by Rangeet View Post
Yes I'm sure Donald Trump, the man who wants to reimplement Stop and Frisk, the man who asked black communities "What do you have to lose?" is the guy who wants to help black people.

You are ignoring facts like crazy. You're ignoring history like crazy.

German politicians, too, thought they could "tame" Hitler when he came to power. Why don't you have a look at some more parallels.

But really, if you weren't convinced by everything we linked that Trump was racist, the only conclusion to make is that you and the rest of the world have completely different definitions of racism.
You realize that most of the urban areas that blacks are suffering in are long-time democrat strongholds... And that keeping blacks down and keeping them on the gov't teat is part of the Dems plan, right?

E-Verify/Wall/Anything to tackle illegals will help teen and minority unemployment.
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:35 AM   #2781
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If Hillary wins, and the Republicans ACTUALLY want a shot at beating her, I hope to god they actually try putting up a competent candidate for a change (Well, or maybe I don't - we'll have to see who they can toss at her, because frankly there's a 99% chance it will be someone terrible, as usual). I can't remember the last time the Republicans put up a competent candidate. Everybody is always so fond of the Reagan years because that's about how long it's been since the party has been able to put forth someone who actually carries themselves well and doesn't come off as either a blubbering moron or a lunatic. The only two candidates I can think of that even come close to something like that would be Rubio and Paul Ryan. Romney was close but he had too much baggage and was too 'corporate'.
Romney really had no baggage, yet the media played along with making him some kind of Mormon Hitler, accusing him of murder, and using lines like the binders and the 47% to paint him as awful. Trump is a response to this, as well. If the media is going to call Romney Hitler, well fuck you, let's go all in.
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:15 AM   #2782
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Quote:
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You realize that most of the urban areas that blacks are suffering in are long-time democrat strongholds... And that keeping blacks down and keeping them on the gov't teat is part of the Dems plan, right?

E-Verify/Wall/Anything to tackle illegals will help teen and minority unemployment.
Correlation does not equal causation. Such "inner cities" are Democrat strongholds because the Democrats are the only party who want to actively fight poverty and offer social welfare. What kind of ridiculous conspiracy theory is it to think Democrats intentionally "keep blacks down"?

And...the type of work illegal immigrants do has practically no overlap overlap with the type of work most american teenagers do. Illegal immigrants don't work at McDonalds or Walmart...they work in jobs where safety regulations are skirted to exploit them.

The fact that Trump is such a terrible human being does not necessarily mean that Romney is great. The Republicans are dying, and they will die faster and faster if they continue not reaching out even remotely to Hispanics and blacks. (That was literally the post-mortem for Romney, btw.) Worst case scenario, yes, they take it in 2020, but I am reasonably confident that by 2024 America will be truly progressive. One can only hope, of course.
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:43 AM   #2783
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Your post shows absolutely zero understanding of the labor market here, which is to be expected.

And yes, Democrats have set up benefit cliffs where earning $1 more from an actual job can lead to $10k or more of drops in government benefits. These programs actively dissuade people from working.

Keep hoping we'll all be as progressive as you, keep reaching for that star.
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Old 11-07-2016, 09:26 AM   #2784
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Quite- and the reason why we don't have reform of that is because Republicans refuse to actually do their job and instead just stop the Democrats from getting 90% of what they should through. And because they've gerrymandered states to hell and back they have a lock on the Senate and House for now.

Oh, I'm not worrying, Mozz. America is only getting more progressive. Millennials got Sanders up so high - the only problem is actually getting them to vote.

Do you have any actual arguments apart from "no you're wrong"? Such as, say, some sort of proof that illegal immigrants do in fact take your jobs?
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Old 11-07-2016, 10:12 AM   #2785
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The youth are always more liberal than adults, partly because they have no skin in the game wrt taxes.

There are a lot of papers on illegal immigration, here's a good panel from 2010: http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/IllegImmig_10-14-10_430pm.pdf

My BIL has a small contracting firm, and he hires mostly illegals. If he had to e-verify, he would have to pay legal workers a few dollars more an hour. Jobs like those at Wal-Mart and what not are exactly the kind of work that teens would have done in the past. I was a stockboy, short-order cook, delivery guy, landscaper, construction worker, recreation dept employee, shit like that from ages 12-20.

You never see legals running glass trays to bartenders, shuffling crates of food at restaurants, or stuffed 8 deep into a pickup truck after getting scooped up at Home Depot. The "jobs Americans won't do" is a canard pushed by people who want to depress wages. That fuckstain Zuckerberg wants more low-wage Indians to come in and replace Americans, or at least compete with them, driving down wages. California farmers will bitch and moan about fruit rotting on the vine, but aren't about to pay a living wage to Americans to deal with it (they're probably going to just automate with robotics).
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:53 PM   #2786
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Quote:
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The "jobs Americans won't do" is a canard pushed by people who want to depress wages. That fuckstain Zuckerberg wants more low-wage Indians to come in and replace Americans, or at least compete with them, driving down wages. California farmers will bitch and moan about fruit rotting on the vine, but aren't about to pay a living wage to Americans to deal with it (they're probably going to just automate with robotics).
Honestly though, I think lowering wages would actually be a GOOD thing and is something we as the "Rich West" should have done a long time ago. The way we're going, any of these three things will happen, 1) We're going to be replaces by cheap labor from the east. 2) as you bring up yourself, everything will be automated, or 3) We'll price ourselves completely out of the (global) market and no one can afford, or wants, the products we make and services we provide. Either way, it'll leave a hell of a lot of people in western countries out of a job.

Though if wages would go down, prices will follow. Labor costs still is one of the biggest if not the biggest cost for many companies. And when we as western countries can compete with other countries in wages, at least to the point that the upgrade in quality is worth the upgrade in price, we can, for example, beat the cheap stuff from China on quality because the price difference isn't as huge as it is now.

And what you say about a living wage, while I'm all for it, a living wage is only as high as it is because prices of stuff are as high as they are. And for example you pull up, I can bet you people aren't willing to pay double the price for an apple grown on US soil (or European for that matter) when say imports from Brazil or Turkey are cheaper and just as good. And besides, those are exactly the jobs unemployed westerners don't want to do. Plenty stories and examples about that here in the Netherlands.
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:25 PM   #2787
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And what you say about a living wage, while I'm all for it, a living wage is only as high as it is because prices of stuff are as high as they are. And for example you pull up, I can bet you people aren't willing to pay double the price for an apple grown on US soil (or European for that matter) when say imports from Brazil or Turkey are cheaper and just as good. And besides, those are exactly the jobs unemployed westerners don't want to do. Plenty stories and examples about that here in the Netherlands.

You aren't gonna be able to just pass a law the drops the minimum wage, have employers universally follow on that, and immediately see prices decrease across the board. That's why the only way to go is up with inflation unless there's a massive reform that just isn't going to happen.

And as we approach better technology automating the majority of jobs it begins to become a moral issue. While I'm not sure universal income is the correct answer, yet, Elon Musk recently spoke about this.
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:52 PM   #2788
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You can't expect businesses to not try and enlarge their profit margin by taking advantage of a lowered minimum wage. You're just going to create a much larger lower class for no real advantage.
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:16 PM   #2789
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You aren't gonna be able to just pass a law the drops the minimum wage, have employers universally follow on that, and immediately see prices decrease across the board. That's why the only way to go is up with inflation unless there's a massive reform that just isn't going to happen.

And as we approach better technology automating the majority of jobs it begins to become a moral issue. While I'm not sure universal income is the correct answer, yet, Elon Musk recently spoke about this.
Well, I wasn't exactly talking about passing laws. What should happen is a mentality change, which I know is not likely to happen, but still... And about that second point, the current economic system we have is reaching the end of its lifetime. A system depending on unlimited growth just isn't sustainable. And while you can argue about whether it's the way to go, I personally think Elon Musk is right.

And while with today's mentality and morality you and Emi are probably right in the short term, in the slightly longer term if no-one can afford your products and simply buys cheap (imported) alternatives as business you're either going to have to shut down shop or lower your prices. Communism is right in that a large enough and united proletariat holds an awful lot of power.
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:35 PM   #2790
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> E-Verify/Wall/Anything to tackle illegals will help teen and minority unemployment.

E-Verify just does what employers already have to do on a federal level. The only difference is that it's done automatically instead of by paper. Making employment verification more accessible isn't necessarily going to stop people from hiring workers illegally, especially in informal capacities or for temporary work.
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:37 PM   #2791
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A local news station of ours (WTHR) along with someone I've never heard of did a joint poll together on November 1, 2, and 3. Sample size appears to have been 600. Margin of error is 4%. The poll results showed that Trump led Clinton 49% to 38.3% in the state of Indiana. Other recent polls have shown similar results.
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Old 11-07-2016, 09:33 PM   #2792
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Yeah Indiana is a Trump stronghold so I'm not very surprised.
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Old 11-07-2016, 11:51 PM   #2793
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Yeah. Hillary's not flipping Indiana this election. It was a surprise when Obama did. The way the demographic allegiances are shifting, she's more likely to eat into the South than into Indiana.
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Old 11-08-2016, 07:56 AM   #2794
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Old 11-08-2016, 08:08 AM   #2795
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My only regret is that I didn't get to vote in Ohio like I did in 2008.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:19 AM   #2796
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Voted already, not like it matters. Final 538 tally is 70/30 HRC. Even if/when Trump loses, shit in the RNC and the media just got real.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:40 AM   #2797
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Voted already, not like it matters. Final 538 tally is 70/30 HRC. Even if/when Trump loses, shit in the RNC and the media just got real.
Even if/when Trump loses, he'll probably just throw a big fit about how rigged it was against him or how he was cheated, and encourage his supporters to throw a potentially dangerous tantrum over it.

Also glad to know that he broke a long tradition of candidates providing their taxes to the public for the sake of transparency and still got a ton of support from his own party regardless. Absolutely ridiculous, and now future candidates could possibly feel they don't have to release theirs.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:52 AM   #2798
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Don't particularly understand the US fixation with releasing tax returns, tbh.
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:24 AM   #2799
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I voted! Not that it matters. I live in NY. Someone in Ohio or Florida's vote is worth 20x mine is.
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Old 11-08-2016, 10:28 AM   #2800
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