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Old 10-04-2010, 09:32 PM   #1
Mozz
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Articuno Mantine Derp-Fest

[email protected]: It can currently fly though.
Firewater: the only thing better than it in that group is Bastodion
Firewater: ...
Firewater: and no it can't
[email protected]: Can't it?
[email protected]: Species Char says it can
[email protected]: When was it nerfed?
Firewater: Muyo said yes so Mozz wouldn't rape LC's
Firewater: ...
Firewater: and even before this was stated, Muyo said that it could glide.
Firewater: ish, but it needs water to do so.
Firewater: lol
[email protected]: as far as i'm concerned: it's a Flying-type, it has wings, therefore it can fly
[email protected]: Unless it's changed on the thread, I'm personally sticking with what's there.
Mozz: such horseshit
Firewater: eh
Mozz: they're water/flying
Mozz: because they can escape the water
steve: real Rays cannot fly, though
Mozz: not because they can actually fucking fly
steve: they can't even glide
[email protected]: If Dragonite can fly with those shit wings, and CLEFABLE can fly for limited times, Mantine can fucking fly.
Mozz: they're flying fish
Firewater: lol
Mozz: dragonite and clefable are fucking magic
Mozz: mantine is a jew fish
[email protected]: actually, a Jewfish is a kind of Grouper, but I digress
steve: If MAntines fins count as wings, then so should gyarados'
[email protected]: ... Of course, magic is the answer. SCREW LOGIC, I'M FUCKING HARRY POTTER!
[email protected]: And no, DD.
steve: yes.
Mozz: dragonite is based on X, mantine is based on Y, X can fly, Y can't
[email protected]: Mantine's wings are most of its body.
Mozz: derp
[email protected]: >Implying Banana trees can fly
[email protected]: I tab out just so I can focus on orders and bam 30 responses =o
steve: dragonite has been shown flying in the anime
steve: has mantine?
steve: i donno
Mozz: Special abilities
Unlike real-life manta rays, which can only "fly" through water, Mantine can literally fly in the air if they gain enough speed. They soar gracefully out of the water.
[email protected]: In fact, its whole body could really be flapped.
[email protected]: Theoretically,
[email protected]: I don't know if it'd have the right muscles though.
[email protected]: Ray pectoral fins are generally referred to as 'wings'
[email protected]: Mantine's fins look like wings
[email protected]: and it's a Flying-type
[email protected]: the problem with it flying is...?
[email protected]: Because of Physics.
[email protected]: oh, right
[email protected]: Physics
[email protected]: The same physics that lets Dragonite fly.
[email protected]: *let
[email protected]: i see
[email protected]: Random interjecting statement.
[email protected]: I'm going to bed.
[email protected]il.co.uk: kbai
Firewater: k
[email protected]: Bye then.
Mozz: Dragonite, the Dragon Pokémon. This extremely rare and highly intelligent type is able to fly faster than any known Pokémon.
[email protected]: After maths but still.
Mozz: DERP.
steve: god damn
[email protected]: Cya all later, hopefully I wake up to 4 reffings Sal ;p
steve: why od i have to ref one of id's awful sigs?
steve: do*
[email protected]: might i just ask for a sec
[email protected]: Which is illogical and totally stupid if one applies physics.
[email protected]: why does anyone have a problem with Mantine flying?
[email protected]: Why are you using real world physics for Mantine then?
[email protected]: Can you not see the argument here? Our argument is with the physics of it.
[email protected] left the group chat 9:47 PM
[email protected]: Of Dragonite flying, I mean.
[email protected]: Well, mine is.
Mozz: Because it's never been shown to fly, it's not based on anything that CAN fly, and it doesn't have any magical anime-ish basis to fly, like Clefable or Dragonite.
Mozz: besides that, it's a fucking jet
[email protected]: Clefable can fly because of its shit small wings.
[email protected]: Therefore everything with wings can fly.
[email protected]: Therefore Mantine can fly.
Mozz: that's why you're a 12 year old asberger
[email protected] left the group chat 9:49 PM
[email protected]: Almost completely wrong there actually. And what is wrong with that statement?
steve: >implying clefable doesn't use special magic energy to fly and would get really tired if it tried to fly for a long time
Mozz: right, steve
Mozz: flying is an opt-in, not opt out
[email protected]: again, i'm forced to ask: what is everyone's problem with Mantine flying?
[email protected]: Magic is not the answer to breaking physics...
Mozz: because pokemon shouldn't be able to do things in the asb that they can't do in the anime which the league is supposedly based off of
[email protected]: Real world physics states that Dragonite is grounded, as is Clefable.
[email protected]: And I accept that, Mozz.
[email protected]: My point is that if those two can fly, so should Mantine with its wings.
Mozz: that's not how it works
[email protected]: Also, I don't remember Clefable ever flying.
Mozz: I've seen Dragonite fly fast as fuck
[email protected]: Ever.
Mozz:
In the Electric Tale of Pikachu manga, Clefable are depicted as having the ability to fly using their wings, although they have never been seen doing so anywhere else.
Mozz: now
Mozz: this is tenuous
Mozz: BUT it's something
Mozz: i don't remember seeing it fly in the animoo
Mozz: but i'd accept mega bouncing
Mozz: which i've seen
[email protected]: In the manga that wasn't created by the anime writers or Game Freak, you mean?
Mozz: yeah, that's why i wouldn't accept it flying
[email protected]: Yeah, I wrote that too late.
[email protected] left the group chat 9:53 PM
Mozz: it also has a fuckton of psychic ability
Mozz: so bounce + psychic could replicate
Mozz: but could it "Fly", not on my watch
Mozz: unless the anime proves otherwise
[email protected]: And yet, the SCs say it can.
Mozz: i'd like to see proof of that
Mozz: i don't really use it
Mozz: and i didn't have much say in the SC
[email protected]: and can use their wings to fly (not fast or well, but they can)
[email protected]: Directly pulled from it.
Mozz: ok, i don't stand by everything in the rulebook
Mozz: especially shit i didn't write
[email protected]: So... where is your problem with Mantine then?
Mozz: uh, because of the reasons i've stated before
Mozz: you have to prove to me that it can fly
Mozz: using proof from the anime, cards, pokedex, or moveset
[email protected]: from Bulbapedia: "Lola's Mantine was used against Brock's Onix, in a battle to reclaim the Pewter Gym and allow it to still be a Rock-type gym, Onix drained the pool with Dig leaving Mantine stranded. It then flew in the air and use BubbleBeam to hurt Onix."
[email protected]: >It then flew in the air
[email protected]: Thanks for that, I was Googling for the ep.
[email protected]: However, it can't fly from the ground.
Mozz: it used bounce, no?
[email protected]: Mantine flaps around, unable to move anywhere. Onix comes up underneath it which, while causing damage, allows Mantine to fly.
[email protected]: unlikely
[email protected]: it was like a Johto ep
[email protected]: and yeah
[email protected]: species char already says it can't get into the air easily from the ground
[email protected]: which makes sense - it has no legs
[email protected]: So yeah, there's the proof.
[email protected]: Mantine flies if it's in the air. LC released it into the air.
Mozz: it can glide
Mozz: it can't gain altitude, no?
[email protected]: It can maintain altitude, I believe.
[email protected]: Also, it can use Bounce, so those wings must be a good strength.
[email protected]: I think so, anyway.
[email protected]: Yeah, it can.
Mozz: yeah, bounce is based on its belly
Mozz: not its flying ability
[email protected]: ... Because it can clearly bounce using its abdominal muscles.
Mozz: because if it was a fucking balloon like jiggly
Mozz: it could bounce
[email protected]: But it isn't. It's a Mantine.
[email protected]: which has wings
[email protected]: It can't get anywhere without using limbs.
[email protected]: and is a Flying-type
[email protected]: Therefore, it uses the wings to bounce.
[email protected]: Proving the wings are supposed to be strong.
Mozz: it probably adjusts its muscles to get off the ground and then jumps on its belly to gain altitude
Mozz: like doing the worm
[email protected]: or maybe it's because it can fly?
[email protected]: More likely the latter.
Mozz: lol
[email protected]: I really don't see how you can gain altitude with a belly like that.
[email protected]: i really don't see how you CAN'T gain altitude with WINGS like that
[email protected]: I meant by bouncing, but yeah.
Mozz: watching the ep now
Mozz: http://www.livevideo.com/video/hmdwg...asting-st.aspx
[email protected]: unfortunately, as a Water-type, Mantine gains the stigma of only really being seen near water in the animoo
[email protected]: and is therefore mostly swimming/leaping
[email protected]: Apart from vs. Lola
[email protected]: yeah
[email protected]: i was just saying
[email protected]: this is the only one that you don't see it in like a river/the sea
[email protected]: It's the 1 ep you have as proof.
[email protected]: i know
[email protected]: Yeah, making it a bitch to find evidence for.
[email protected]: like how Farfetch'd has the ability to dive in species chars
[email protected]: but when do you see it on a pond in the show?
[email protected]: It's a duck, to be fair.
[email protected]: and Mantine's a Flying-type
[email protected]: So's Gyara.
steve: sal
steve: reffed
[email protected]: I LOVE YOU
[email protected]: Gyara doesn't have wings -_-
[email protected]: Yeah, I get your point.
[email protected]: Oh, DD, how strong do you ref Psychic? And how much energy do I have left?
steve: .6 hb
steve: you're closer to 1/2 then 1/4
Mozz: fucking brock's dad sucks
[email protected]: And CM is in effect?
[email protected]: indeed
steve: mhm
[email protected]: Yeah, he kinda does.
Mozz: this fucking buffering sucks dick
Mozz: GET TO MANTINE FLYFAILING
Mozz: FUCK YES MANTINE
[email protected]: Now watch as Dig takes forever to happen...
Mozz: :masturbates in meantime:
Mozz: ok
Mozz: mantine is fucking death
Mozz: it's herping a derp
Mozz: mantine gains air
Mozz: and glides
Mozz: it can't fly from nothing
[email protected]: no-one said it could
Mozz: it glides
[email protected]: just that it can fly in the air
Mozz: it never gains altitude
Mozz: ever
[email protected]: But it doesn't lose it.
Mozz: both times it got into the air
Mozz: it went straight fucking down
[email protected]: ... I need to rewatch that then.
[email protected]: once it got caught
Mozz: http://www.livevideo.com/video/hmdwg...asting-st.aspx
[email protected]: it was diving down to attack
Mozz: never shown to gain or maintain altitude
[email protected]: never got shown not to be able to gain or maintain altitude
Mozz: welcome to water type gligar town
[email protected]: Gligar... I pity that thing.
[email protected]: Actually, speaking of that.
[email protected]: Gligar has perfect flight in the air, in the anime.
[email protected]: Well, Gligar that don't belong to the main fucking character.
Mozz: flapping wings, gaining altitude?
[email protected]: Gaining altitude, yes.
[email protected]: he means powered flight, Sal
Mozz: not from just gliding
[email protected]: as in wingbeats
[email protected]: like bird pokes
[email protected]: It flaps its wings for take-off I think.
[email protected]: it bounces on its tail
[email protected]: Once again, Ash's excluded.
Mozz: [22:25:11] [5.52.42.44 - JerichiRedux]
Mozz: it never gains altitude
Mozz: ever
[email protected]: But it doesn't lose it.
[22:25:19] [5.52.42.44 - JerichiRedux]
fucking mantine how do they work
[22:25:28] [5.52.42.44 - JerichiRedux]
BY SHUTTING OFF GRAVITY, CLEARLY
[email protected]: It was taught to do that.
[email protected]: again, the species chars already say that Mantine has trouble getting airborne from the ground, which is something we all agree on
[email protected]: The argument is lost as long as Mozz sticks to the anime, Dave.
[email protected]: ah, true
[email protected]: i keep trying to use logic/common sense
[email protected]: Come to think of it, with no air current, wouldn't Mantine have a hard time moving around in the sky in a gym?[/failphysics]
[email protected]: ehhhh
[email protected]: I mean except the sideward acting force from Onix's Dig.
[email protected]: Now it's less "OH GOD IT FLIES!" and more "ANIME IN BEING SHIT AT PHYSICS SHOCKER!"
[email protected]: while gliding, various physical shit happens that basically creates lower pressure under the wing than over it, 'sucking' it up
Mozz: show me proof it can gain altitude
Mozz: in any format of the franchise
[email protected]: aside from it jumping/being knocked upward?
Mozz: yes
[email protected]: Dave, I meant it moving around horizontally.
[email protected]: same
[email protected]: that's how birds maintain height while gliding
[email protected]: So "sucking it up" refers to horizontal movement?
[email protected]: and how fish like sharks and tuna maintain depth while swimming
[email protected]: Rather than how high it is?
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Old 10-05-2010, 02:08 AM   #2
Lonely Cubone
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I like this bit

[email protected]: actually, a Jewfish is a kind of Grouper, but I digress
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:14 AM   #3
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Quote:
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Mozz: show me proof it can gain altitude
Mozz: in any format of the franchise
Pretty sure Gold uses his Mantine to fly about in the Adventures manga, can't find any scans though >>;
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:20 AM   #4
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Pretty sure Gold uses his Mantine to fly about in the Adventures manga, can't find any scans though >>;
It helps to live in the country that published it first, but the problem is Mantine needed 20 Remoraid attached to it blasting Water Gun for it to work. (Volume 12, Volume 13, Volume 29)

The league seems to have a love-hate relationship with the manga; mostly the latter given the focus on the anime, but it seems to have permitted Pikachu's Toxic tail injection seen in Volume 2.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:06 AM   #5
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Brock vs Lola, Mantine clearly shown able to glide but not able to fly in the true sense. Think flying squirrel or flying fish in the real world.

How is this hard to work out?
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:44 PM   #6
DaveTheFishGuy
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As much as this may well cause me regret...

Right, Mantine cannot achieve powered flight, a lá birds, agreed? It glides. It's the Kite Pokémon, after all.

So how about this: When you're in a glider/hang-glider, or summat, you can move about, such as gaining altitude by diving and pulling up. Why not allow Mantine to do that? Gligar and Gliscor have been shown to perform similar feats in the anime, as has Mantine itself. It's still helpless on the ground, though Bounce helps there, I guess.

Not trying to step on any toes, just think it's a valid point. I'm not suggesting it can use powered flight, merely glide.

inb4lolno
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:47 PM   #7
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As much as this may well cause me regret...

Right, Mantine cannot achieve powered flight, a lá birds, agreed? It glides. It's the Kite Pokémon, after all.

So how about this: When you're in a glider/hang-glider, or summat, you can move about, such as gaining altitude by diving and pulling up. Why not allow Mantine to do that? Gligar and Gliscor have been shown to perform similar feats in the anime, as has Mantine itself. It's still helpless on the ground, though Bounce helps there, I guess.

Not trying to step on any toes, just think it's a valid point. I'm not suggesting it can use powered flight, merely glide.

inb4lolno
Maybe something like it can take advantage of wind currents, and has all typical gliding rules, such as when pulling up to gain altitude you lose momentum, and gain momentum by diving, etc.

I could buy some sort of compromise. As long as we don't have Mantines acting like Pelippers, I'm game.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:56 PM   #8
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Sounds good to me, that's pretty much what I was going for.
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Old 10-05-2010, 08:42 PM   #9
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:01 PM   #10
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I'm good with Mantine being able to glide, just not gain altitude through flapping or something equally ridiculous. So it shall be.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:35 PM   #11
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I actually lold.
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:58 AM   #12
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Fuck yeah. Thanks Muyo.

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Old 10-06-2010, 02:00 AM   #13
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Meh, the whole "not perfect flying" thing is why mine has the sig that it does. Which of course, it wouldn't be able to use in Mozz's Gym anyhow. I don't particularly disagree with the changes made, just the way.
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:05 AM   #14
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Just a note to suggest that this is written into Mantine's Species Characteristic, for clarity for others.
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:32 AM   #15
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> Implying that information is collected into a single useful place around here.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:21 PM   #16
Jerichi
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Yeah I guess.

I may be revising the SCs soon so. We'll see.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:47 PM   #17
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Yeah I guess.

I may be revising the SCs soon so. We'll see.
AGAIN?!
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:21 PM   #18
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As in the existing ones. It's a lot less arduous and only has to do with rewriting some outdated characteristics.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:40 PM   #19
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As in the existing ones. It's a lot less arduous and only has to do with rewriting some outdated characteristics.
Ah. Okay, that makes sense.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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