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Old 02-24-2012, 08:36 PM   #1
Shuckle
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Anne Frank's Post-Mortem Baptism

http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthread.php?t=3954]Ouch.

I react strongly to this, I don't know about you. It's terrifying, to me, to be baptized under another faith years after my death, against my will - the idea that I'd be remembered as someone too stupid to pick the Mormon church as my faith by everyone of my new faith that I'd joined by being necro-baptized.

The fact that it's a Holocaust victim - someone who died for their faith, which by the way was a Jewish faith - just makes it worse.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:43 PM   #2
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why do people care? i see this almost as children name calling each other. cause whats really gonna happen? its gonna get "reversed" which i have no idea how even this took place to begin with let alone it being reversed. faith is determined by how they live their lives. but anyway, they're just gonna "reseverse" it so that she can be labeled as something else.


just meaningless and a waste of everybody's time.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:45 PM   #3
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One, you didn't need to post this twice. Would encourage a mod to kindly splice this post of Shuckle's into the existing thread. (You can splice mine too if you want or just delete it, I don't care.)

EDIT: And to splice Gr's post over there too while you're at it. (Silly Gr. )

Two, if you wanted to move the thread out of Debate and into Misc Disc (since people were telling you "I don't see what's to debate " in that thread), then ask a mod to move the existing thread here. Honestly, you could produce a debate fairly easily though by simply posing this question to people:

"Are proxy baptisms offensive? Y/N If yes, to what degree are they offensive?"
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
One, you didn't need to post this twice. Would encourage a mod to kindly splice this post of Shuckle's into the existing thread. (You can splice mine too if you want or just delete it, I don't care.)

EDIT: And to splice Gr's post over there too while you're at it. (Silly Gr. )

Two, if you wanted to move the thread out of Debate and into Misc Disc (since people were telling you "I don't see what's to debate " in that thread), then ask a mod to move the existing thread here. Honestly, you could produce a debate fairly easily though by simply posing this question to people:

"Are proxy baptisms offensive? Y/N If yes, to what degree are they offensive?"

I POST WHERE I WANT
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:52 PM   #5
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Agreed with Gr. About his opinion... AND THE POSTING

If the Mormons are right, then what they're doing is a good thing.
If the Mormons are wrong, then what they're doing doesn't have any significance.

Either way, there's no reason to get pissed at the Mormons for doing this. It's a logically valid doctrine that they have, regardless of if their religion is correct.

The only negative reaction anyone should have to this is that it is a desecration of dead Jewish people. But even then it's not really a desecration because they aren't tampering with the body. And if they actually can affect the soul, like I said before the only possible outcome is good.

This sounds like people searching for a reason to get mad at the Mormons.

If I was a Jew this would be my reaction: "Oh wow these people are implying our religion is wrong! Oh wait, hasn't the whole world been doing that for thousands of years? And in addition, these Mormons aren't even trying to convert us? That's refreshing! I'm glad we're secure enough in our own faith to realize that the Mormons are just wasting their time - we believe we're right and so it doesn't matter what they think."

Oh EmGee, Nick defending the Mormons? Never thought that day would come.
Just read the Debate thread on this, btw: it's actually really cool to be thinking pretty much the same thing as Talon/Concept despite very different religious views.

Last edited by Amras.MG; 02-24-2012 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:26 PM   #6
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It is my understanding that the sacrament of baptism is a form of rebirth, that people aren't born Christians but are initiated into the faith through baptism.

Since Frank is dead, she's obviously not going to be reborn in any form, so this effectively does nothing unless you believe God is going to kick Frank out of heaven because the Mormons baptised whatever pieces of her are left here on Earth.

While GR, Amras and Talon all correctly don't see this as a big deal, doing stuff with dead people can be a big deal.

Point? Read this.

There was a movie circa 2002 called Simone that was originally going to feature a CGI actress, but the MPAA deemed that unacceptable due to the fear that CGI actors/actresses could replace real ones. But in such a case, the actresses/actors could object if their likeness were used, although it would be tough to beat in court because of the ramifications of how similar a model has to be to the real deal and whether or not appearance can be copyrighted. In Lucas' case, the dead can't object, and all Lucas needs to reshoot the original Star Wars films is a good Guiness imitator or, eventually, something that can mimic human voices effectively.

So, while I don't think what the Mormons are doing is that big a deal, it's basically the door-mat to a portal of way worse, more disconcerting issues.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
So, while I don't think what the Mormons are doing is that big a deal, it's basically the door-mat to a portal of way worse, more disconcerting issues.
I didn't consider the ramifications of precedent for this, but then again this isn't a legal case. As far as I know Jewish descendents of Holocaust victims aren't suing the Mormons.

Add on to this the fact that the Mormons are doing this for literally everyone they consider to not be in heaven - and that includes atheists/pagans/maybe even Catholics and other Protestants? not sure - and the fact that they've been doing this for quite a while, and I'm not really worried about legal precedent.

The main thing to keep in mind here is that this a private ceremony the Mormons are holding. It's not like they're representing the Jews as wishing they had renounced their faith or anything like that, the personhood of the dead is not being affected or even exploited, unlike what Hollywood would be doing.

*shudder* Lucas would try to remake the original Star Wars trilogy, too...
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:23 PM   #8
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(I don't appreciate the previous thread being deleted... I was just about to transfer my posts there over to here...)

Anyway, we do this for everyone dead, Jew, Gentile, and Atheist we have records for. As taught in the Bible, Baptism by fire and by water is an essential rite in order to live in God's Kingdom. Of course, obviously, dead people can't be baptized, so we do it for them via proxy. Their spirit is given the opportunity to accept the Baptism, and Christ, in the Spirit world when this occurs, but, being as God respects freedom of choice/free agency, they have the ability and freedom to reject the ordinance if they so choose.
We are not forcing them to convert by doing this, but simply giving them the opportunity, if they so desire, to be numbered among Christ's people at the Second Coming and resurrected accordingly.

We do more then just baptisms though, we also perform marriage sealings, which allow mortal marriages to persist into the Eternities, if both parties desire it.

You don't have to like it, but it really doesn't affect anyone except the one the ordinance is performed for, and then, only if they desire it as a Spirit after death.


On the topic of her being a Jew, I'd like to also mention that, we LDS also claim to be of the house of Israel. Each of us gets a blessing when we are ready, which "officially" adopts us into one of the 13 tribes in God's eyes, if we are not already related directly. Thus we are entitled to all the Blessings given to Abraham, and the blessings and responsibilities relating to our tribe.

Last edited by unownmew; 02-25-2012 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:31 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
(I don't appreciate the previous thread being deleted... I was just about to transfer my posts there over to here...)
Why is it that every time I try to do my job I end up displeasing people instead? -.-
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:37 PM   #10
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Why is it that every time I try to do my job I end up displeasing people instead? -.-
The life of a moderator is filled with complaints. You can't make everyone happy.
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