Pokémon XY

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Celebii151

Not to mention the double Dark in Greninja and Krookodile

Ehh, focused more on the Ground tbh than anything else. (Donphan doesn't measure up, and Gible is only a Gible.)

Originally Posted by Celebii151

Types hardly matter in the anime tho :/

Mostly true, but for an Elite Four run I can see them mattering even in the anime -- if the writers opt to stay true to the games and say "you have to make the entire challenge with the same six Pokémon," then suddenly the type balance of the team is going to matter unless the anime decides to turn its normal type-ignorance dial up to 11 and go balls-to-the-wall crazy with type disadvantages not mattering.

'Cause it's one thing when you've got Greninja vs. Sceptile or Charizard vs. Greninja. It's quite another when you have an entire team of waters vs. a team that's 50% fire or an entire team of dragons vs. a team that's 50% grass. Unova and Kalos have done a much better job of paying lip service to type disadvantages than have previous regions, which almost seemed to openly mock the concept given how much they handed Ash disadvantaged wins. It would be surprising if Ash were to 4-0 the entire Elite Four with a team that's too type-imbalanced.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by dirkac

>Ash's top mons
I really don't feel like you can make a real top 6 due to power fluctuation but
Pikachu/Infernape/Glalie/Charizard/Snorlax/Greninja/Sceptile/Krookodile/Kingler would probably be a top 9.
I feel like Torterra would be up there was it not shafted completely in favour of Infernape, and Ash not knowing how to properly use it, and Leavanny had a similar problem. Swellow would probably be up there too, and pwrformance wise is pretty much best bird.

Even with fluctuation (which is mostly based on the writers overall intent, i.e. having Ash lose), if Ash is intended to win there's a pretty clear consensus on what Pokemon he would need to do it convincingly.

There isn't one stat to show it, but if you look at a number of different criteria, the same Pokemon tend to appear over and over.

Sceptile, for example, has a low overall win percentage if you count its battles from when it was a Treeco. But when it finally reached Sceptile, it was a powerhouse that rarely lost, and achieved the feat of defeating a legendary. That's why, even with Sceptile's low overall KO it's considered one of Ash's strongest.

Snorlax, Krookodile, and Kingler all have good pedigrees. League experience, experience in 6x6 battles, fully evolved (or powerful base).

The 6x6 battle thing is important, since KOs are more likely to happen during them. Snorlax KO'd two of Harrison's Pokemon and lost to the third. In a hypothetical match where Ash uses his strongest team, five of his Pokemon are going to be knocked out. That doesn't mean they're not still members of his strongest team.

Originally Posted by Talon87

Ehh, focused more on the Ground tbh than anything else. (Donphan doesn't measure up, and Gible is only a Gible.)

Mostly true, but for an Elite Four run I can see them mattering even in the anime -- if the writers opt to stay true to the games and say "you have to make the entire challenge with the same six Pokémon," then suddenly the type balance of the team is going to matter unless the anime decides to turn its normal type-ignorance dial up to 11 and go balls-to-the-wall crazy with type disadvantages not mattering.

'Cause it's one thing when you've got Greninja vs. Sceptile or Charizard vs. Greninja. It's quite another when you have an entire team of waters vs. a team that's 50% fire or an entire team of dragons vs. a team that's 50% grass. Unova and Kalos have done a much better job of paying lip service to type disadvantages than have previous regions, which almost seemed to openly mock the concept given how much they handed Ash disadvantaged wins. It would be surprising if Ash were to 4-0 the entire Elite Four with a team that's too type-imbalanced.

Even with over-representation, Infernape is too good to pass up. Not only does it have one of the highest win percentages among Ash's Pokemon, it also has a high number of battles fought. Infernape and Greninja are the only Pokemon to post such high win percentages in spite of high battles fought. Charizard, Sceptile, and Pikachu's records are all tainted by plot nerfing (like Pikachu v. Snivy) or troubled youth (Sceptile).

Though, given what you've said about Krookodile (which I only remembered when you brought it up) I'd put Krookodile as the final Pokemon. My reasoning:

Kingler

Spoiler: show

Points in favour:

1. Exclusively fought against powerful Pokemon League opponents
2. Powerful evolved water type (Ash picked Kingler over Squirtle in Johto)
3. Strong record of dominance (experience in 6x6 battles)

Points against:

1. Hasn't been seen in forever
2. Kanto (over-representation)
3. No special bond with Ash (beyond typical good master/trainer)
4. Average number of battles fought

Snorlax

Spoiler: show

Points in favour:

1. Pretty much called on ONLY when Ash needed to beat a powerful enemy (feats)
2. Strong record of dominance (experience in 6x6 battles)
3. Unique typing on Ash's team
4. Above-average number of battles fought

Points against:

1. Kanto
2. No special bond with Ash (beyond typical good master/trainer)

Krookodile

Spoiler: show

Points in favour:

1. Feats (defeating Iris' Dragonite)
2. Final stage evolution
3. Strong, rare typing
4. Unova (under-representation)
5. Special bond with Ash

Points against:

1. Below average battles fought
2. Over-representation of typing (with Greninja)

I don't know if I would count Greninja has a true "dark-type" though, since it allegedly has Protean and only stays as Water/Dark on defense. Thus, given with Infernape you add a Fighting-type, and with Krookodile you add a Ground (both rare types for Ash). So there's the all-important diversity to Ash's squad.

Not to mention all regions represent yo

Pikachu, Charizard - Kanto
Sceptile - Hoenn
Infernape - Sinnoh
Krookodile - Unova
Greninja - Kalos

Charizard replaces Noivern as the flyer (especially appropriate if he learns to Mega Evolve at some point). Infernape replaces Hawlucha. Krookodile replaces Goodra.

That is a champion-killing team.

[Talon87]

Your list is pretty good. Two things:

1. It wouldn't be all regions, of course. You've got Johto missing. Understandable though -- AK2 brought up Heracross in our discussion, but Heracross aside Ash's Johto squad is really lacking for powerhouses.

2. I thought that Froakie was confirmed at some point in the anime to have Torrent. Bulbapedia appears to disagree, stating that Greninja's ability is "Unknown" and having no mention of Torrent in the article proper. I thought I remembered seeing an episode in which they gave Froakie Torrent (and I was pissed because I hate it when the writers lock the starters in to their shitty default abilities). But I'll trust in the collective's accuracy here, and suppose that instead I am conflating Greninja with Serena's Fennekin/Braixen and/or Clemont's Chespin, as I am pretty sure they too have been confirmed to have Blaze and Overgrow instead of Magician and Bulletproof. If Ash's Greninja does in fact have Protean, that would be pretty cool -- but I feel like we've seen scarce evidence of it to date, and that we should have seen evidence of it by now if we were going to. (Then again, given the number of times Greninja has been knocked into the red, fought back, and then been KOed, I guess we ought to have seen Torrent kick in by now too.)

[Doppleganger]

I did look at Heracross, because he's always been repudiated to be one of Ash's tougher Pokemon. With the ability to Mega Evolve (which only Charizard and Sceptile otherwise possesses), that is also an appeal. In my head I always considered Kanto-Johto to be two halves of the same whole, although there is a distinction even if it's less so compared with other regions.

But to me there's no reason to pick Heracross over the other candidates on Ash's roster. He does have league experience, but a low win percentage (.500), below average battles fought (4) and a history of inconsistency. He's lost to a Venusaur, against who he should have type advantage, and most of his wins were against other insect Pokemon. He has won against a Fire Pokemon, but many of Ash's other Pokemon have also won battles with type disadvantage so it isn't much of a feat.

Heracross deserves a lot of flack for losing badly to Darkrai. Even if Ash made a lot of poor strategic choices for Pokemon to bring against Tobias, Heracross wasn't one of them. Sceptile had to shoulder most of the weight of taking down Darkrai because Heracross didn't do enough damage, weakening Sceptile to the point Pikachu had to battle Latios at full strength.

My conspiracy theory about Tobias is Darkrai/Latios were his only Legendaries and his only strong Pokemon - the other four were team filler. Tobias is so confident in his Legendaries he uses his two strongest Pokemon to sweep and doesn't save any in reserve, unlike Ash who always holds back his strongest until late.

Ash's strategy is overwhelmingly better in a tournament when not facing someone with a fixed party (like Elite Four or Champion). The opposition doesn't get to see his strongest Pokemon and plan for it (like Ash did for Darkrai, and how Goodra surprised Shota), and Ash gets more favourable matchups of weaker Pokemon v. weaker Pokemon and stronger v. stronger. Ash got completely screwed in Sinnoh because half his team got KO'd without landing a single hit on the opposition.

If Ash had beaten Latios with ONE strong Pokemon left, I think he could have swept the rest of Tobias' team. If Heracross has a fight resembling Charizard's battle against Champion Drake's Dragonite, Sceptile survives to do damage to Latios and Pikachu doesn't faint against Latios. Then, Pikachu can slaughter Tobias' filler Pokemon.

The only fight I can think of comparable to Heracross v. Darkrai is Bulbasaur v. Electabuzz. In the Orange Championship, it wasn't yet known that Bulbasaur gets owned by the Electabuzz line, so it was just sad that Bulbasaur, one of Ash's strongest pokemon at the time jobs despite type advantage, forcing Charizard out early in a disadvantageous match. And then Charizard does heavy damage to Dragonite in spite of being heavily damaged against Electabuzz.

[rotomotorz]

New theory:

Spoiler: show

Charizard beats Pikachu, Goodra, and then ties with Greninja, but Alain wins because Bisharp is still alive

[EpicSquirtle]

Originally Posted by rotomotorz

New theory:

Spoiler: show

Charizard beats Pikachu, Goodra, and then ties with Greninja, but Alain wins because Bisharp is still alive

Spoiler: show

Well a nice theory, the preview for the next episode proves this to be impossible, as it shows that Bisharp has been knocked out. The preview also shows that Goodra will either tie or lose to Bisharp. (Greninja is already on the field when Charizard is sent out again.)

[MarbleZone]

Spoiler: show

Would just like to point out that Pikachu single-handedly beat a Tyranitar and Metagross, and that Hawlucha seems to have 5 active moves. Didn't really miss Godmode Ash :P

Felt rushed, all in all, and none of Alain's Pokemon stood out at all but that was to be expected. I think a match of this relevance should be a three-parter. Comparisons to Paul, the only other decent rival in the series post-Gary, are inevitable and, in my opinion, Paul presented a much more carefully-raised team than Alain just did. It really seems to be Charizard +5 fillers rather than a cohesive team for a League finalist. Even Shouta's team seemed more believable, for the simple reason that each Pokemon had enough screen time to be recognizable.

This episode went a long way in making me want Ash to win. I'm not a fan of plot-device-super-Greninja, but they're running with it hard and I respect the writers' dedication in that field; they gave Ash a Champion-worthy Pokemon unlike anything he ever owned, and in doing so make the eventuality of a League Victory seem more deserved than in any other season.

[Doppleganger]

Ash has a decent rival in XY.

Spoiler: show

Diantha.

[Doppleganger]

I am going to watch an XY&Z episode titled Pikachu Dreams of Squishy.

It is probably not a hentai.

[deoxys]

New episode

Spoiler: show

Are you actually fucking kidding me

I just want to say fuck the writers, fuck ShoPro, fuck PokeAni, I literally don't give a flying fuck about this show anymore

Can't wait for the inevitable restart of the cycle where Ash dumps all of his Pokemon on Professor Oak's and sees them as often as an alcoholic father and then Pikachu proceeds to get its ass kicked by the next region's 'common starter area' Pokemon despite just beating both a Metagross and a Tyranitar.

[Talon87]

Episode 38 (newest episode):

Spoiler: show

I told you guys. :p

Exciting but rushed. We were rushed to the finale between Charizard and Greninja.

Greninja's movepool wasn't updated and that sucked (and ended up also being a warning sign). Water Shuriken, Double Team, Aerial Ace, and Cut. :\ Was really hoping to see any of the last three moves, any or all, be replaced by something new and better.

Nice animation (for ShoPro).

This sets up nicely for either Sun and Moon or else Pokémon Z-Twilight -- whenever and however we get to revisit Kalos -- having Alain as the Champion instead of Diantha.

This also sets up nicely -- if frustratingly -- for ShoPro's habit of having Ash box everyone before setting out for a new region. It's awful writing, but it's been their practice for the past twenty years. It only makes sense that they'd have to have Ash lose if they're planning on bringing him to Hawaii. Having him win here would have gone hand in hand with retirement, i.e. retiring Ash from the TV series.

[Torkoal Stu]

Regarding latest episode:

Spoiler: show

'm quite confused with the way the Kalos League has panned out. It feels almost as it if has been an after thought of XY. From the fact they didn't show the majority of Ash's matches in full and then shoving the final match into two rather rushed episodes to have the same conclusion as we've always had.

I guess my reaction is, what was the point in it all?

Also poor Goodra~ :/

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Torkoal Stu

Regarding latest episode:

Spoiler: show

'm quite confused with the way the Kalos League has panned out. It feels almost as it if has been an after thought of XY. From the fact they didn't show the majority of Ash's matches in full and then shoving the final match into two rather rushed episodes to have the same conclusion as we've always had.

I guess my reaction is, what was the point in it all?

Also poor Goodra~ :/

I've been avoiding Sun & Moon spoilers as best I can, so keep in mind that what follows might be rather uninformed. But from my own perspective ...

(Spoilers thru XY&Z 38)

Spoiler: show

... it feels like ShoPro and Game Freak, who are normally in pretty good communication with one another, might have had a hiccup here in Gen 6. ShoPro was probably nearing the end of their narrative road quicker than Game Freak was ready for. ShoPro asked Game Freak, "What are your plans for the future? What happens next? What can we incorporate into the anime?" Game Freak noncommittally tells them that they're thinking about stuff centering around Zygarde. ShoPro takes this to mean Z, and while they don't strictly animate anything that isn't going to end up being in the future games, they do place it in the here and now of Gen 6 Kalos, which ends up proving to be a mistake. Whether we're getting Zygarde forms in Gen 7 or in Gen 8 or what, that I can't comment on, but I'm sure we'll get them eventually and I'm just as sure they didn't pan out for Gen 6. Which makes the entire placement of "XY&Z" bogus from the start.

If Game Freak had been better able to commit to an answer for ShoPro way back when in 2014, if they had been better able to tell them, "Look, we're not planning on any more Gen 6 games after ORAS, our next project is Gen 7 in a new region," then I don't think we would have ever gotten XY&Z, even if the Zygarde forms might still play a part in Gen 7's games. I think they would've saved it for very near the end of Gen 6 (at the soonest), having Squishy join Ash (rather than Eureka) and travel with him to Alola. And that's only if it's happening in Gen 7. If it's not even going to happen until Gen 8, well then scratch Squishy showing up in the Gen 6 anime altogether. He wouldn't even show at the tail end. He'd be absent entirely.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

As a separate problem, it seems like ShoPro is stubbornly disconnected from reality. Ratings are dropping, fans have long decried problems like the shoehorning-in of bumbling Team Rocket or the seasonal reset button, and yet ShoPro continues to stick to its decades-old formula. I honestly think they need to retire Ash. That is separate from whether I want him to be retired or not. Want it or don't want it, I think it needs to happen. They had a golden opportunity here in Gen 6 to retain Ash yet abandon the old formula, and they didn't take it. Ash still lost, Ash will still box his regional acquisitions, Ash will still be reset when he goes to the new region.

One of the problems fans that span a generation, fans of any age who watch more than one region's anime, have with this franchise is that you can't get invested in the characters who grow because their growth is both a) poorly written in most cases and b) jettisoned at the start of each new region in favor of new clean slates. Part of what perpetuates this problem ... is the formula itself, which requires that Ash and Pikachu always stick around. You could have real, meaningful growth for both trainer and Pokémon if each new regional anime had its own protagonists.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

If nothing else, the point of what you just watched was that the writers gave the fans what they'd asked for. "Please don't have him stop at Top 8. Please have him at least make Top 4 if not Top 2 if not the championship title. Please." Well, they did that. Not only did they give him Top 4, they did one better: they gave him Top 2. This is Ash's second best performance ever, and his best performance in what many fans would consider to be "an official league," with numerous fans looking down on Orange Islands because of its made-for-TV status. So whether you want to call it second best or first best, this is one of Ash's best performances to date. They didn't repeat Unova (where he fell from 4th to 8th). Nor did they repeat Sinnoh (where he lost to a ringer). You can call Alain a "ringer" if you like, but Alain's been in the headlights since early 2014, since well before ORAS was even released. We've seen his ascent coming from miles away.

[Doppleganger]

I'm going to watch the raw before you mofos get a chance to spoil this.

Spoiler: show

Well, that was heartbreaking.

Even with the troll title to really bait us all. How cruel.

[dirkac]

I knew it was the right decision to dtop watching after DP

[Doppleganger]

Spoiler: show

24 hours later and I'm even more mad than I was yesterday. Which isn't much, because I wasn't mad at all yesterday!

ShoPro is literally the honey badger of anime studios. Because honey badger don't give a shit.

[Char]

Spoiler: show

sigh lost

[Doppleganger]

Spoiler: show

...



...

[Talon87]

Doppel asked me to write up a post detailing why XY is the best Pokémon anime series in generations. The problem is, I don't agree with that assertion. It's a perfectly fine series (as Pokémon series go), but it's got its fair share of problems and I liked a number of other seasons, overall, better.

I'll keep things "brief" for now. Perhaps in future, I'll go into greater detail.

Up until the summer camp episodes (late 30s, early 40s), XY is without a doubt one of the best series we've had. It inherits a lot of Best Wishes' strengths and removes some of its most controversial changes to the formula. I might consider this a regressive downgrade, e.g. the return of Comic Relief Team Rocket, but for most fans the result is going to be sublime. Character-driven writing with a heavy focus on character development and actually writing characters. Good use of budget to make exciting things happen on screen. Taking off the kiddy gloves and showing just how violent or extreme this world can be. And Serena, Serena, Serena.

Like a lot of stories that end up disappointing people, XY's opening is aided by the fact that, early on in any story, it's an open book. Little is set in stone this early. So much has yet to be explored. Fans' imaginations can run wild, as mine did, and they can ask for their wishes to come true. XY sets up for a lot of fan wishes early on, more than any other Pokémon series in recent memory, only to dash most of these wishes by series' end. Serena's crush on Ash ... Ash's battle prowess ... Serena being a unique and human character, one who doesn't conform to either the Misty-Iris mold nor the May-Dawn mold ... Ash's small team roster meaning we should have nothing but the best in well-written, well-developed characters ... all of this, at one point or another, will be demolished by series' end.

The turning point in XY's story really is the finale of the story arc in which Korrina is trying to reach the Mega Evolution old woman's village so she can get advice on the situation with Lucario. Up until that episode, including all the other Korrina episodes before it, the series was doing great. That episode, it utterly ruined the Korrina arc. And not only that, but was incidentally a turning point for the entire series too. We never really recovered from there. The gym battles began to feel stale and forgettable. The Ashmon began to feel generic and blank in terms of their personalities. The attention paid to Serena dropped off despite her being one of the most popular characters in years, and when we did hone in on her we focused on the one thing I never wanted to see -- Tripokalons, a.k.a. Contests by another name, a.k.a. for the third time now we've made the female traveling companion a Contest idol.

But while the turning point can be pinpointed at Korrina reaching her destination, for me personally the big "shat the bed" moment has to be summer camp. Summer camp was where the show, in hindsight, went to shit lost its chance at greatness.

Originally Posted by Talon87

And so now, with most of the other aspects of the episode having been explored, let's talk Serena. This was clearly her episode. And it was an episode which focused on a complaint that many of Serena's critics have been voicing for months now. "When is she going to decide on a career path and which career is she going to pick!? "

The thing is, I'm in the minority when it comes to this complaint. I actually loved that Serena was indecisive about her future, that she was good at so many things but none of them really grabbed her and made her go, "Yes. This is what I want to do for the rest of my life." Maybe this is partly because I can relate to it on a deep and personal level. And maybe this is partly because of how refreshing it is to have a main character in the Pokémon universe not know what she wants to do next. From the moment we met Misty, she was already on a mission to become a Water-type Pokémon Master. From the moment we met Brock, he wanted to set forth into the world to become a Pokémon Breeder. (He later changed his career path, but a) Brock always had a goal in mind while we knew him and b) this doesn't change the fact that he still knew exactly what he wanted to be when we first met him.) Dawn already knew that she wanted to be a Contest Coordinator. And even May, who took some fifteen or so episodes to figure out that contests were for her, was a character who, from the moment we met her, knew that she didn't want to tour the gym circuit and challenge the Pokémon League. Yet Serena was unlike any other companion character we'd met before. She was beautiful, not unintelligent, and capable of doing many things. She demonstrated the capacity to become a Rhyhorn racer. She demonstrated the capacity to become a pastry chef. She demonstrated the capacity to make PokéVision videos. She even demonstrated the capacity to arrange flowers. There are many hobbies and careers which Serena has courted and yet none of them have really stuck. She's been a jack of all trades, master of none so far. And that's frustrated many viewers. But boy if it hasn't been something I've enjoyed watching, knowing that it wouldn't last forever and appreciating it while it was here for its realism. It sends kids who don't know what they want to be when they grow up a healthy message: "it's okay. You'll figure it out someday. "

Well, it looks like the time may have finally come for Serena to find her answer. Episode 039 by no means confirms anything, but it points in two possible directions: becoming a Pokémon Performer and becoming a Pokémon Master. Let's tackle these in turn.

If the episode suggests anything, it's that Serena is most likely to wind up becoming a Pokémon Performer. Episode 039 does things like:

• bringing to Serena's attention that her talent at making PokéVision videos has not gone unnoticed
• giving her a new best friend in Shauna, one who is especially passionate about PokéVision videos
• giving her a friendly rival in Shauna, someone she can strive to keep ahead of or at least not fall too far behind from

It would be somewhat strange, though not impossible, for Serena to go and become something else other than a Pokémon Performer now that XY039 has set the stage for her. But part of me honestly kind of hopes that she won't pursue this career. :\ And I'll tell you why: I worry that she's pursuing this career for mostly the wrong reasons.

Before Serena met Shauna, PokéVision videos had been nothing more than a one-time distraction that she'd tried out, had some fun with, and then forgotten all about. It wasn't something that she enjoyed so much that she couldn't wait to record her next video with Fennekin. She didn't even do the basic research that would have brought to her attention that these videos can be viewed remotely, their view counts visible as well. Shauna had to tell Serena this. For a girl who didn't even know that basic of a fact about PokéVision videos, it strikes me as weird for the writers to now try and argue that PokéVision videos are Serena's passion. And thankfully, they don't argue that. They have Serena considering it, but the episode ends with her on the dock alone with Fennekin, looking somewhat sad and alone, staring up into the starry night sky, wondering what to do with herself. At least that shows that the writers aren't clumsy enough to have Serena go from "forget they even existed" to "MY #1 PASSION IN LIFE, YES PLEASE! " At least if she does pursue PokéVision video making we can expect her pursuit to be a bit more realistic. I hope so, anyway. ^^;

The second likelihood that the episode points to for Serena, as unexpected as it might be, is that she wants to become a Pokémon Master like Ash. I think this theory is a lot less likely for a number of reasons. For starters, up until now Serena has shown little interest in partaking in Pokémon battles herself. She's had plenty of opportunities but so far she has tended to leave the practice battles to the boys. Serena has shown no interest in touring the gym circuit, collecting badges. She hasn't really done anything to indicate that she'd want to become a Pokémon Master until now. So why do I even voice such a crazy theory?

Because of the things she says and does in Episode 039, that's why. For starters, Serena is shown multiple times throughout the episode muttering to herself under a breath, "A Pokémon Master, huh ..." as she thinks about Ash and his career goals. The most obvious way to interpret this is that she's just reflecting on what Ash wants to do with his life. But there's the also-obvious possibility that she's intrigued by the career choice and is contemplating it herself. Second, this episode does not have Serena revisit PokéVision video making. However, what it does explore ... is having her partake in her very first refereed Pokémon Battle. She even remarks on this to Shauna, who seems a bit surprised that this is Serena's first. You can tell during her fight with Shauna that Serena's eyes light up, that she feels possessed by a strange sensation, that she doesn't know what is happening but she likes it. Serena is enjoying refereed Pokémon battling. We don't get to see the outcome of her match with Shauna, but whether she won or lost, it's clear at dinner that night that she had a very fun time. So yeah. Even though I completely agree that the episode more strongly suggests that Serena will become a Pokémon Performer than that she will become a Pokémon Master, I'm just saying that the episode does do a few things to raise the possibility.

And I've gotta say: I'd be so much happier if she pursued this than the Pokémon Performer thing. That's not to say that I will be unhappy if she chooses to become a Performer. Just that I think it would be so much more incredible if she chose to become a Pokémon Master instead. A, it'd be fun alone for the surprise that it'd be! B, I absolutely adoooooooooooore the idea of a husband-and-wife Pokémon Master pair in Ash and Serena. C, she would be the very first companion of Ash's who has shared his exact goal. Misty was segregated off into aiming to become a Water-type Master, and Iris was segregated off into aiming to become a Dragon-type Master. No one of Ash's traveling companions has ever aimed for the general category before. At least none that I can recall. I believe Serena would be the first. And damn if that wouldn't make her hot appealing to Ash if she were now this girl who shared his specific career dream.

Anyway, it's okay. Serena is more than likely going to become a Pokémon Performer and that can still be fun. We'll just have to see how fun.

That's an excerpt from my thoughts on XY039, which aired almost exactly two years ago today. And you can see that back then, I was optimistic about the Tripokalon thing. I didn't declare it to be bad. I didn't go into it wanting to hate it, expecting to see it fail. But there were two key problems with what ShoPro did in 39:

1. They cut Serena's uncertainty about her future short prematurely, in response to pressure from an agitated chunk of the fandom (of which I was no part) who couldn't STAND that she still didn't know what she wanted to do with her life.
2. They went for the boring, low-hanging fruit of a May clone instead of doing something breathtaking.

Knowing what we know now about XY, I am comfortable declaring that ShoPro would never have given me my wish of seeing Serena co-pursue the Pokémon Master career track alongside Ash. We know the studio is too scared to deviate from their decades-old formula. We know they plan to retire Serena at the end of this region. Hell, already there are apparent signs in the newest episodes that they intend to rewrite Serena's relationship with Ash from "girl who has a borderline obsessive crush on the guy" to "girl who admires the guy platonically and considers herself 'Femme Clemont' in this regard." But even if they weren't the studio to give me my dream, I still feel like ShoPro had it in them to at least stick to their own guns. Give us a solid year (52 episodes) of Serena trying to figure out what she wants to do with her life. And whatever you decide, certainly don't push her off onto a career track that she's shown little passion for beforehand and which is a boring copy-paste of two previous heroines' own journeys through life.

If Serena is what made early XY so great, ShoPro dropping the ball with Serena is certainly, at least in part, what has made later XY so mediocre.

[deoxys]

900 episodes in and it seems we still, for some reason, expect the anime to actually deliver what fans want... it seems the studio will never do anything that could slightly deviate from or shake up the repetitive, boring cycle, because it's not the fans they're catering to, it's the kids and the investors, god forbid they do anything 'different' outside of filler episodes.

"Honestly though, when has the Pokemon anime ever done anything to please its fans?" - my gf

[Celebii151]

Well, I mean, the Anime really is mostly for promoting the games (mostly for children), rather than providing viewers with a decent viewing experience.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by deoxys

"Honestly though, when has the Pokemon anime ever done anything to please its fans?" - my gf

That's easy: Best Wishes.

Originally Posted by Talon87

I've written before, here and on BMG, that Unova was in many ways a wish-granting series. It took a look at the wishlists of many a Kanto era fanboy and it said, "Well okay then: let's do it. "

• smaller gaps between gym battles
  • Gym 1 battle begins: BW005
  • Gym 2 battle begins: BW015
  • Gym 3 battle begins: BW025
  • Gym 4 battle begins: BW051
  • Gym 5 battle begins: BW063
  • Gym 6 battle begins: BW070
  • Gym 7 battle begins: BW081
  • Gym 8 battle begins: BW085
  Longest gap (and the only one of its kind) was 26 episodes. Shortest gap was 4 episodes. Average gap was 11.4 episodes.
• more battling
  • the more closely-spaced gym battles
  • the frequent Don Tournaments
• less filler
  • the first half of the series, not counting the filler arc between Gyms 3 and 4, was practically devoid of Johto-style filler episodes.
  • What little filler was present practically deserves air quotes around the word "filler" because it either tied into the plot of the video games (e.g. stealing the Dragonite skull from Nacrene City's museum) or else it featured Ash capturing a new Pokémon, evolving an old Pokémon, or teaching an old Pokémon a new move
• no more Comic Relief Team Rocket
  • they were turned rather serious, competent, and even occasionally successful in their missions
  • they showed up very infrequently, maybe only once every five to six episodes
  • no more "blasting off again!" or similar; even in defeat, they were smooth and serious
  • alas, no more Wobuffett ^^;
• Ash capturing more than six or seven Pokémon a region, just like he did in Kanto!
  • main squad: Pikachu, Oshawott, Snivy, Tepig, Scraggy (baby), Krookodile
  • support squad: Unfezant, Leavanny, Boldore, Palpitoad
  • for the first time in the history of the franchise, Ash would make deposits and withdrawals off camera. This enabled the writers to write episodes with whichever six Pokémon they pleased. No longer were they beholden to canon concerns about Ash's team shifting around. Write with you who want, writers!

And much more.

Oshawott remains a top-tier Pokémon when it comes to all-time best written / best established and developed characters. I'd place him below Charizard and Chikorita but only just. (All of them below Kanto Pikachu, who when you re-visit Kanto really does have a crapton of personality that has just sadly ... somehow been lost along the way, invisible by Sinnoh.)

Unova S1 really, really understood the importance of character writing. "There's no such thing as 'filler': every episode not spent advancing the plot is a golden opportunity to flesh out characters." If you haven't watched Best Wishes S1 and you care to waste any of your adult life at all watching Pokémon, I'd suggest you check it out. It is without a doubt the best exercise in character writing since Johto (Chikorita). Oshawott, Snivy, Emolga, Sandile ... each of these is worth two Greninjas, five Hawluchas, or ten Goodras when it comes to the character writing.

Best Wishes is also the closest you're going to get to "freed from the formula" writing, owing in humongous part to no obligation to include Team Rocket in every episode. With all due respect to the Rocket Trio's voice actors who I otherwise adore, fuck the voice actors and fuck their selfish aims for forcing the bumbling idiot version of the trio back upon us, and in well over 50% of XY episodes to boot. It's horrible. I hate them (the characters, not the VAs) so, so much. Unova not only rewrote them for the better, it understood that "sometimes less is more" and that by not including the Rocket Trio in every episode, you actually get the audience to care more when they do show up. How 'bout that.

[dirkac]

ok uh

yeah tbh Best Wishes was early on a very solid season, but it really deopped off hard and just floundered about way too much for my liking.


I really thought Serena was actually going to pursue a form of Battling, now that you bring it up, and to be honest I would have loved to see her continue being pretty much aimless until like Episode 70 while simply showing an interest in official Battling without really wanting to pursue it.

Ideal situation she would seperate from the group a little, get Badges to try and impress Ash/wanting to Battle, and be the first perma companion to enter the League alongside Ash, but I mean

Literally nothing of that ever panned out so

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Celebii151

Well, I mean, the Anime really is mostly for promoting the games (mostly for children), rather than providing viewers with a decent viewing experience.

Not true! To really ascertain this, you need to know who is responsible for the funding.

As is the case for most LN anime adaptions now, a LN publisher funds the anime as basically a big commercial to boost the LN sales. This is probably the scenario you're thinking of. Take the anime No Game, No Life, which had high DVD sales for Madhouse but was infamous for having zero chance at a second season:

Originally Posted by ANN

Production: Kadokawa Corporation (Media Factory)

Kadokawa footed the entire bill. They don't care how the anime does. They just care about the LN sales, and the anime did it s job in that respect.

By comparison, for Pokemon:

Originally Posted by ANN

Medianet
Shogakukan-Shueisha Productions
TV Tokyo

Gamefreak and Nintendo have no horse in this race! Gamefreak provides the setting under contract and Nintendo owns the copyright. But TVTokyo (the broadcaster), has a vested interest in high ratings. ShoPro has its fingers in the pies of different media formes, not just book publishing (which is all Kadokawa is) and so has a vested interest in Pokemon doing well for all of its related properties.

The game have influence on the anime but the reverse is almost never true (save Yellow_. The anime could do whatever it wants, and that's why the G1 anime could be so experimental. Let's not forget that in every game, the player basically lays waste to the region and brutally slays the criminal group and the champion in the same rampage.

Will talk to Talon when I wake up.

Nighty night, sleep greeter, don't let the Darkrai use Dream Eater

[Doppleganger]

I was aware Talon (and BBB) liked BW early on, but I'm surprised Talon still liked other series more. To be honest I'm a bit of a faker, since I soft-dropped XY years ago and only started to pay attention when people were talking about the Pokemon League.

My main problem is pacing, so I wonder if I'd like BW. I don't care for 3-year build up into an ending like what we got this week. I don't hate filler if it's fun or interesting, so long as it's not irrelevant to the plot. Ash's Pokemon learned new moves in filler episodes during Kanto so the filler wasn't worthless. Little things like that to contribute to the overarching story are acceptable.

Still. It's a bit sobering to hear that XY has been stagnant for almost two years. I wonder if that exposure helped reign in expectations, since the hype train definitely recruited in those not paying attention like myself.

Serena as a Pokemon Master would have been an interesting idea, and hilariously accurate to the games, but even if ShoPro were a more daring studio, that's asking for the moon, I feel. Serena is not nearly as talented as Ash, so she's destined to fail (ALTHOUGH IT WOULD BE INTERESTING to see her challenge the same Gym Leaders as Ash). Ash isn't emotionally capable of really supporting her. Would have been tasty to watch.

Also, here's a transcript since I need to get some stuff prepared:

Originally Posted by AIM

big bad birtha: Most long time fans hated BW
big bad birtha: but I, who dropped Pokemon a while back, enjoyed the hell out of it
Doppleganger: No team rocket was probably a big help, but I never really cared for TR anyway.
big bad birtha: Err....what you just said
Doppleganger: I used to think that Ash practicing on TR every single episode helped make him super strong
big bad birtha: All they did was ruin stories and eat time.
Doppleganger: I have a pretty somber theory myself
Doppleganger: Talon pointed out that the Rocket Trio's CVs hated BW because they loved comic relief TR
Doppleganger: I think that's actually a BS response
Doppleganger: in truth, they probably disliked losing screen time because they (along with Matsumodo) are the highest payroll CVs on the Pokemon staff
Doppleganger: they say
Doppleganger: "blasting off again" and collect their huge paycheck, which they couldn't in BW
big bad birtha: Yup