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Old 02-18-2013, 05:21 PM   #26
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I think it's also the extremely high number of cover-ups that really isn't helping. A pedophile who does the crime but doesn't get caught will keep being a child predator. Unfortunately, they can't really be open about this because it's a public relations nightmare. How will you both keep the faith and gain new followers if they have to fear for the safety of their families?

If I remember correctly, even in John Paul II's era, they've been trying to ramp up the screening process for people entering priesthood with psychological evaluations and background checks. While it's was a step forward, it's really not enough.

They really do need to stop them once they've been caught, even if it does come with backlash. Being open about it will be bad at first, but once pedophiles see they can't hide under the veil of the church, they'll stop using it and eventually regain the faith of the people.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:28 PM   #27
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I think that female priests should be allowed as should male priests be allowed to get married and have families.

I also think that Doppel's point about the child predators in the cloth is correct. It's not that the current rules (men only, no marriage) are creating a breeding grounds for pedophiles. It's that men who are already pedophiles have been disproportionately attracted to positions in the Church. I'm not sure how much hard, cold evidence there is for this theory, but it seems to me be the more likely explanation. If we were trying to equate occupational exposure with "turning pedo", to me that would be like trying to equate occupational exposure with "turning gay". Working in an all-male environment doesn't turn you gay, and working in an environment with lots of children doesn't turn you into a pedophile. Not only that, but it's not even as though the job of a priest entails that much more exposure to children than your average person gets. Think of the men you knew who were teachers in primary school, for instance. What's more likely: that the one of them who was a pedophile "turned pedo" as a result of being around precocious children? Or that the one of them who was a pedophile was already a pedophile to begin with and he chose to become a teacher because that was to him the dream job for gaining access to all these boys and girls to choose from year after year? Preeeeeeeetty certain the latter case is the one that would explain 99% of cases of pedo primary school teachers.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:14 PM   #28
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I think that female priests should be allowed as should male priests be allowed to get married and have families.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the only ban that exists is that a priest can't be married while he's serving and is formally banned from fathering children. However, there are cases of priests fathering children (by breaking their vows) and the church having to deal with it, and many cases of widowers or those with previous relationships becoming clergy.

Like, the priest who replaced my original pastor was a badarse. He was a career Air Force who left the service when his sister and her husband were killed in an accident, orphaning their four child/teenage daughters. He raised them and became an X-ray technician before taking the initiation to become a priest. All four were grown by the time he came to us, but I think he was still raising them in his old diocese.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:21 PM   #29
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I think I remember learning that priests were not allowed to have children because it caused disputes over inheritance.

Originally priests did have families, but the land and money belonged to the Church and not the priest himself. So when he passed away, the families would fight for the rights of the church's land and any money gained. This caused them to enact a ban on marriage and of coarse having children.

The non-female priests is probably just old fashioned male dominated society stuff.

Tell me if I'm totally wrong, but that's what I had been told.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:26 PM   #30
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The first part I don't know the history. The second part regarding female priests is 100% correct. There are some concerns about damaging the church's image with a "priestess", the Catholics not wanting to draw association with voodoo or pagans and the like, but I don't see why there can't be a priestess and nuns in the same organization. The pragmatic in me also sees a lot of benefit in allowing openly homosexual and female priests as church leaders...I mean, hypothetically speaking, for non-hardcore religious guys, would they go to church if Taylor Swift was the pastor?

In secularville, we have female doctors and female nurses. Also male nurses. There's like no reason not to do this. It's smart and it's progressive.

Them dinosaurs need to evolve into dragons already.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:07 PM   #31
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.... No....
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:37 PM   #32
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No to women? No to homosexuals? No to dinosaurs evolving into dragons? No to possibly incorrect history?
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:59 PM   #33
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No to both of your questions, and basically everything Doppel said. There are theological reasons for an all male priesthood that is celibate.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:00 PM   #34
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Would you like to elaborate?
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:54 AM   #35
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If this is going to become a debate, not really... there's plenty of stuff on Wikipedia explaining this, I'd imagine.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:02 PM   #36
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I understand all of the reasons behind it (we've discussed this much back in high school religious classes), I just think it's time to examine other options. Dopple uses the reasoning to be that it is the devil tempting the hearts of the weak willed priests, and coming from someone who isn't catholic but grew up surrounded by catholics, I can't obviously give my greatest input here. I just think that it would be wise to, shall we say, (for lack of a better term, please take no offense) get with the times, and attempt to rectify the issues within the church via actually taking steps to prevent them as opposed to condemning them and praying, and then not doing much else. Because clearly, this method isn't working.

BUT HEY! That's just my two cents! Like MG said, I'm not looking to start a debate, these are just the musings of someone who has seen it all from the outside looking in very closely. Take it as you will.

Also, MG, I never took the time to appreciate your signature. I feel flattered and I also feel it is my duty to tell you that I'm not magnificent.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:24 PM   #37
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Would you like to elaborate?
The "conservative" Catholic attitude is that you can't debate this issue because it's the word of God that women can't be priests. Divine will/word or something like that, rather than doctrine which can be changed due to theological scholarship. God never really said anything like that, the church is using the patriarchal tradition/history of the church as evidence that God intended men only to be priests. The RCC classifies male priesthood as divine will to completely sidestep even discussing the issue.

It's obviously hand waving, so that's why some Catholic scholars continue to protest against it.

Normally, I wouldn't really care so much. But in this era of declining faith and the RCC clearly abandoning Europe as a source of new Catholics and focusing on Latin America and Africa, where they are competing with Mormon, Jewish, Islamic and Scientology missionaries, it really annoys me that the faithful are marginalized due to misguided political vision. I don't want another schism and things seem headed for that route as young Catholics becoming increasing liberal and challenge-minded.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:52 PM   #38
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>Scientology missionaries

Do Scientologists really proselytize that heavily?
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:05 PM   #39
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They only target the rich and politically influential, so you will probably not see them in poor villages of Uganda but they're active in the richer countries. I know this because the Catholics target the richer nations too, since they're sources of both faithful and donations.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:53 PM   #40
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Ah okay that makes sense. I guess my mind was gravitating towards traditional Catholic missions but considering a huge portion of the world has been at least exposed to Christianity, I'd imagine that wouldn't be top priority anymore.
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:29 AM   #41
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He's not resigning, it's just a plan to turn it all over to British Rule.

Or is that the wrong Benedict?

Either way, as far as the female and/or non-heterosexual priests, as a gay member of the cloth (although of a different religion, of course), I would express my full support for them finally opening the doors there and letting openly homosexual or female humans into the clergy. For one, if celibacy is still wholeheartedly supported (which is a different issue entirely), there should be no real marked differences between a heterosexual or a homosexual priest, bar that the urges for carnal sins they hold themselves to denying have slight differences, insofar as gender of the potential partners they will never have, by their own honor. Just as pointless is negativity towards women serving as priests; women have just as much of a chance of being a beacon of integrity and inspiration as men, and some are even more natural leaders than most men, as well. Gender is largely a societal construct; however, that is the main barrier, as many old cultures and religions especially are largely patriarchal and some truly fear having to accept that women can easily be just as good as men at some things. Although I should probably stop there. I don't want to drunkrant too much, and if the gender discrimination/gender roles/whatever issue becomes too big, we could just move that tengental part to debate.

Seacrest, out.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:55 AM   #42
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But if they let homosexuals be priests, then they might molest the chil...

Oh. Right.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:03 AM   #43
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"If we let a human live past the age of 5 they might do something immoral! Oh no!"
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:40 AM   #44
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Seacrest, out.
I cringed.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:45 AM   #45
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"If we let a human live past the age of 5 they might do something immoral! Oh no!"
Like grow up to be a catholic priest!

*ba-dum-tish*

Don't worry, I still love ya MG.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:36 PM   #46
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Quote:
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No to both of your questions, and basically everything Doppel said. There are theological reasons for an all male priesthood that is celibate.
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Would you like to elaborate?
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If this is going to become a debate, not really... there's plenty of stuff on Wikipedia explaining this, I'd imagine.
While it needn't become a debate, Cardinal Keith O'Brien has sided with Doppel on this one. Quote:
Quote:
But Cardinal O'Brien, who is the Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh, said it would be within the scope of the new Pope to consider whether the Roman Catholic Church should change its stance on other issues, which were not of divine origin.

He explained: "For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry - Jesus didn't say that.

"There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church - in some branches of the Catholic church - priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."
So, considering a top-level member of the Catholic Church is saying that it's open to debate and re-examination, I'd say that means it's open to debate and re-examination. A quick read-thru of Wikipedia's articles on Catholicity does not a closed case make it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:42 PM   #47
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Why did you go all Yoda at the end?
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:46 PM   #48
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:54 PM   #49
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The distinction though is that he's talking about priests and marriage, which isn't classified by the Church as a "divine origin" issue, while women priests is. And I'm against priests getting married too...beyond the highly publicized molestation cases, priests on the whole don't seem to have a problem maintaining celibacy. I don't think I'd have a problem seeing priests married, though it would be a bit odd, but celibacy is a virtue and I like having authority figures I respect in charge of molding faith.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:58 PM   #50
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The distinction though is that he's talking about priests and marriage, which isn't classified by the Church as a "divine origin" issue, while women priests is. And I'm against priests getting married too...beyond the highly publicized molestation cases, priests on the whole don't seem to have a problem maintaining celibacy. I don't think I'd have a problem seeing priests married, though it would be a bit odd, but celibacy is a virtue and I like having authority figures I respect in charge of molding faith.
The red font changes are mine and identify a rather irreconcilable self-contradiction. Are you are or are you not okay with priests getting married? You say you're against it, but then you go on to say you wouldn't have a problem with it. Does that mean you don't really care either way? Does it mean that if you had your choice you'd ask them not to marry but you're 100% in favor of them being allowed to decide for themselves whether they'll marry or not?
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