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Old 10-04-2016, 12:39 PM   #1
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Ash-Greninja promo coming via Sun/Moon demo on Oct. 18th [NO SPOILERS]

NO SUN AND MOON SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD.

Nintendo announced today that the demo for Sun and Moon will be coming to the Nintendo eShop on October 18th, just two weeks from today. Anyone who downloads and completes the demo will receive Ash-Greninja in-game on its full release a month later. As far as we know right now, completing the demo is the only way to obtain Ash-Greninja in-game.

If anyone tries to argue this is technically a spoiler, I will fight you (because it's not). This gives those who are avoiding spoilers the opportunity to decide whether or not they would like to play the demo to receive this exclusive Pokemon.

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Old 10-04-2016, 03:25 PM   #2
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A little more info revealed on Ash-Greninja in the games:

Ash-Greninja

Category: Ninja Pokémon
Type: Water/Dark
Height: 4'11"
Weight: 88.2 lbs.
Ability: Battle Bond

"Ash-Greninja has powered up thanks to the strength of its bonds with Ash. This is the form Greninja takes when it has gained new power due to the miraculous occurrence known as the bond phenomenon. This can be brought on by the bonds between people and Pokémon. It seems that it has only known to have occurred once—several hundred years ago.

"Ash-Greninja's leg strength has been enhanced compared to an ordinary Greninja, making it difficult to see because of the speed at which it can move. It takes its enemies out in a flash! It becomes able to make giant Water Shurikens on its back, and it can throw them in rapid succession.

"Greninja that can become Ash-Greninja have an Ability that no Pokémon has ever had before—Battle Bond. The Battle Bond Ability triggers this Pokémon’s form change to Ash-Greninja after it causes an opponent’s Pokémon to faint. When the battle ends, the Pokémon returns to its original Greninja form. This form is only for battles where it needs to break the limits!"
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Old 10-04-2016, 03:36 PM   #3
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So this raises the question- exactly how useful will Greninjash be in battle, as opposed to your average Protean Greninja? I've seen some negative outlooks on this subject, with people saying the stat boosts won't be enough to compensate for losing Protean, comparing it to Mega Latios, crap like that. I say let's wait and see just how much this boosts its stats before we judge this.

I'm personally hyped for this. Always liked Ash-Greninja, and with Battle Bond being a thing, I have to wonder if we might be getting anything else in Sun/Moon capable of Bond Phenomenon.
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Old 10-04-2016, 03:44 PM   #4
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This Battle Bond mechanic is pretty weird. It sounds like a faux-mega evolution that only activates under the condition that Greninja first KO a Pokemon.

I have to agree the Protean seems too good to lose. I have a feeling Ash-Greninja won't really actually be viable and is more like a novelty of sorts. Same goes for the whole Bond thing. I wouldn't hold your breath or put too much stock into it actually being a thing outside of this.
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Old 10-04-2016, 04:27 PM   #5
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Ash Greninja might be more physical, like he is in the anime, and that might make him valid even without protean. But it really depends on the stats it gets.
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Old 10-04-2016, 04:36 PM   #6
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Ash Greninja is worse than normal Greninja. Physical Water-types always take a bit of a shafting but Greninja doesn't have a solid physical movepool to back it up and Protean is by far one of the most overpowered abilities in the game.

Simply put, no stat change could really save this. Protean is just THAT good and special Greninja was always significantly better.
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Old 10-04-2016, 04:45 PM   #7
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The movepool issue can easily be fixed this gen. But I agree with you Emi, even with a good physical movepool, Protean is just too good, both offensive and defensive.

I still want one though, it'll be a funny gimmick to have.
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Old 10-06-2016, 01:46 AM   #8
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On the demo: I wonder how much of the data is in the demo this time around. Last time, with ORAS's demo, they "messed up" (depends on how you look at it) and included all of the creature data on Hoopa in the demo; that in turn allowed us to know Hoopa's forms, typings, and the fact that Hoopa's Unbound Form was not going to be a mega proper all in advance of the game's release. We even had Hyperspace Fury revealed ahead of time. So the question I have with this demo is, have Game Freak learned their lesson? Are they going to only include the creature data of those few, select creatures they revealed to you guys during the past few months of spoiler season? Or are they going to put the entire kit and caboodle in there? The answer to this question, which I suspect we won't know for certain until October 19, is going to determine whether the next four weeks are little different from the past few months or whether they require a complete social media blackout for spoiler avoiders. We'll see.

On Ash-Greninja: This is kind of a surprising move. Granted, I don't know much about Sun & Moon. But I figured that if Ash-Greninja were to be a thing, then it'd be the case that he were a Greninja specific to Ash Ketchum and that a) to see Ash-Greninja in the game you'd need to see Ash's first-ever in-game avatar and b) to have your own Greninja you'd have to settle for [yournamehere]-Greninja, a Greninja that would take on your own player character's hair style and color as well as a few other fashion details. The fact that they're making Ash-Greninja a ... subspecies, is really rather surprising to me. It's like they're saying, "There's this entire subgroup of Greninja known as Ash-Greninja ... dozens, thousands of them in society ... and these Ash-Greninja, they all happen to look like this one Japanese boy named Ash Ketchum." I mean, seriously: what the hell. What is going on here? Is Ash suddenly a vergence of the Force? Is he a prophesied Chosen One, a boy whose coming was foretold by the genetic lineage of an entire subspecies of frog? Oh please.

Whether he will be viable or not ... again, been avoiding spoilers for Sun & Moon so can't really weigh in as much as some of you can. I can weigh in as far as a Gen 6-informed fan can. From a Gen 6-informed fan's perspective, I suppose I'm undecided on Ash-Greninja's usefulness. It depends on several factors, really:
  • Does he have any custom moves? (And if so, are they more useful than what ordinary Greninja has access to?) A good example would be Ash-Greninja's daishuriken displayed in the anime. We know that regular Greninja has the crappy move Water Shuriken, but will Ash-Greninja have Water Daishuriken? And will Water Daishuriken perhaps have greater overall power than Water Shuriken does?
    • Example: it only strikes once, fitting for a daishuriken, but it has a base power of 120 with no drawbacks. 100% accuracy, hell, it might even slice through a few things like screens or defensive buffs, who knows.
  • Does he have any changes to his base stats?
    • Example: his base Attack stat increases by 15 points while his base Speed increases by 10 points
  • Does he remain as Ash-Greninja for the duration of the battle, even after he's been returned to his PokéBall? (This one is huge, as it's the status quo for megas in the games but in the anime megas have pretty much never been returned to their balls after mega evolving without fainting.)
  • Does his bond phenomenon count towards the limit of one mega evolution per battle? Y/N
    • If no, and if he also enjoys some of the usual benefits of mega evolutions (like stat increases), this could be pretty big.
As a Greninja trainer, I agree completely: Protean is huge. Easily the best OU-relevant ability they created in Gen 6. So much so that Smogon eventually deigned to ban it. (De facto, anyway, because lol at the thought of Protean Kecleon new OU meta. ) But just because Protean Greninja is awesome doesn't mean that Ash-Greninja can't be awesome -- or that he can't even be more awesome. Let's not forget -- neither Mega Lucario nor Mega Gengar have Protean either, but I don't see you guys suggesting that this disqualifies them from being better than Protean Greninja. It's entirely possible that Ash-Greninja will be an equally good or even a superior choice to Protean Greninja.
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Old 10-06-2016, 02:11 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
As a Greninja trainer, I agree completely: Protean is huge. Easily the best OU-relevant ability they created in Gen 6. So much so that Smogon eventually deigned to ban it. (De facto, anyway, because lol at the thought of Protean Kecleon new OU meta. ) But just because Protean Greninja is awesome doesn't mean that Ash-Greninja can't be awesome -- or that he can't even be more awesome. Let's not forget -- neither Mega Lucario nor Mega Gengar have Protean either, but I don't see you guys suggesting that this disqualifies them from being better than Protean Greninja. It's entirely possible that Ash-Greninja will be an equally good or even a superior choice to Protean Greninja.
No offense to you but as someone who's been embroiled in the competitive scene for far too long to be healthy, equating Ash-Greninja to Mega Lucario and Mega Gengar is frankly silly. The two Megas have incredibly useful abilities in their own right (Adaptability and Shadow Tag respectively), which really defeats the purpose of the argument that "oh they don't have Protean but they can still be good!" while Battle Bond really only fills the role of being a conditional Mega Stone. This is besides the fact that the combination of their abilities, movepools, stats, typings, and so forth make the quick comparison pretty invalid. As a whole, it's highly doubtful that on the merits of its stat boost alone (that we are presuming is occurring at this point and is hopefully on par with the boost received from a standard Mega Evolution) that it will even come close to the utility of immediately gaining STAB on any of your moves as well as the benefits of changing typing to whatever you want that turn. From the description of Ash-Greninja it sounds like Speed is definitely going to be something boosted, which really wasn't an issue with Greninja, and then its offensive stats, which were already seeing a boost all around thanks to the STAB provided by Protean. Unless the boosts are particularly significant, and judging by the likely Speed boost they probably won't be unless they make Greninja even more frail, there's really not much reason to utilize Ash-Greninja over his Protean brethren.

To answer your queries the best I can from the information I've gleaned behind the scenes, it is very likely that he will receive a stat change of some variety as well as a 99% almost-surety that Ash-Greninja will remain as such for the entire battle given this line in its description; "The Battle Bond Ability triggers this Pokémon’s form change to Ash-Greninja after it causes an opponent’s Pokémon to faint. When the battle ends, the Pokémon returns to its original Greninja form." The form change would very likely not count towards the Mega Evolution counter and to be truly useful, he would have to gain stats on the Mega-level, otherwise his utility falls even further. I mean, I could see them doing something small since its a novelty but I guess we'll see. Custom moves it's hard to tell, but I would assume it will probably get 1-2 signature moves and that'd be about it.
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Old 10-06-2016, 03:13 AM   #10
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No offense to you but as someone who's been embroiled in the competitive scene for far too long to be healthy
I've been involved in the competitive scene longer than Kuno has been on UPN. I was AIM buddies in the year 2000 with national champions. Loki introduced me to Gen 3 bots that predated Smogon. Seniority has nothing to do with what either of us have to say. The arguments stand or fall based on their own merits.

Mega Gengar was a less good example, one I'd rather rescind than bend over to defend. Mega Lucario, there's no need to bend. I believe surely you would agree with me that Mega Lucario would have been just as good with, probably even better with, any of Sturdy, Intimidate, or Speed Boost as he would have with Adaptability. Put another way, "Take away Adaptability and you still have a really great Pokémon."

I staunchly believe the same cannot be said for Greninja. Greninja was thoroughly outclassed by Starmie (Rapid Spin, Thunderbolt) but for Protean. Slightly stronger and slightly faster, yes, but the lack of Rapid Spin made it questionable why you'd run him just to run a combo of moves inferior to the Water/Electric/Ice triad that had seen Starmie reign for five generations. Starmie wasn't dethroned by Greninja. Starmie was dethroned by Protean. Protean Greninja made running Starmie the worse choice. Banning (Protean, because like hell it was really the entire species) Greninja meant the disgraced Starmie could return to his old OU haunt.

If Starmie were to be given Protean tomorrow, Smogon would have him banned by next Sunday. It was never about Greninja. It is absolutely all about Protean.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:57 PM   #11
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Quick preface that all my comments are about Smogon Singles.

So I'm going to argue that Greninja will still be useful as Ash-Greninja, pretty much regardless of what stat boosts it gets. The key reason for this is that it's not the same thing as the Greninja with Protean- if Smogon keeps it banned or rebans it sometime through the gen, it will be the only Greninja allowable in OU. If Protean Gren stays the course of SMOU, then it will be the only Greninja allowable in lower tiers. For these purposes I'll be assuming the former is the case.

So, with Protean Greninja banished to Ubers and thus not an option, Ash-Greninja is still an undeniably solid mon in its own right. Looking at base Greninja, even without Protean, it hits a VERY important speed tier of 122, which would make it faster than OU's fastest non-Mega threats such as Alakazam and Tornadus-Therian. It gets lots of useful support in Spikes/U-Turn/Taunt/Haze/Toxic Spikes, and the switches it can force allows it to set up Spikes for free frequently.

While its ungodly offensive capabilities certainly tank, they aren't even bad in their own right. It's got loads of useful coverage for taking out certain threats (Low Kick, Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, U-Turn, and Rock Slide are its useful offensive moves) and while its power isnt as nuts as it used to be, it's plenty to be useful. Slowbro, Starmie, Jirachi all have less than Greninja in their primary offensive stat, and Mixed behemoths such as Tyranitar and Garchomp have less in their secondary offensive stat than Greninja has in its own.

Keep in mind, this is all Torrent Greninja, completely disregarding any potential buffs in stats or signature moves Ash-Greninja could get. I could very easily see it in OU when Protean Gren is in ubers, and in any other case it would at the very least be UU in my mind.
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Old 10-06-2016, 08:01 PM   #12
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I could very easily see it in OU when Protean Gren is in ubers, and in any other case it would at the very least be UU in my mind.
Oh yeah definitely, I was mostly arguing the fact that Ash-Greninja isn't going to result in being superior to Protean Greninja rather than that Ash-Greninja isn't going to be used at all. I could definitely see it being something tried out in OU at the very least, it just comes down to what it gains.
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Old 10-06-2016, 11:07 PM   #13
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Talon, I would agree with your statement at the end of your post if not for the fact that Torrent Greninja is still Ubers, when we KNOW Smogon is capable of banning certain abilities instead of just the mon (and, in gourgeist's case, discriminating between forms in doing so). Blaze Blaziken suffers this too (really, Smogon? The fuck is up there?), when the only ability anyone in their right mind would take is Speed Boost, which was the actually problematic one. In much the same vein, no one ever took Torrent Greninja because "boost water moves in a pinch" was so hilariously inferior to "literally always have STAB" that "torrent or protean" wasn't even a serious question. While Protean in itself does not make a god out of just anyone (it's not going to help the likes of several PU denizens like Electrode or Swoobat, I'll tell ya that), it does become exceedingly dangerous on certain mon if you don't know how to play around their having it (Multiscale Yache Dragonite is still a wonderful check from full when equipped with Iron Head). So while Protean is the more noticeable issue...Why sweep Torrent Greninja up with it, if it's, as you say, entirely outclassed by Starmie? Either the ban council just didn't feel like exerting the effort for a complex, or they just wanted the frog itself gone as much as they wanted fire chicken out.
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Old 10-08-2016, 01:13 AM   #14
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Did anyone do the calculus on how much Greninja's SpA would have to increase in order to equal the STAB granted from Protean?

Cause I mean, in such a case if SpA and Spd were the only stats boosted, and they got huge boosts, Ash-Greninja remains even more broken just because of the higher speed tier.
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Old 10-08-2016, 01:40 AM   #15
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Did anyone do the calculus on how much Greninja's SpA would have to increase in order to equal the STAB granted from Protean?

Cause I mean, in such a case if SpA and Spd were the only stats boosted, and they got huge boosts, Ash-Greninja remains even more broken just because of the higher speed tier.
Since STAB confers a 1.5x modifier to attack damage, in order for Ash-Greninja's Ice Beam to do as much damage as Protean Greninja's you would be talking a colossal base SpAtk stat. I don't think it'll happen.

... But for humor's sake, let's do the math!



((((2 x 103 + 31 + (252/4)) * 100) / 100) + 5) * 1 = 305

I plugged in Greninja's base SpAtk stat of 103 just to confirm that we're doing the math right here. And we are -- for Greninja's max SpAtk (assuming a Timid nature, 252 EVs in SpAtk, and a 31 IV in Speed) is indeed 305.

Alright. Cool. So ... we take this 305, and we multiply it by 1.5 to account for the STAB difference.

305 * 1.5 = 452.5

Alright. And now we take this 452.5 ... and we stick it on the other end of the equation, and solve for the new base stat!

((((2 x X + 31 + (252/4)) * 100) / 100) + 5) * 1 = 452.5

2 x X + 31 + (252/4) = 447.5

X = 176.75, which rounds up to 177

While a base stat of 177 would not be the highest we've ever seen, it would certainly be one of the highest. Some comparisons:
  • Mega Gengar's SpAtk: 170
  • Mega Alakazam's SpAtk: 175
  • Mega Mewtwo Y's SpAtk: 194
Keep in mind that this would not only mean that Ash-Greninja hits as hard with Ice Beam or Extrasensory as Protean Greninja does ... it would also mean that his Water-type and Dark-type attacks hit 1.5 times harder than normal too. That's something that even the ordinary Greninja doesn't get to enjoy. If this hypothetical Ash-Greninja were to use Hydro Pump or Dark Pulse, he'd hit like a freight truck compared with regular Greninja. And regular (Protean) Greninja's Hydro Pump is still stronger than his Ice Beam or any of his other attacks!

I'd like to point out, though, that if the anime is any indication, then we should be expecting Ash-Greninja to receive a buff to Attack before expecting one to Special Attack. After all, Ash's Greninja's moveset is Cut / Aerial Ace / Water Shuriken / Double Team. None of these moves are special moves. Three of these moves are physical moves.
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Old 10-08-2016, 02:37 AM   #16
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So we're looking at a 90-100 point stat increase.

Mega Sceptile looks like the closest comp, getting its biggest boosts in Attack and Speed. Sceptile also starts with 530 total points, the same as Greninja. Also, there was a famous battle between Ash-Greninja and Mega Sceptile in the anime.

I think the attack boost would have to be very, very substantial. Like 172 substantial. That's the only way possible I can think of a Water Shuriken overcoming a x4 resistance to Water.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:05 AM   #17
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>While Protean in itself does not make a god out of just anyone

Pour one out for Kecleon.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:04 AM   #18
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Protean Kecleon can actually be pretty annoying in the right hands. It gets Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch- the ability to change between being Ghost-type and Dark-type before the opponent can attack, you really have the potential to screw with people. At least in my experience, anyway.
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:49 AM   #19
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It wouldn't be the first time a Pokemon got such big stat boosts (looking at you Mega Pidgeot and your 65 base Sp.Atk boost), but I sort of doubt it.
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:54 PM   #20
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I don't care so long as it never sees the light of day in ASB.
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:15 PM   #21
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The eShop has crashed, brought to a grinding halt by what I can only presume is the overwhelming demand for the Sun & Moon demo. I didn't even see it on there (on the North America eShop), so I have to wonder just how bad it's gonna be tomorrow morning when all the North American kids wake up. -.-
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:54 PM   #22
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Ash-Greninja Spoilers below, from the demo and related stuffs:

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Ash Greninja is confirmed to get stat boosts. +50 Attack, +50 Sp.Attack, +10 Speed. This would put it at, iirc, 144 Attack, 153 Sp.Atk, 132 Speed.

Battle Bond is confirmed for boosting Water Shuriken's power, but its not known by how much. Water Shuriken is also confirmed to have been changed into a special move.

Looks like Gamefreak actually wants Ash-Greninja used because they really tried to compensate it for losing Protean. As of right now, Ash Greninja hits harder when you need it to use Water and Dark moves but Greninja's coverage (especially Gunk Shot) hits harder.
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:57 PM   #23
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Response to Emi's spoilery post below, which by extension constitutes demo spoilers as well.

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What I'm wondering is if it really is locked into being Hardy, because if they really want us to use it, I would think they wouldn't lock it into a neutral nature. Did not expect Water Shuriken to turn Special, though.
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:00 AM   #24
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Talking about Ash-Greninja in this thread as it pertains to the demo is fine, like Emi and MM's posts above are literally just about stats (which we now have info on), which is fine. As long as you don't spoil anything Sun/Moon related and keep it to Ash-Greninja, you're cool, just spoiler tag your post just to be safe.

Basically, keep all Sun/Moon demo spoilers not related to Ash-Greninja in the Sun/Moon thread

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
The eShop has crashed, brought to a grinding halt by what I can only presume is the overwhelming demand for the Sun & Moon demo. I didn't even see it on there (on the North America eShop), so I have to wonder just how bad it's gonna be tomorrow morning when all the North American kids wake up. -.-
Looks like the demo isn't coming our side until 10 AM, all the kids will be at school (if they aren't on Fall break). Meanwhile I'm going to be playing it at work

Last edited by deoxys; 10-18-2016 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:09 AM   #25
Talon87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Ash-Greninja Spoilers below, from the demo and related stuffs:

Spoiler: show
Ash Greninja is confirmed to get stat boosts. +50 Attack, +50 Sp.Attack, +10 Speed. This would put it at, iirc, 144 Attack, 153 Sp.Atk, 132 Speed.

Battle Bond is confirmed for boosting Water Shuriken's power, but its not known by how much. Water Shuriken is also confirmed to have been changed into a special move.

Looks like Gamefreak actually wants Ash-Greninja used because they really tried to compensate it for losing Protean. As of right now, Ash Greninja hits harder when you need it to use Water and Dark moves but Greninja's coverage (especially Gunk Shot) hits harder.
Response:

Spoiler: show
The stat boosts are appear to be inadequate. As we discussed previously, a base of 177 or higher was required to make Ash-Greninja's non-STAB special moves hit as hard as Protean Greninja's omni-STAB special moves. Moves like Ice Beam and Extrasensory. The Ash-Greninja, with a base SpAtk of "only" 153 (still colossal), simply doesn't hit as hard with Ice Beam or the others as does Protean Greninja.

I acknowledge that his Water and Dark-type attacks obviously hit harder. That's plain as day to see. Still, though: even they fall short of the freebie Choice Specs boost that a base of 177 would have afforded. A shame.

However ... I'm pleased and intrigued by the news on Water Shuriken's damage boost. Without something like Skill Link to ensure that it strikes the full five times, it might still not be enough to outmuscle Hydro Pump's place on the set. But I dunno ... Hydro Pump's gotten weaker (110) and is as horridly inaccurate as ever (80%), so like ... Water Shuriken might start looking pretty good right about now, so long as the damage boost isn't +5 base power or something similarly pathetic.

Mixed feelings on its retyping to Special though. On the one hand, it doesn't fit the flavor of the move at all. (It's a shuriken, for pete's sake. You guys had it right the first time. As right as you have Razor Leaf, Ice Shard, and other physical elemental projectiles.) On the other hand, I personally vastly prefer Special Greninja to Physical Greninja, so for me this is welcome news since it means Shuriken can overwrite any of Hydro Pump, Surf, or Scald.

As of right now, I think I will stick with Protean Greninja. Omni-STAB is just so, so incredibly sweet. Not to mention the defensive merits too. (E.g. changing from Ice to Dark right as a Psychic-type attack heads your way.) But Ash-Greninja sounds like a fun souvenir to take off the shelf from time to time and to have fun with. Do I think it'll make it on to Gen 8? No. This is probably the next in a long line of left-behinds, like the Spiky-Eared Pichu or the Cosplay Pikachu. But that's okay. So long as it's there for kids to have fun with here and now while they still give two shits about Ash-Greninja, it's cool of Game Freak to include it.
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