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Old 03-24-2007, 08:19 PM   #1
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Borat.

I just saw this movie, since my Dad & sister have wanted to watch it for a long time and it's got high reviews. However, I will say:

AVOID THIS MOVIE AT ALL COSTS.

...

It sucks. Badly. It's not about not being politically correct, it's crude, rude, and just plain nasty. I don't know about the show but it's probably funnier than this trash.
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Old 03-25-2007, 03:29 AM   #2
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Re: Borat.

This is a bit late for most people, really.
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Old 03-25-2007, 03:36 AM   #3
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Re: Borat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Fan
This is a bit late for most people, really.
Given the overwhelming amount of positive reviews for this show, any dissent at any time is a necessity.
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:19 AM   #4
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Re: Borat.

Good point.

Yeah, I saw it. I didn't mind. I laughed the most I had in a really long time. So, you know, whatever.
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Old 03-25-2007, 08:40 AM   #5
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Re: Borat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Fan
This is a bit late for most people, really.
Not for me. And I will watch it tonight. Seem the show, and clips of te movie. It seems great, however, if it really is that way, I've yet to discover.
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Old 03-25-2007, 09:12 AM   #6
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Re: Borat.

This thread is wrong.

That is all. :P
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Old 03-25-2007, 09:21 AM   #7
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Re: Borat.

The movie seems to promote the idea of "racism is funny!" I'm basing this off of the commercials and previews for the movie, as well as on LittleKuriboh's Shadi character in his YGO:TAS movies. I mean, some people have no trouble laughing at lines like "This little Jew boy must be hiding his devil horns underneath that hair," but for me, it's pretty disheartening that people think for even one second that it's okay to take disgusting stereotypes about people (e.g. "All Arabs hate Jews and form conspiracy theories against them left and right") and try to turn it into light-hearted comedy.

That stated, if you interpret the video another way, it suddenly (can) become much much better: that rather than portraying people from Kazakhstan as backwards for our entertainment, the comedian is actually trying to say, "Fucking Americans, this is how you guys view and treat foreigners. And they're aware of it. So I'm going to satirize that aspect of your society by making a movie in which 'the very portrait of Middle Eastern foreigners' you're always imagining actually comes to life in the form of Borat." (Yes, I know, Kazakhstan is not Middle Eastern; but you get my point.)

I'd like to think that the comedian was that smart and noble, and is trying to not make fun of Kazakhstanis (and other 3rd world peoples from around the world) but is actually making fun of Americans (their media and the individuals themselves) for believing in stereotypes about foreigners which the ridiculous Borat character represents.
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Old 03-25-2007, 09:26 AM   #8
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Re: Borat.

Right, to counter the racism thing.

Sacha Baron Cohen, the guy who IS Borat, is actually a...Jew! Yes, it's still racist, but since it's somebody making fun of their own religion and culture, it's not really as bad.

Like Chris Rock, when he makes fun of black poeple. :O
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Old 03-25-2007, 10:16 AM   #9
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Re: Borat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylar
Sacha Baron Cohen, the guy who IS Borat, is actually a...Jew! Yes, it's still racist, but since it's somebody making fun of their own religion and culture, it's not really as bad.

Like Chris Rock, when he makes fun of black poeple. :O
I respectfully disagree with Mel Brooks, Jerry Seinfeld, and every black comedian since the 1970s. Why?

Because, when a black man comes up and says to me "EQUAL RIGHTS, HO! " and then says to me "I get to make fun of black people, but you don't! " I want to tell him to fuck off. When a Jew comes along and says, "We were oppressed during the Holocaust! " but then I see him making jokes about the Holocaust (and don't give me that "coping mechanism" crap; he's not the one who went through it and nearly died!), then I know that he doesn't really give a shit about the dark gravity of the Holocaust and he's just using people's emotionality over the event to generate kneejerk responses. Comedy at its worst.

I am a huge believer in "no discrimating based on skin color, race, gender, etc." So what really pisses me off is ...
- racism
- comedians who count on people's discomfort with racism to generate laughs (i.e. "let's make the scary man go away by laughing at him")
- people who say, "I demand equal rights, but I also demand special treatment." (THE FUCK!?!?!?!?)

If anything, the guy who plays Borat (if he really is Jewish) is the worst kind of human being -- the kind who sells out his own people for personal gain. The movie Borat is not enjoyed by most people on the satirical, brainy level I'd HOPE to enjoy it as. Most people I've run into who enjoyed Borat are "closet anti-Arabs" who distrust Arabs and harbor anti-Arab sentiment and find Borat to be a great chance to "laugh at somebody even more racist than me." That seems to be the case. Because then what people do is, they say, "Wow, look at this over-the-top Arab dude saying horrible things about Jews. Hahaha, what a raghead. " And that's where I say Slow the fuck down, asswipe. What did you just say? "Raghead"? Do you realize ......... in your attempt to "laugh at the bad guys who laugh at Jews," you became the very bad guy who laughs at Arabs?

The solution to anti-Semitism is not to foster anti-Arab sentiment instead; and Jews like the guy who plays Borat (who seem to think that, based on what I've heard about this movie) really need a swift kick to the crotch. They're insult to all of my Jewish friends and they're an insult to what humanity has worked so hard to achieve over the past 100 years.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:07 PM   #10
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Re: Borat.

I wanted to add this earlier (but signed off and went grocery shopping) ...

Let's say you're right, Joe. Let's say you're right that "a comedian should be allowed to make fun of his own people." I'd still say that the guy who plays Borat is an asshole with an agenda, then. Why? Because he's not a Jew making fun of Jews. He's a Jew making fun of Arabs who all supposedly hate Jews. If you were right, then it would be cool if an Arab comedian [size=-2:fff4c](or other Middle Easterner ... I still don't know why the fuck he chose Kazakhstan, they have no anti-Semitic sentiment afaik)[/size:fff4c] did it. But since Borat (the fake man) is supposed to be a Jew-hating "Arab", and since the guy who plays Borat is a Jew ... it's actually the OPPOSITE of the comedy you condone. It's more like these examples:

- a white guy dressing up as a black guy who hates the Po-Leese
- a black guy dressing up as a white guy who says "The only good n*g**r is a dead n*g**r"
- an Asian guy dressing up as a black guy who says "The only thing I love more than hash is White Castle!"
- a black guy dressing up as an Asian guy saying "Me make you Supah Fwai Wai!" [trans. "I'll make you Super Fried Rice"]

And this sort of comedy does exist in the world. The Wayan Brothers' film White Chicks is (yet another example in the long, long history of) comedies made by black people for black people. But in this particular film, they pretend to be "white chicks" and bust out every stereotype black people have about white people -- including the stereotypes they believe white people have about black people! As for the "Fwai Wai" bit, I saw this recently on a retarded YouTube video where "Jose Conseco" plays the Red Power Ranger.

That's the problem with films like Borat, White Chicks, and the Fwai Wai MMPR video -- the persecuted race (e.g. Jew) decides that he knows what all Arabs think about him and decides that he'll elicit some laughs by pretending to be this horribly over-the-top racist Arab. It's the sort of offensive thing that, if I were an Arab, I'd probably say, "Well fuck, son! Looks like you've already made up your mind about me! So I guess I may as well prove you right! :x :P " What the fuck incentive do people have to not be racist if other people are spreading lies to the planet that they are all racist? Even if 100% of Arabkind was racist against Jews, there'd be no hope for turning that around so long as movies like Borat existed.

I think I can agree with the Wayan Brothers that racism is a horrible, horrible thing. However, we very much disagree on how to deal with it. They want to shove it under the carpet with a broom labelled "black comedy tour," whereas I'd prefer to confront it head on and throw it into the wastebin labelled "mankind's blunders through the ages."
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:07 PM   #11
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Re: Borat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87
The movie seems to promote the idea of "racism is funny!" I'm basing this off of the commercials and previews for the movie, as well as on LittleKuriboh's Shadi character in his YGO:TAS movies. I mean, some people have no trouble laughing at lines like "This little Jew boy must be hiding his devil horns underneath that hair," but for me, it's pretty disheartening that people think for even one second that it's okay to take disgusting stereotypes about people (e.g. "All Arabs hate Jews and form conspiracy theories against them left and right") and try to turn it into light-hearted comedy.
I think when people I've respected for biased yet reliable reviews (such as Roger Ebert) say, "this is the funniest movie of the year", I think the whole phrase is a substitute for "I approve of this movie since political correctness is retarded!"

When someone claims to spoof his own religions affiliation/racial group, I'm inclined to take that person with a grain of salt since he/she isn't representative of that group and is in fact no different from an outsider making fun of that group. It's one thing when Yakov Smirnoff makes jokes about living under the Soviet Union, since most of his jokes are intelligently funny; there's both a literal absurdily and an eerie undertonal warning about the way of life he's criticizing.

Granted, I'm against the political correctness movement of today because I'm concerned with it going out of control; if Borat did something like that throughout the film, I'm sure I would have liked the movie.

Yet, he only did that a couple of times; one of the funniest moments in the film was when he was at a rodeo and was making fun of the bigots in the crowd. But contrast that to when he says he shags his sister and hates his gigantic wife (such that he cries/cheers with joy when she dies violently) the movie is outright horrid.

Remember that segment in Green Green where the Baka Trio are naked in that stockroom and end up smothering one another? There's a segment like that in Borat, except there isn't any humour in it at all. It's just nasty, nasty, nasty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87
That stated, if you interpret the video another way, it suddenly (can) become much much better: that rather than portraying people from Kazakhstan as backwards for our entertainment, the comedian is actually trying to say, "Fucking Americans, this is how you guys view and treat foreigners. And they're aware of it. So I'm going to satirize that aspect of your society by making a movie in which 'the very portrait of Middle Eastern foreigners' you're always imagining actually comes to life in the form of Borat." (Yes, I know, Kazakhstan is not Middle Eastern; but you get my point.)
I'm not sure if you've seen the movie or not, but that way of thinking (there's an undertone to all of this) is accurate; Borat is trying to promot the idea that America is a more disgusting version fo Kazakhstan, and that he himself, as terrible as he is, is NOTHING in comparison. At least, that's what I was expecting the movie to explain as I watched it; no, instead, it looked like Borat was just some random arsehole picking on people and permanently ruining their lives. Most of the jokes are stock stuff anyway from 1980's comedians, they're just portrayed in a more obtrusive matter.

There are few, if ANY undertonal themes to this show; most of them are immaginary or aren't focused on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87
I'd like to think that the comedian was that smart and noble, and is trying to not make fun of Kazakhstanis (and other 3rd world peoples from around the world) but is actually making fun of Americans (their media and the individuals themselves) for believing in stereotypes about foreigners which the ridiculous Borat character represents.
That's what I was expecting the movie to be. But when Borat says, "this is my sister. She is fourth best prostitute in Kazhakstan. I fudge her every night" and people online I've talked to say, "that's one of the funniest lines in the movie", I knew I was in for a bad time. Our neighbor phoned us and gave a warning, "it's really adult" and boy she was right! Heck, there's even segment where Borat is talking to this joke-coach and he pulls off that stupid "sister = prostitute" line, and the coach goes "That's not funny in America".

Now, if the JOKE GUY knew that, why couldn't the insipid fools who praise this movie recognize it?!
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Old 03-26-2007, 06:32 AM   #12
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Re: Borat.

I really doubt the guy was thinking so much about Arabs Talon.

Eh, a lot of stuff was just general horribleness, but not to anything specific. It is so over the top you can't really say any country is like that. It isn't stereotyping if there isn't even a grain of truth to it or even popularly believed.
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Old 03-26-2007, 06:43 AM   #13
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Re: Borat.

I thought it was funny as hell.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:16 PM   #14
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Re: Borat.

Talon, you've just basically shown how ignorant some Americans can be, since people from Kazakhstan aren't considered Arabs, and Cohen isn't even trying to portray an Arab. xfd

Also, you can't say a grown man saying "I would very much like to make romance explosion on her chest." isn't funny. xD Me and a group of mates went to see it, and we were laughing the whole way through.

Well, except for the naked hotel fight. Once they get out the room it's hilarious, but when they're in there, it's just sick. O.O
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Old 03-26-2007, 01:27 PM   #15
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Re: Borat.

ok i just need to prefice this that i only read talon's first post and skipped the rest because its apparent that he has no taste in humor and my eyes just wander when i see that wall of text

as for the movie... i mean it was highly overrated, i think the character of borat was funnier in the HBO series but even that was a hit or miss...

the movie itself was "ok" at best but it had its moments, like when borat was staying at the bed and breakfast owned by that jewish couple and when two cockoroaches crawled into the room he was convinced that they has shapeshifted and the only way to escape death was to throw money at them and run for it.
thats the only real funny part i can remember other than the part with the naked fighting and they run into the elevator to the shocked people as they pretended nothing was happening. but ehhh

as for racism not being funny is utterly rediculous some of todays better known comic's such as dave chapelle and carlos mencia do it all the time "but GR those comics are just fads and carlos mencia is a retarded joke thief" granted but even legends in comedy use it such as RICHARD FUCKING PRYOR and mel brooks in such classis as blazing saddles!
granted once again that some people are hacks and abuse racist comedy, but you cant group the greats with the shit

but from i know of talon he only likes "wholesome" comedy of tv sitcoms, which is all well and good, but please dont think that is the only type of comedy out there
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Old 03-26-2007, 05:43 PM   #16
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Re: Borat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylar
Talon, you've just basically shown how ignorant some Americans can be, since people from Kazakhstan aren't considered Arabs, and Cohen isn't even trying to portray an Arab. xfd
Stick the xfd up your butt if you're not going to read my entire posts. With love.
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Old 03-26-2007, 08:22 PM   #17
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Re: Borat.

I haven't see it. I really don't mind PC-talk, honestly, let's just call it what it is, which is being polite to non-majority members (racial minorities, ethnic minorities, sexual minorities). A little manners never killed anyone, but whatever, apparently because someone renamed it "PC" it's a bad thing.
I think when people make fun of their own race, whether it should be considered offensive or not should be dependent on their target audience. People who make fun of their race to their own people are one thing, there it's just obviously just self-depreciating humor, as they likely have similar attitudes toward racism; but when it's someone making fun of their own race to another group, that's bad.
I will definitely not see this movie now, as I have no desire to watch naked men fight, if I did, I'd watch 300 (while they aren't technically nude, they really do show a lot of skin) before Borat.
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:06 PM   #18
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Re: Borat.

wow, kasumi your avatar really makes me dizzy

the naked fight was indeed nasty, the fat one didnt even need a cencor bar ::shivers::
but the racism in borat was so out there that the whole joke is how stupid borat is, i mean its like family guy's "wish apon a weinstien" and borat is peter

300 is an amazing movie, but then again i think its just one of those guy movies, sin city was beloved by many men and hated by women, so whatever. though partial nudity is the least of the reasons why that is
im not gay but jesus, that leonidis .....

and as for PC being a bad thing, it really is, it cencors free speech and creates a double standard. i mean a comic can't do a retard impersonation without being crucified meanwhile tom hanks does it on screen for three hours and hes praised, they are both concidered art but theres a double standard and its because of this PC bullshit
its even gotten to the point where people want to ban the word nigger. even tough again theres that double standard (comedy central is a prime example) that only if your black your allowed to say it, but thats neither here nor there. people dont seem to understand that everyone has the right to offend other people, there are concequences to it, for example if i went outside and shouted "nigger" chances are i will be swallowing my teeth, but to ban a word because its unpopular speech is a rather scary trend because unpopular speech should be the most protected. theres a reason why its the first amendment.


watching tv, lost my train of though. if anything ill come back to this
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:29 PM   #19
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Re: Borat.

Gr, then you have no problem with PC as it is now, right? I mean, it's not illegal to say anything offensive, you have all the right in the world to. But it is socially unacceptable, which is something that's not controlled by laws. I've read the most liberal of liberal blogs, and none of them want to actually make it illegal to use non-PC language. So, you guys can have your Borat and your obscene comedians, and the rest of us can ignore and/or condemn such talk. Everyone wins, and everyone can say what they want to.
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:53 PM   #20
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Re: Borat.

see i wish the world is as nice as you paint it but truth be told its because of these minority PC groups sending thier few emails that make companies create policies that restrict language which is ultimatly the same as banning the word all because 1) people cant "ignore" offensive speech and turn the dial and 2) the wierd statistic that one email equals like 300000 viewers/listeners. and this minority of people ruin entertainment for the majority that may like the show in question.

there are a bunch of examples of this but i think ill use the superbowl commercials as an example with the snikers commercials and the other company that it doesnt come to mind

some of the email complaints are as follows, i shit you not, you can look this up
this is a paraphrasing of course
"i was offended by the homosexual display during your commercial, my two boys were watching television with us, my one son who could have become a great football player may now be gay because of your commercial and i am seriously concidering taking him to a doctor to check for hiv"

of course snickers folded and took the commercial off the air, while the other company stuck with its commercial and nothing happened to them. but you see how the current pc commercial removed a commercial because of its "homosexual" nature or "homophobic" depending on your views, even though it was in jest and meant no harm to anyone

the other company (just so you dont think im making it up) is some car company where a robot loses its job and commits suicide

so yea, even the current state of PC is pretty bad in my opinion
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Old 03-26-2007, 10:08 PM   #21
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Re: Borat.

So your problem is the free speech of people who wish to express that they're being offended... You wish they'd just shut up. You're not very "free speech" after all...
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Old 03-26-2007, 10:41 PM   #22
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Re: Borat.

WOAH, do you have the wrong idea, im simply stating that because of the PC culture as it is now is creating this super sensitive culture in which a small minority that expresses their free speech are ruining something that the majority is enjoying just because they cant "ignore" what they've seen as you put it. they have every right to voice thier complaint and im not posting all the blame on the people who complain, its also the fault of people that would remove content just because it offended a few(cause in fact, if the company stood by their content nothing bad would happen to them, that was shown with the season 6? of seinfeld dvd sales being the highest selling season on dvd, and that automotive company commercial), and its the fault of the majority that enjoyed what was removed because it is very unlikely for someone to send an email if they like something and if something has already been removed at that point its too late to bring it back so all they can say is "oh thats gone? that sucks" (not counting family guy and futurama which were brought back because 1) they werent removed due to content 2) they are back because of dvd sales and adult swim)
and its because of this PC culture that creates this knee jerk reaction that cencors content. and they're countless people in the media that have been fired and or canceled because of this
and the things you were able to say on tv and radio no more than a few years ago would now get you fired and great shows such as "all in the family" and "the honeymooners" could NEVER be created in todays world. all because of the whole janet jackson debacle which set the ball rolling to restrict media and further throwing us into political correctness (please note that im not saying it started with jackson it just got horribly worse)


so i dont have a problem with the "free speech of people who wish to express that they're being offended." the whole system of how things work because of political correctness is whats the problem.
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Old 03-26-2007, 11:28 PM   #23
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Re: Borat.

Quote:
Your right to swing your fist about ends at my face.
Whether you agree with this saying or not probably indicates whether you would ultimately side with "freedom of expression" or "the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" if forced to choose between the two. And indeed, they are not mutually inclusive of one another in all situations. As a (very real) example:
Quote:
Mr. Johns is a sadist who derives pleasure from torturing Mrs. McLaughlin. What he does to torture her may seem innocent, but ask Mrs. McLaughlin and it's anything but.

"He calls me every night. He never fails. He calls at random times between 1am and 5am -- so I can't guess when he's going to do it, I suppose. The caller ID never works; I've called the police but they can't track down any of his calls. But I know it's him.

Mrs. McLaughlin was self-admitted to the state mental hospital last June to seek treatment for symptoms indicative of psychosis and insomnia. Her medical bills have totalled to a staggering $537,270. Yet call Mr. Johns and he will express not one ounce of sympathy or remorse.

"I don't see what the trouble is," Mr. Johns told us during an interview two weeks ago. "I mean, it's a free country, right? Freedom of expression, right? All I want to do is call whoever I feel like calling, whenever I feel like calling them. Sure, you may call it 'harassment,' but I don't see it like that. I don't think it's harassment at all. It's simply me exercising my right to use the phone as I please. There are laws against harassment, but there are no laws that say "You may not call Janet McLaughlin between the hours of 1am and 5pm." There are no laws anywhere in this country that tell people who they may not call or when they may not call. People are free to call who they want, when they want. Can you imagine if people went to jail if they accidentally called the wrong number over and over just because of a faulty memory or a slip of the finger? I swear, this country is going to Hell in a handbasket if we begin taking away people's civil liberties. "
Ultimately, that's how I see Gr's argument (at the extreme). Rationally, Gr and I probably both agree that PC in excess and complete lack of respect for individual's fragile happinesses are shitty. But from the sounds of it, Gr would rather (if he HAD to choose) live in an America where his right to shatter your heart superceded your right to live out a happy life. I don't buy into that worldview at all. I'd much rather Gr (and me!) be told we don't have the right to call other people fuckheads if I knew that, by calling somebody a fuckhead, I was going to cause them to kill themselves.

=======================================

That stated, dude, before you reply, realize that I agree that extreme PC is a "babying force" which can result in people being too fucking soft. In other words, extreme PC = pampering. And we all know what happens to children who are pampered and spoiled rotten -- they grow up to become fragile, selfish people. So, indeed, sometimes I guess a kid does need to be called "a loser," "a faggot," or "a nerd" if it means that he's going to learn about his strengths and weaknesses and learn to have confidence in himself while also being aware that he cannot (and does not) please everybody.
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Old 03-27-2007, 07:35 AM   #24
GrJackass
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Re: Borat.

ok, let me address this because you view me of being rather extreme and im not talking about the phone call example either but i suppose it is covered in this post but there is also an issue with context with free speech which i didnt mention before because i assumed its implied. for example, the way i used nigger in a previous post in this thread was not used in neither with anger or hatred in use of an argument which i see no problems with doing so, nor using it within humor. but when used in anger or hatred there in lies the problems and the fine line of your rights, i cant go to a black rights rally and start shouting out "i hate all niggers, they should all die" (just using an example) because it will incite a riot just like shouting fire in a movie theater which should be and is illegal. hell i even understand why the laugh factory (the place where mr richards had his outburst) banned the word nigger from the establishment because he received a lot of bad press and there is a very real danger of having a Molotov cocktail busting through the window in that area

Quote:
But from the sounds of it, Gr would rather (if he HAD to choose) live in an America where his right to shatter your heart superceded your right to live out a happy life.
again a little extreme, there is something called courtesy so just because i had full freedom of my speech doesnt mean im going to run around verbally abusing people
and there are laws that protect people from what here you are describing as harassment

Quote:
I'd much rather Gr (and me!) be told we don't have the right to call other people fuckheads if I knew that, by calling somebody a fuckhead, I was going to cause them to kill themselves.
again your using an extreme example with someone committing suicide just because he was insulted, but then again i also have no sympathy for people who commit suicide
but anyway, that mentality is extremely dangerous, to have the government take away our right to free speech just because its unpopular will create such a horrible trend (im sure you were expecting this one to come out earlier "slippery slope"). and although i do not support the ku klux klan (although using the examples i made in this thread one can make a very convincing argument) i do realize their right to parade and spout out their white supremacy and why its important to protect their freedoms even if its unpopular.
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Old 03-27-2007, 08:28 AM   #25
Kasumi Violet
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Re: Borat.

The problem, in your opinion, seems to be that a lot of people find things offensive, even things that aren't insults to them directly. Nobody can control that but the people themselves. Therefore, because our culture seems defacto PC you can't un-PC it just by bitching about it being PC, you'd have to infringe on someone's right to react as they normally would. Just because you think making fun of minority groups is funny, and apparently an art form, that should triumph over people's right to be offended if they see something they believe is offensive doesn't mean that most people feel that way and in a democracy, majority rules.
I put up with people saying gay people are sinful and can and should change in certain venues. I've heard far too many people suggest that women shouldn't have the right to vote. I put up with the actually anti-homosexual Snickers ad being called something that makes kids gay (which is VERY un-PC, therefore a bad example of PC-ness FYI). And I even put up with people constructing strawmen of what PC and feminism really are (mostly because I like to educate people). Because I understand well that life isn't about what makes me instantly happy, and you don't find happiness just by having every one of your whims catered to. Just as you would do well to understand that your life is not really seriously affected by Comedy Central bleeping the n-word, and that politically correct speech isn't a boogey man, and that it's not an infringement on any of your real rights.
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