UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-03-2017, 11:20 PM   #3901
Snorby
Snackin'
 
Snorby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,701
Just the "Trump's Going to Jail" thread.
__________________

Click on Fawful for my ASB squad summary. Other links coming soon.
Snorby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2017, 08:27 AM   #3902
deoxys
こばやし だいすき~
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 私の尾を食べてください OwO
Posts: 6,482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Is this the "I'm Going to Hell" thread?
What?
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2017, 02:11 PM   #3903
deoxys
こばやし だいすき~
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 私の尾を食べてください OwO
Posts: 6,482
http://www.startribune.com/blast-inv...r/438715693/#1
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 01:37 AM   #3904
Jerichi
本✚能
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,499
Thank god no one was hurt but like... can we stop acting like Muslims are true terrorist threat in the US?
__________________


気紛れを 許して 今更なんて思わずに急かしてよ
もっと中迄入って あたしの衝動を 突き動かしてよ

asbwffb

[jerichi]
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 06:56 AM   #3905
Connor
Who Knows?
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,984
I don't think it's fair to say Muslims offer no terrorist threat in the US because one of the major issues when discussing Jihadi terrorism is that these people do it for an ideological reason which directly relates to their faith. It's a twisted version of that faith, but it's faith nonetheless. Look at France for example - they suffered a spate of Islamist terrorist attacks and frankly I feel like their systems of defence against such a threat are probably stronger than those of America.

However I agree that US media wildly swings the ballpark directly towards Islamist terrorism while ignoring the fact that most terrorist attacks actually perpetrated within the US are from other groups. The issue is by and large, as I said, that the media will only report the Islamist attacks, which tend to be "larger" in terms of casualties and fatalities (from what I am aware of), and so remain within the public consciousness longer. It's a very skewed narrative which is demonstrably false, but it's what resonates with the populace (and is one of the feeders for America's nationalist identity at the moment).
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 01:22 PM   #3906
Snorby
Snackin'
 
Snorby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,701
Decided to look into terrorist attacks since 9/11. Found some pretty interesting stats.

Quote:
Attacks with casualities By Muslims: 17
Attacks with casualities By Non-Muslims: 32
Deaths By Muslims: 89
Deaths By Non-Muslims: 86
Injuries By Muslims: 465
Injuries By Non-Muslims: 109
Seems like it, more or less, backs up the media narrative that Islamic terrorism is a far more major problem than anything else, right? I mean, while the majority of attacks aren't perpetrated by Muslims, the overwhelming majority of injuries and a slight majority of deaths were caused by Muslim attacks.

But then you realize that the two largest attacks since 9/11, the Boston Marathon Bombing and the Pulse Nightclub Shooting, make up a whopping 61% of all deaths due to Islamic terrorism and an even more staggering 71% of all injuries.

Take those two outliers out of the statistics, and you get this:

Quote:
Since 9/11 (Excluding Boston Massacre and Pulse Night Club)
Attacks with casualities By Muslims: 15
Attacks with casualities By Non-Muslims: 32
Deaths By Muslims: 35
Deaths By Non-Muslims: 86
Injuries By Muslims: 132
Injuries By Non-Muslims: 109
Which... honestly doesn't really back up the media narrative at all. For reference, no other attack, perpetrated by Muslims or Non-Muslims, was as significant an outlier as those two. the next closest had 17 causalities, compared to Pulse's 102 and the Boston Marathon's 285, so I'm not just cherry-picking the data by excluding those two, they're decided outliers.

So while it's definitely true that Islamic terrorism poses a threat, it hardly poses a more or even equally significant threat compared to terrorism from other sources, at least in the US.

So yeah what I found basically backs up what Connor has said, perhaps barring what he said about Islamic attacks being larger in scale, because outside of those two gigantic outliers the scale is pretty comparable.
__________________

Click on Fawful for my ASB squad summary. Other links coming soon.
Snorby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 03:46 PM   #3907
Shuckle
Mage of Mind
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Land of Thought and Melody
Posts: 3,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor View Post
I don't think it's fair to say Muslims offer no terrorist threat in the US because one of the major issues when discussing Jihadi terrorism is that these people do it for an ideological reason which directly relates to their faith. It's a twisted version of that faith, but it's faith nonetheless. Look at France for example - they suffered a spate of Islamist terrorist attacks and frankly I feel like their systems of defence against such a threat are probably stronger than those of America.
Only 5% of Islamic extremists have even a rudimentary understanding of the Qur'an (a figure I know to be true but sadly cannot source at the moment). It's almost a disservice to call them "Islamic" extremists. Nearly all of what they do is in direct defiance of everything the religion stands for.

Don't mistake jihadi terrorism for religion. It's gang violence and lynch mobs. The vast majority of ISIS does not care about Islam and never will. It's about having a cause. It's about fighting and dying for "your" faith. It's about striking back against moral decay and protecting Your People from being hurt by the evil Enemy.

It is not a twisted version of that faith, it is direct ignorance of that faith, propped up by a select few verses that drum up enthusiasm and fervor for the Cause. Don't let ISIS trick you into believing it is anything but a group of power hungry, manipulative fucks who get off on convincing impressionable teenagers to come to Saudi Arabia with their parents' money to fight for Allah.
__________________

Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 03:52 PM   #3908
Son_of_Shadows
Ducks gonna duck
 
Son_of_Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,794
Yeah I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Shuckle. Most of ISIS' victims are Muslim after all, you just don't hear about it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Why are you always a pretty princess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son_of_Shadows View Post
Because I look damn good in a dress.
Fizzy Bubbles Team
PASBL
Wild Future
Son_of_Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 11:19 AM   #3909
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 6,962
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
>Snorby

It's also worth noting the double standards in what gets labelled a terrorist attack and what doesn't. A Muslim drives a van into a group of people or guns them down it gets called terrorism immediately. A white guy publishes some twisted idealogical manifesto and does it, it's all "lone wolf attack" and "mental health problems".

Media and law enforcement generally only cracks out the T word if it's done by someone of a demographic with an existing terrorist narrative, even if it's the exact same crime with the exact same kind of motivation.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 11:34 AM   #3910
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,239
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
I usually don't see the written word designated as terrorism.

But active shooter events, I do see labeled as "acts of terrorism" depending on what outlet is reporting them, and regardless of whether the perp is white or not. I don't know if Fox News labeled the Boston Marathon bombing terrorism, but all the other outlets certainly did.

Similarly, cyberterrorism usually isn't "terrorism" per se, and not in the same way that people downplay vehicle-related second degree murder as "road rage".

Terrorism usually has a kind of violent, ad hoc/improvised nature to it.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 04:48 PM   #3911
Shuckle
Mage of Mind
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Land of Thought and Melody
Posts: 3,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
>Snorby

It's also worth noting the double standards in what gets labelled a terrorist attack and what doesn't. A Muslim drives a van into a group of people or guns them down it gets called terrorism immediately. A white guy publishes some twisted idealogical manifesto and does it, it's all "lone wolf attack" and "mental health problems".

Media and law enforcement generally only cracks out the T word if it's done by someone of a demographic with an existing terrorist narrative, even if it's the exact same crime with the exact same kind of motivation.
Idk, the Pulse shooting was described as a lone wolf attack prompted by mental health problems. There was 0 terrorism narrative even though the guy literally was doing it "for allah" and published a twisted ideological manifesto about homosexuality and Islam. I think ISIS even tried to claim responsibility for the attack but nobody believed them. It's even a mass shooting, so it could easily have been MUH TERRORISMS.

Sure, double standards exist, but if we're talking about media lies, you can go a great deal further than "Muslim violence is always terrorism." Not always the case, not even the surface of the (racially motivated) issue.
__________________

Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 10:41 PM   #3912
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,162
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
I thought our Civilization fans would appreciate this. From the Reddit discussion about North Korea's threat to fire toward Guam:
It's like a game of civilization VI. "North Korea has denounced EVERYONE" "The USA has denounced North Korea!" Kim: "Nuclear weapons are the future! How could you not see that?" North Korea hidden agenda: Nukes. "The USA has declared war on North Korea!" Gandhi: "Warmonger!" Catherine: "Warmonger!" Barbarossa: "Warmonger!"
well god knows we stopped going for the science victory with the new administration
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 11:51 PM   #3913
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,239
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by The New York Times
While General McMaster and Mr. Mattis consider North Korea a pre-eminent threat that requires a tough response, Mr. Bannon and others in the nationalist wing argue that it is really just a subset of the administration’s conflict with China and that Mr. Trump should not give more prominence to an unstable rogue operator like Mr. Kim.
How does one arrive at a conclusion like Bannon's? :/

I can understand why the white nationalist, anti-globalist, anti-cosmopolitan Bannon would oppose China, Syria and Saudi Arabia, but that's like saying you should ignore a gun pointed at you because the wielder has no intention of firing.

Would you really take the chance?
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 04:08 AM   #3914
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 6,962
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
Maybe this is just the way British media responds to things. The Pulse shooting was immediately terrorism in UK media, where things like the Charleston church shooting the word was never mentioned. Then again despite our politics being generally left and more socially liberal than yours, our media as a whole is more targeted at the "let's go shoot up some foreign looking people" kind of audience (the UK's most popular single news source was infamously pro-Hitler in the 1930's and hasn't really changed its politics since).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

Last edited by Concept; 08-11-2017 at 04:36 AM.
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 07:12 AM   #3915
Son_of_Shadows
Ducks gonna duck
 
Son_of_Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Maybe this is just the way British media responds to things. The Pulse shooting was immediately terrorism in UK media, where things like the Charleston church shooting the word was never mentioned. Then again despite our politics being generally left and more socially liberal than yours, our media as a whole is more targeted at the "let's go shoot up some foreign looking people" kind of audience (the UK's most popular single news source was infamously pro-Hitler in the 1930's and hasn't really changed its politics since).
Its comment section regularly praises him, which is disturbing. I'd also like to bring up the assassination of Jo Cox MP, which was never stated in the right-wing press to be an act of terrorism (despite the killer's statements of "death to traitors, freedom for Britain") versus the murder of Lee Rigby, a British soldier.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Why are you always a pretty princess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son_of_Shadows View Post
Because I look damn good in a dress.
Fizzy Bubbles Team
PASBL
Wild Future
Son_of_Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 08:06 AM   #3916
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,239
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
I don't usually see shootings classified as terrorism. They're so commonplace in the US (where one is happening every day, somewhere) it just gets lumped under the "active shooter" or "school shooting" label. The whole BLM with police shootings hullabaloo was due in part to how desensitized and indifferent the country felt toward black shootings, because they were so frequent.

Guns here are like bladed weapons in the UK or Japan, and bombs here are like guns in the UK or Japan. There's a sense of shock for US audiences when they see things like the Boston Marathon bombing, because it's difficult to procure explosives in the US. Not impossible, but especially rare compared with automatic or semi-automatic weapons. We literally sold AR-15s at Wal-Mart and you could get the parts to convert it to auto at a pawn shop sporting Vietnam-era memorabilia.

I think to be labeled a terrorist event here, it has to involve bombs. I remember Boston Marathon being called a terrorist attack. Something like the Oklahoma City bombing, I would have to look up, but Wikipeidia reassured me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The Oklahoma City bombing was a domestic terrorist truck bombing on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, United States on April 19, 1995.
9/11 was deeply shocking to the US in many more ways than it was to other countries. Not the least of which is how terrorists could turn airplanes into bombs.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 09:06 AM   #3917
Son_of_Shadows
Ducks gonna duck
 
Son_of_Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,794
Terrorism is a thing that has like 100 academic definitions, it's difficult to pin down that way.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Why are you always a pretty princess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son_of_Shadows View Post
Because I look damn good in a dress.
Fizzy Bubbles Team
PASBL
Wild Future
Son_of_Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 03:01 PM   #3918
Connor
Who Knows?
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,984
Yeah, as much as certain British media outlets are respectable, many more are complete rags, in every sense of the word. Murdoch and Dacre have very obvious agendas and they do very little to prevent them coming through in their papers. Anything they can use to swing a more nationalistic identity among the population they'll jump on like a bitch in heat. Sadly mislabeling of terrorist incident and creating a narrative in which only Islamic terrorism exists is one of the best ways to do that.
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2017, 09:21 AM   #3919
Slash
Poison Jam
 
Slash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Tokyo Underground Sewage Facility
Posts: 6,019
Send a message via Yahoo to Slash Send a message via Skype™ to Slash
A lot of American news media also tends to do that a lot. Not entirely or exclusively, but very often, terrorist attacks from white people tend to be "lone wolves", even when explicitly doing it for an ideology, which leads to the left going a little too insane about gun control, and the right feigning care about mental health, not acting on it, and ignoring it after a week. But when they even "look Muslim", it's usually called out as a terrorist attack and related to Al Queada(sp?)/ISIL/etc, and the narrative pushed is that Islam is bad and a religion of violence and war and leftie cucks just can't admit that Islam is wholly incompatible with western values for reasons not explained.

Radicals, of any religion, are utter shit. Don't blame the whole religion for the actions of a few, and especially, if you're Christian, don't dump on Allah. He's the same god you worship, "Allah" is literally just "God" in Arabic. Arab Christians call him that, too. And especially the Christian right (a)"moral majority". Your religion's teaching are just as vile, horrific, and inhumane as you accuse Islam of being, and, like you, most people in Islam don't believe literally every word at face value and (sorta) only take the more positve teachings to heart. And also a lot of hate, but that's a thing. And it's especially bad here, because I've seen and heard people talk about rounding up and killing Muslims, blaming them for all the problems, and just entirely being literally akin to how the Nazi party was about Jews.

I was going to call Trump "Orange Hitler", but I honestly think that would be a little too harsh on Hitler.
Slash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2017, 12:00 PM   #3920
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,239
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Actually, from a Catholic POV, I've always thought of Islam as generally friendly. The Catholic Church opened its hand to Islam after 9/11, anticipating that Muslims were going to face discrimination in retaliation for it. In my hometown, that relationship has gone on strong for the past 16 years.

"People of the Book" and all that. A lot of the anti-Muslim hate seems to be propagated by Protestants, which hold odd views anyway. Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis are all consistent in that advocating the death penalty while decrying abortion is ideologically dissonant. As political views, those positions are not etched by religion, but socioeconomics. Claiming religious justification for it is insidious and, frankly, sacrilegious.

It's sad that Catholicism deems Islam as heretical, which I've always found a bit curious. Catholicism began with Matthew, it didn't end with that, so I can't see why the Catholic Church can't adopt Muhammad as a prophet and just twist his ideologies so they don't contradict the church doctrine (like denying Jesus' divinity). I think the years of fighting Islam on ethnic grounds burned those bridges, because speaking from an outsider's POV, Muhammad's military victories do seem sponsored by God. It's odd the Catholic Church wouldn't take credit for it even when Muhummad himself is telling them God was responsible for it.

Spoiler: show
Incidentally, I don't find the Jews heretical either. The church is really hard-line about the divinity thing, which is why filoque is the only thing standing between an East-West reunion to the Holy Catholic Church
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 05:17 PM   #3921
phoopes
Double Dragon
 
phoopes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,462
So how about that Trump press conference today? Lol what a shitshow. Even Republicans have got to stop standing by him now... right?
__________________
phoopes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 05:31 PM   #3922
Emi
ACHILLESSSSS
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Agartha
Posts: 11,154
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
We tore down a statue so its our fault a terrorist drove a car into a crowd of counter protestors and killed people.

Got it Trump. Fuck you.
__________________


Quote:
Zelphon - Today at 5:29 AM
If the current political climate has taught me anything
It's that a purge via gay witches may very well be necessary
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 05:33 PM   #3923
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,239
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
I watched the Colbert roast. It's pretty funny.

Trump struggles with denouncing the alt right for some reason. Got me thinking about a certain debate.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 06:52 PM   #3924
Connor
Who Knows?
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,984
I mean, tearing down a statue is a criminal act and shouldn't be endorsed in any way.

However it in no way justifies what happened in Charlottesville. Trump should never have equated them in the way he did and he essentially endorsed racism. That's heavily not okay.
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2017, 08:24 PM   #3925
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 6,962
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
If Trump doesn't continue to pander to the far right as he did in the election campaign, he'll alienate the only support base he has left. Of course he'll avoid denouncing neo-nazi's as much as he possibly can.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 PM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.