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Old 05-21-2010, 01:40 PM   #1
Doppleganger
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Movies & The Matrix.

No tangents this time. No promises about sines or cosines though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
In The Matrix, people were plugged up to a complete sensory VR world. The question is, did they have free will?
I've been thinking about this because of the recent trends in movies. Big budget movies these days are struggling to find new ways to remain fresh and eye-catching. The bland, cliche stories aren't a problem because people will watch them without fail, but CGI has already long since past the point of being able to "wow" people. Nobody lifts an eyebrow at the amazing stuff in almost every big-budget movie because it's so common, hence the need to use the 3D glasses gimmick like for Avatar. It's the logical next step of transforming the medium so people can experience their entertainment to a higher degree. The final step in this evolution would be complete sensory deception, like in The Matrix.

My response:
Spoiler: show
I'd say so. When I think of a Cartesian Evil Genius, which can manipulate everything to the point where nothing is real, free will itself is an illusion, even barring the recognition of self awareness. A CEG can't pervert the truth of "cogito ergo sum" even if it wanted to, but it if didn't want to there would be no way of telling the difference. The CEG remains dominant and can micromanage every thought of the person it's controlling. No free will at all.

The Matrix itself was like a video game, external events like weather could be manipulated by the program(-mer) but they could also be manipulated by human influence (salting clouds), so there wasn't totally unequal control. Agents acted like Gods, enforcing the goals of the machines to maintain order, but otherwise they didn't interfere with human affairs much else they promote disorder. People determined their own fates in the system, so even if the system itself was had an overall direction (macro-management) not under direct human control, individuals still had control over their lives.
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Old 05-21-2010, 02:16 PM   #2
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The people within the Matrix had free will. The machines simply eliminated those whose wills clashed with the machines' goals, that's all. People were still free to choose. The machines allowed people to make decisions which ultimately cost them their lives. Perhaps you could argue that the machines were not able to control free will as evidenced by Neo's taking the pill. Perhaps you could argue that their surveillance methods were imperfect as evidenced by Neo's taking the pill. But I would posit that even if their surveillance had been perfect, even had they spotted Morpheus and Neo in that ramshackle apartment, even had they taken over an old granny's body two doors down and then busted in to kill Morpheus and Neo -- even then, Neo still would have been a person who had freely chosen to show up for this meeting, and Morpheus a person who had freely chosen to hold this meeting.

Free will debates (imo) should not be mixed with reality/illusion debates. The following example displays why:

Martin goes to Subway to get lunch. Unbeknownst to Martin, Steve is a disgruntled employee who was fired just last night from this very Subway. Unbeknownst to Martin, Steve's coworkers do not all yet know this; and Steve was therefore able to wear his uniform to work one last time, to show up for a shift that wasn't his own, to make up some story as to why he was there, and to slip cyanide into the mustard bottle while nobody was looking. Martin orders an Italian on wheat and asks the employee making his sandwich to add lettuce, black olives, red onion, and an extra helping of mustard. Martin sits down with his sandwich, takes a bite, and five minutes later is dead from acute cyanide poisoning.

Did Martin make a conscious, volitional decision to die today? No.
Did Martin make a conscious, volitional decision to do something which unbeknownst to him would ultimately cost him his life? Yes.

The Matrix is the same way. It's irrelevant whether people's choices are viewed from within the Matrix or from without. What's relevant is whether the decision-maker made those decisions of his own free will or not. The outcome of those decisions has no bearing on the free will, nor does the true nature of the thing being decided upon have any bearing on the free will. If I buy a tricycle, bring home the box, and inside is a bomb, I still bought a what-I-believed-to-be-a-tricycle of my own free will. No one made me buy the what-I-didn't-know-was-a-bomb-until-it-was-too-late.
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:37 PM   #3
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No, because the universe as a whole still functions deterministically. Nobody had free will, inside or outside of the matrix.

Even if the universe functioned in a manner that was probabilistic, rather than strictly cause-and-effect, that still doesn't allow any room for free will.

Last edited by Lunar Delta; 05-24-2010 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:42 PM   #4
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The 'Oracle' and the 'Architect' knew what would happen to most of humans, even Neo, till Agent Smith (being the machine with free will) changed the system the machines had going for centuries.

So no free will for those within the Matrix aside from Agent Smith.
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Steel View Post
The 'Oracle' and the 'Architect' knew what would happen to most of humans, even Neo, till Agent Smith (being the machine with free will) changed the system the machines had going for centuries.

So no free will for those within the Matrix aside from Agent Smith.
Your opinion on "If something is predetermined/known in advance, it doesn't count as free will" raises some interesting theological questions involving God.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:04 PM   #6
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The Christian God is an illogical construct. Duh. Interesting, yes, but hardly revolutionary to men our age.
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:18 PM   #7
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Ohhhhhhhhhh! We moved on to the religious aspect!

Well I can firmly say I believe in free will, but knowing all things does not mean you decide them.
That being said, I do believe men's concept of God is illogical and a man's poor logic only makes God not seem godly.
That's why you have to own your faith instead of letting people decide your opinion.

There's a reason He is God and we are not. If you start believing your logic is as valuable as infinite wisdom...well then maybe you have become your own God.

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Old 05-25-2010, 12:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Free will debates (imo) should not be mixed with reality/illusion debates. The following example displays why:

Martin goes to Subway to get lunch. Unbeknownst to Martin, Steve is a disgruntled employee who was fired just last night from this very Subway. Unbeknownst to Martin, Steve's coworkers do not all yet know this; and Steve was therefore able to wear his uniform to work one last time, to show up for a shift that wasn't his own, to make up some story as to why he was there, and to slip cyanide into the mustard bottle while nobody was looking. Martin orders an Italian on wheat and asks the employee making his sandwich to add lettuce, black olives, red onion, and an extra helping of mustard. Martin sits down with his sandwich, takes a bite, and five minutes later is dead from acute cyanide poisoning.

Did Martin make a conscious, volitional decision to die today? No.
Did Martin make a conscious, volitional decision to do something which unbeknownst to him would ultimately cost him his life? Yes.

The Matrix is the same way. It's irrelevant whether people's choices are viewed from within the Matrix or from without. What's relevant is whether the decision-maker made those decisions of his own free will or not. The outcome of those decisions has no bearing on the free will, nor does the true nature of the thing being decided upon have any bearing on the free will. If I buy a tricycle, bring home the box, and inside is a bomb, I still bought a what-I-believed-to-be-a-tricycle of my own free will. No one made me buy the what-I-didn't-know-was-a-bomb-until-it-was-too-late.
The final say was Marvin's, but if we were to say his craving for copious amounts of mustard was by the interference of an external entity, could you still call it free will? Think of Lelouch's Geass - individuals under his command can function almost completely normally, save for whatever command Lelouch instilled upon them. During the times where the people aren't doing something specifically related to what Lelouch wants, are they still acting freely, "losing" their will when the Geass activates? We see this in Suzaku a lot, but I'm referring to those nameless grunts throughout the series who have Geass on them almost 24/7, like the people in the school he took over.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Duh. Interesting, yes, but hardly revolutionary to men our age.
This I know, but as I know Steely is a Christian I was more interested in what he believes on the issue of free will/omniscience.

The standard question would be "if an action is predetermined, is it actually free?" which I'm inclined to say a firm "no" on. If I will be given a choice of A or B at some point in my life, and yet, before I am born, my choosing A is known then I would have to say that I was not free to choose B. There could be some disagreement on semantics, but the general idea is very troubling on the issue of free will.
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:10 AM   #10
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Well I guess it's almost an irrelevant argument.
If you believe in no free will, then everyone responds according to what they are told to do.

If not, then you would agree with free will and are probably choosing to close your browser right now...
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:14 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muyotwo View Post
This I know, but as I know Steely is a Christian I was more interested in what he believes on the issue of free will/omniscience.

The standard question would be "if an action is predetermined, is it actually free?" which I'm inclined to say a firm "no" on. If I will be given a choice of A or B at some point in my life, and yet, before I am born, my choosing A is known then I would have to say that I was not free to choose B. There could be some disagreement on semantics, but the general idea is very troubling on the issue of free will.
Here's a theory on how God can be "All Knowing", everything being predetermined, yet Humans still having free will:

Alternate Universes, Infinite for every single variable choice everyone could possibly make, each time a choice presented, an alternate universe is born into existance to account for every possible choice available.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:32 PM   #12
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So God built the multiverse? Which one has me getting super powers cause I want to go to that one.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
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So God built the multiverse? Which one has me getting super powers cause I want to go to that one.
What did that bring to the conversation?
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:45 PM   #14
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Well, firstly, since Muyo was questioning a Christian, that means- Since when did God ever bring up a multiverse? Not in the Bible. Not in the various saintly visions. Nowhere in anything of the core Christian religion does it mention the concept.

It is mentioned in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Kabbalah, DC Comics, Marvel Comics, and various forms of fiction. So unless God is taking pointers from Stan Lee, I can't see how the multiverse theory applies to Christian beliefs in fate and free will.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
Well, firstly, since Muyo was questioning a Christian, that means- Since when did God ever bring up a multiverse? Not in the Bible. Not in the various saintly visions. Nowhere in anything of the core Christian religion does it mention the concept.

It is mentioned in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Kabbalah, DC Comics, Marvel Comics, and various forms of fiction. So unless God is taking pointers from Stan Lee, I can't see how the multiverse theory applies to Christian beliefs in fate and free will.
Well, I'm a Christian, and I speculate.
It is not given to us to know all the Mysteries of God, so the Bible tells us.

The purpose of the Bible is to help us achieve our Salvation, not understand how God created the universe, the world and Man, if we were given a complete compilation of God's Knowledge, we'd be Gods ourselves. Naturally, a religious book isn't going to go into the scientific theory behind making the sun, moon, and earth.

Just because He is God, doesn't mean He operates outside the realm of "science".

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Old 12-16-2010, 06:50 PM   #16
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Ah, so the Book of Genesis is totally not part of the Bible. The whole explaining how the world was made in six days was just for hooking our attention.

And I would hardly consider the multiverse to be taken as fact. It is all hypothetical and would be the same as me saying the world was populated by a man and his wife after she ate an apple that a talking snake coerced her into eating. Oh wait.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:19 PM   #17
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Genesis and Revelation are the two most dubious parts of the Bible. Genesis is just a borrowed Sumerian creation myth, while Revelation is the equivalent of a prophetic manifesto describing the end of the Roman Empire.

But Loki, a lot of long standing beliefs derived from the Bible are merely conjecture. Like how Mary is an eternal virgin. There's nothing explicitly written in there confirming or denying that, so Christians are all over the map on their treatment of the idea.

When it comes to Christianity, getting an idea after reading something in the Bible seems sufficient to consider it as a possibility. I personally think one God dividing himself up into three distinct "selves" is more far-fetched an idea than a multiverse.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:21 PM   #18
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Don't get me wrong, I couldn't really care less about the Bible.

But the multiverse as an excuse for something that has nothing to do with God, fate, and free will somehow all existing is just an absurd idea. Nowhere in anything Christian has there been an idea of the multiverse. The Bible is just the most common source for information about the beliefs of Christianity.

In fact, using fate and the multiverse further disproves the concept of free will, because if you exist in this universe, there is no chance to deviate from your fate because your other version in another multiverse did that deviation. Instead of free will, we just have God making every decision in every possible outcome in every one of his multiverses while us lowly humans are stuck to our fates.
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Old 12-17-2010, 07:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
Ah, so the Book of Genesis is totally not part of the Bible. The whole explaining how the world was made in six days was just for hooking our attention.

And I would hardly consider the multiverse to be taken as fact. It is all hypothetical and would be the same as me saying the world was populated by a man and his wife after she ate an apple that a talking snake coerced her into eating. Oh wait.
So you are telling me that God created the universe/world, in 6 periods of 24 Earth Hours? Who's to say God works in a Human Time frame? Perhaps 6 days to God is really 1000+ Earth years or something like that? It's not like a Human hour is a standard time reference everywhere in the Galaxy.

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Genesis and Revelation are the two most dubious parts of the Bible. Genesis is just a borrowed Sumerian creation myth, while Revelation is the equivalent of a prophetic manifesto describing the end of the Roman Empire.
If one believes the bible, one would say the sumerians were the ones who borrowed. Lets not forget that the "Hebrew" Religon wasn't actually created until much after the flood. Who's to say there was not a "different" religion which held much of the same knowledge and concepts that God gave to Moses, except that it had become perverted from correctness over time, just like the Hebrew Religion has today, as well as many Christian Churches too.


Quote:
But Loki, a lot of long standing beliefs derived from the Bible are merely conjecture. Like how Mary is an eternal virgin. There's nothing explicitly written in there confirming or denying that, so Christians are all over the map on their treatment of the idea.
I agree, and Highly disbelieve Mary was an eternal virgin.

The lack of "Explicitness" in the bible is for a reason, IMO. Much like using only one nail to fasten a board to another, the Bible can be twisted and interpreted in many very different ways, some of which can and do contradict each other, creating room for many different splits in religion.

However, if you add a second nail to that board...

Quote:
When it comes to Christianity, getting an idea after reading something in the Bible seems sufficient to consider it as a possibility. I personally think one God dividing himself up into three distinct "selves" is more far-fetched an idea than a multiverse.
I agree, the way God is described in the Nicene Creed is wholely far-fetched, and IMO, goes contrary to the teachings actually in the Bible.

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Old 12-17-2010, 02:42 PM   #20
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I couldn't care less how long a God Day is and if it did take six days or 4.6 billion years.

You said the Bible wasn't for understanding how the universe was made, but it explains it. I'm not even questioning that. I'm questioning how you are adding things like the idea of a multiverse to something that never brings any mention of such concepts.

It is like saying Galactus Devourer of Worlds is hungry all the time because the Wii is now in red. Does that make sense? Let me bring something completely unrelated to the subject and say that is why things are like they are.
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:10 PM   #21
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> implying the multiverse is a scientific theory and not pure comic fiction

LOLOLOLOLOL
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:38 PM   #22
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Actually, the multiverse has been proposed in serious scientific circles as an explanation for how universes are born and/or how they die. There are many different flavors of the theory, all with mathematical models and such, and absolutely NONE of which I can cite offhand. But if you would really like, I'll ask some of my physics major friends and see what I can't turn up for you, Emp. Obviously I'd encountered the multiverse in science fiction and video games and such since childhood, but freshman year of college (Fall 2003) I had my first real exposure to physicists publishing papers on the topic.

Umm ... how did we go from free will to God to multiverses? O_o Do I need to ask Kuno to give me mod powers for just one day so I can split this thread into two?
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Umm ... how did we go from free will to God to multiverses? O_o Do I need to ask Kuno to give me mod powers for just one day so I can split this thread into two?
I think it went:
Virtual Reality (total immersion) gives way to manipulation of free will by an external entity, or "predestiny." Predestiny raises questions about God, Religion, and free will.
Then I offered a plausible case where Humans are still allowed the right to choose while God does not become less of an all-knowing God.
Then people commented about that.
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Old 12-17-2010, 10:06 PM   #24
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Actually, the multiverse has been proposed in serious scientific circles as an explanation for how universes are born and/or how they die. There are many different flavors of the theory, all with mathematical models and such, and absolutely NONE of which I can cite offhand. But if you would really like, I'll ask some of my physics major friends and see what I can't turn up for you, Emp. Obviously I'd encountered the multiverse in science fiction and video games and such since childhood, but freshman year of college (Fall 2003) I had my first real exposure to physicists publishing papers on the topic.
Come on Talon, I know most of us are sci-fi geeks around here but surely you can't be open to a theory with no practical testability. Maybe I'm just being closed minded but I think people shouldn't believe in Multiverses and Spaghetti Monsters just because they sound cool. Thats as far as I can challenge you on Multiverses though, since I've never personally studied it. Just my 2C

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Alternate Universes, Infinite for every single variable choice everyone could possibly make, each time a choice presented, an alternate universe is born into existance to account for every possible choice available.
What constitutes a decision in which a new universe is suddenly created? Would it not make more sense to say any variable action? In which case the random movement of electrons would cause the havoc for god / the "universe generator". If our universe is infinite then there are an infinite number of multiverses; do you actually believe there could be a universe parallel to ours with the only difference being a slight altercation in movement of a single electron trillions of lightyears from earth? As Loki said, if there are infinite multiverses, wouldn't there be a universe in which he has superpowers? wouldn't there be a universe with a being powerful enough to penetrate and destroy all parallel universes, and effectively the multiverse? If you say no then you really don't understand the meaning of the word infinity
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Old 12-18-2010, 02:44 AM   #25
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Come on Talon, I know most of us are sci-fi geeks around here but surely you can't be open to a theory with no practical testability. Maybe I'm just being closed minded but I think people shouldn't believe in Multiverses and Spaghetti Monsters just because they sound cool. Thats as far as I can challenge you on Multiverses though, since I've never personally studied it. Just my 2C
We're getting pretty darn close to the physical and economic limits of testing such hypothesis. It's not scientific, but I'd relax the testing rigour simply because the cost of investing in a technology based on potentially flawed science is going to be less expensive than investing in a huge science experiment that might fail (in the worst case scenario) leading to billions in sunk dollars, or might succeed, leading to billions in sunk dollars and humanity a few facts more knowledgable.

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If one believes the bible, one would say the sumerians were the ones who borrowed.
I don't think this is what you meant to say, because it's temporally impossible for the Sumerians to have borrowed from the Hebrews. It's indeed possible the Sumerian myth was the original religion that was formalized by the Hebrews, but I'm not so Christo-centric that I'd believe ancient religions were influenced by a religion that came thousands of years later.

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I agree, and Highly disbelieve Mary was an eternal virgin.
As an RC I'm of the opposite view, she's pure and unsullied. =3=

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The lack of "Explicitness" in the bible is for a reason, IMO. Much like using only one nail to fasten a board to another, the Bible can be twisted and interpreted in many very different ways, some of which can and do contradict each other, creating room for many different splits in religion.
I don't think it was deliberate, or at least it was designed to have multiple interpretations. I think if the Bible was intended to be contemporary to the events it describes, the manual of style would be merely a summary to "refresh" people's memories of the incident. Most of the details would have been first-hand or second-hand memories, not the document itself. I don't doubt that in days of old, there was a consensus on what the Bible meant, which has been lost like so much knowledge has over-time.

I can tell you that, as a Christian, I would love to speak "YHWH" as the ancient Hebrews did. Simply because, I think God would feel some happiness in being called by his proper name, in the proper pronunciation. And that would make me happy.
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