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Old 05-23-2018, 03:01 PM   #4726
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Here is a pretty typical Ubers fight by players who mostly know what they're doing. (Not sure why the one guy refused to use Sleep Talk on either his RestTalk Kyogre or his Rest??? Giratina except for that very final opportunity, but whatever.) This is not the playground for a UU & Friends mono-Water team. One UU or OU Pokémon, fine. A Cloyster here, a Ditto there. But the rest has to be fleshed out with the big bruiser legendaries who can dish a beating and take a beating. Otherwise, you're just going to take the beatings and lose.

If you really want to have fun with a monotype team, I'd strongly encourage you to reconsider clutching to Kyogre as you have been and to just hop over from Ubers to Monotype. Your team would be much happier in Monotype. Here is the Gen 7 Monotype ruleset. All you stand to lose are Kyogre, Ash-Greninja (you can keap Protean Greninja instead), and Damp Rock.

Rain is a very strong theme team, so much so that it has been a major presence in both OU and VGC over the last few generations.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:07 PM   #4727
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I'm very rusty and bad at randbats but It's a team effort (ft. castform).
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:02 PM   #4728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Goalposts! I gave you Ash-Greninja to prove my point! You didn't say "Gyarados is only as good as Ash-Greninja": you said he's only as good as G-R-E-N-I-N-J-A! If you're going to cheat and automatically launch yourself into Ash-Greninja, then why don't I go ahead and also cheat by exactly one turn and give myself a free DD?
That wasn't goalposts, that was me treating an orange like a tangerine and creating miscommunication. I only run Ash-Greninja because, in the rain, I can make it work; Protean cannot be used in Ubers at all aside from a subpar suicide lead. When I did the calculation I was looking at Ash-Greninja stats.

I apologize, but I was always talking about Ash-Greninja, you can see from the replays I posted that's what I've been running and thinking about.

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Originally Posted by Ironthunder View Post
Just because there shouldn't be a problem doesn't mean there isn't a problem. There's quite clearly a problem. And I think a chunk of it stems back to the unavoidable truth of 'Monowater rain teams in Ubers aren't common for a reason'.
We don't know if there's a problem yet because I'm not skilled enough to tell. First, you need a good team and then you need to know how to use it. Only then can you really conclude "this team is totally unviable" or "this team has a niche". A bad player with a good team can still sack wins and a good player can't win with a bad one. Pokemon is a numbers came so there are times where mathematically, it's impossible no matter how skilled you are.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like a whiny brat here; I'm in Ubers because it's fun and I want to use Kyogre. I'm still stubborn when it comes to team building so maybe the addition of something like Toxapex would help out immensely.

Monowater might not be the problem so much as rain. It also lead me to realize a very sad thing just now:

252+ SpA Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y in Rain: 286-337 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (286, 289, 292, 297, 300, 303, 306, 310, 313, 316, 319, 324, 327, 330, 333, 337)

This is with Choice Scarf, which is necessary to outspeed Mewtwo-Y. I fall just short of the KO either way. Incidentally, Hydro Pump here does more damage than Dark Pulse, so the only reason to use it would be for the flinch chance.
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Old 05-24-2018, 12:33 AM   #4729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
We don't know if there's a problem yet because I'm not skilled enough to tell.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-04/gen7ubers-1760.txt

This is a usage table of all the Pokémon used in Ubers by players with an Elo score of 1760 or greater (and no one else! ). Our first Water type, Primal Kyogre, comes in at 10th place. Our second Water type, Arceus-Water (when did this become a thing!?), comes in at 18th place. Normal Kyogre comes in at 39th place. Cloyster's in 41st. Toxapex next at 54th. Palkia right behind at 55th. Mega Slowbro in at 68th. Greninja at 69th. Ordinary Slowbro at 84th. Mega Gyarados at 86th. Tapu Fini at 92nd. Ash-Greninja at 98th. Rotom-Wash at 113th. Tentacruel at 122nd. Finally, your boy Mega Swampert in at 127th place.

This table suggests that a water-themed duo core is possible at a high level of play between Kyogre and Arceus-Water, but that the duo requires support from outside the Water type from the other four teammates.
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Old 05-24-2018, 12:59 AM   #4730
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The Arceus-Water I run isn't used as a Primal Groudon check, but as a pseudo-Extreme Killer physical attacker since without Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken, I get annoyed by Pokemon with Focus Sashes like the Deoxys forms and some leads. Arceus has the bulk to set up without the OHKO and also do something when Blissey/Chansey/Aegislash are dancing around.

Kyogre is essential for Mega Swampert because Primal Kyogre isn't nearly as team friendly as Primal Groudon is: it can't set up hazards and like with Pdon its heavy weather lifts when it switches out. I got a little obsessed with swift swimmers because of Swampert but I really only need Swampert.

Ash-Greninja is excellent as a special attacker because with scarf it will even outspeed +2 Xerneas, losing only to the Z-Geomancy variant. Without specs or life orb, it doesn't have a lot of power so the rain is again essential, allowing the speedier Ash-Greninja to do as much damage as its OU specs counterpart.

Rain is only essential for these three though, which was my mistake initially: running a bunch of swift swimmers, two rain setters + filler. I now have a special wall in Quagsire, and a bulky physical attacker in Arceus-Water.
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:29 PM   #4731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Ubers isn't unfriendly to setup strategies. Ubers is setup strategies.
I took this advice and I'm having a lot more consistent "success" now. Or at least, I'm not getting habitually swept by Arceus/Xerneas/Marshadow anymore, even if I still lose in the end. I feel like the team is coming together cohesively so now it's developing the prediction and knowledge of the opponent.

This one is a good example. My Arceus is a bit slower than Extreme Killer so I can do some damage to Bulk Up Marshadow: that's probably why I survived the Extreme Killer's boosted hit. But I should have switched out to Rotom sooner for the Rocky Helmet damage, or use Waterium Z instead of Splash Plate if I know I can survive a hit (I'm still debating this). Pulling Extreme Killer was a misplay. I intentionally used Waterfall to see if heavy rain boosted water attacks further (it doesn't), two EQs from Mega Swampert will normally take out Mega Kyogre.

But a lot of games are going like this: way closer than sweep sweep sweep, which is what I was expecting. So yeah thanks for the advice Talon, it's definitely helped out.
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:04 PM   #4732
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I'm at 1325 ELO after this match. By far, the hardest matchup is just a who's who of the top ranked Ubers:

Primal Groudon
Extreme Killer Arceus
Marshadow
Geomancy Xerneas
Yveltal
Rayquaza

Zygarde can be a menace, but for the most part I don't have trouble with the following:

Primal Kyogre
Dusk Mane Necrozma
Dawn Wings Necrozma
Deoxys
Mewtwo
Lugia
Naganadel

The all-star team I mentioned has one thing in common: Xerneas and maybe Yveltal aside, it's a hyper offense of strong physical attackers. I could beat that if not for Xerneas, but since I have to stat Quagsire to chip Xerneas I will probably lose to that team. Perhaps disappointingly, while Quagsire can tank a +2 Extreme Speed, if I use Counter in response it leaves Arceus at 1-3% health through the Chople Berry. :/

Another mistake I keep making is:

-Using Dark Pulse on Marshadow
-Using Swords Dance in front of Primal Groudon, Xerneas

Sometimes it works against Groudon, but it never works against Xerneas. And the Marshadow mistake keeps happening because I'm afraid of Hydro Pump's accuracy but don't feel like Water Shuriken has enough power without a crit. And it usually doesn't, even in the rain.

-Ash-Greninja outspeeds Marshadow and should always use Hydro Pump or, if weakened, Water Shuriken
-Mega Swampert in the rain is faster than anything that isn't scarfed or boosted.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:17 PM   #4733
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Need some advice (Turn 10): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-752954508

The whole thing was pretty remarkable:

-Swords Dance
-Extreme Speed
-Recover
-Lum Berry?

What bothered me was why the Arceus didn't get OHKO'd.

43% of Quagsire's HP = 169 damage

Counter returns double that = 338 damage

Arceus is weak to Fighting, so it should be 676 damage.

So why did it survive? It didn't have a Chople Berry, it had a Lum Berry. Counter doesn't affect Marshadow, so type effectiveness applies. Is this a bug?
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:32 PM   #4734
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Ghost-types are immune to Counter but Counter doesn't do SE damage or resisted damage to anything.

It's not a bug.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:43 PM   #4735
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That's stupid and doesn't make any sense.

Either type effectiveness applies, or it doesn't. Another thing that bugs me is immunities don't cause stat drops either: Deoxys using Psycho Boost on Greninja doesn't lower Deoxys stats even though it did use the move.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:37 PM   #4736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
That's stupid and doesn't make any sense. Either type effectiveness applies, or it doesn't.
Type effectiveness sort of applies with both Counter (Fighting) and Mirror Coat (Psychic). Think of it in two steps:
  1. attack roll
  2. damage roll
First you perform an attack roll, and you check your type to see whether your attack is successful or not. Fighting? Successful against all but Ghost-type enemies. Psychic? Successful against all but Dark types. So: if you use Counter against a Ghost type, it will fail, and we can say that "type effectiveness applied."

Next you perform a damage roll. Normally you would check your type to see how much damage you should be dealing, but in the case of Counter and Mirror Coat they don't care -- when it comes time to do the damage roll, they operate like Bide or other "I only look in towards myself to assess the damage dealt" moves.

So it's not like Counter or Mirror Coat are 100% against your preference. They're more like 50% against it. You get the attack roll check that you wanted, and it's done correctly. But it's the damage roll part you're taking issue with them over.

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Another thing that bugs me is immunities don't cause stat drops either: Deoxys using Psycho Boost on Greninja doesn't lower Deoxys stats even though it did use the move.
This one makes me furrow my brow every time I see it too. (And usually it's me as the beneficiary, too!) But I think they've done it for game balancing reasons. I would not be opposed to seeing them boost the accuracy and/or power of these moves if they paired it with the penalty for their use still going off even if they failed to do any damage. Recharge moves (like Hyper Beam), stat-dropping moves (like Overheat), recoil moves (like Flare Blitz) ...

... Although, if we're being really honest here (and this is where things get perhaps too complicated for what is intended as a children's card game), then the element-absorption abilities like Flash Fire or Sap Sipper, when they encounter physical-damaging recoil moves like Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer, really should probably operate along the premises of "You didn't take any elemental damage, but you still take straight Normal physical damage." Taking zero damage makes sense if it's a special attack, like Flamethrower or Energy Ball: you just sucked all the energy up. But if it's a physical attack, then your ability shouldn't magically mean that I still didn't make physical contact with you. I still came hurtling into you at 80 mph. You should still have a bruised shoulder. Just not a bruised seared shoulder from my Flare Blitz. Because you absorbed away the fire, but you left behind my 80 mph body hurtling into you.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:47 PM   #4737
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Yeah Talon it'd be cool if that were a thing. I'd like to see more moves like Flying Press that have two typed damage to them but it seems like it was a one-time gimmick. I think it'd add another layer of strategy to the game. But like you said at the end of the day it's meant for kids sooooo probably not.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:18 PM   #4738
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The nice thing about it would be, it could also be part of the Holy Grail that makes Physical not objectively inferior to Special.

There have been many suggestions on how to fix this problem, most of them stemming from symmetry. Classic example: invent a SpIntimidate that reduces Special Attack by one level.

Old Game Freak (Gens 1-3) had a design philosophy of difference and asymmetry. You see it in the type chart (G1). You see it in things like Nasty Plot (G4) not being added to complement Swords Dance (G1) after Amnesia was repurposed (G2). You see it in things like the invention of the Choice Band (G3), and how originally it was all by itself, by design, but then fan whining made them concede the Scarf and the Specs to us (G4). You see it in how certain types are inherently faster (G1 Electric, Psychic) or slower (G1 Rock, G2 Steel) than others.

The thing is, the fandom by and large abhors asymmetry. You hear it all the time: "make me a defensive Ice type", "make me a special Rock/Fighting/Steel move", "rebalance Grass so it isn't weak to so much", "rebalance Water so it isn't so OP", "you gave them megas, why can't you give my guy a mega?", "we need one Double Edge clone for each of the 18 types", "we need one Ice Beam clone for each of the 18 types", "why is Kyogre objectively better than Groudon? Ugh!" (G3) / "why is Primal Groudon objectively better than Primal Kyogre? Ugh!" (G6) ... So I don't think they would take kindly to my proposal insofar as it is an O.G. / Gens 1-3 school of thinking proposal that asymmetrizes the Physical from the Special.

But flavor-wise, anime-wise, "if Pokémon were real"-wise ... I think my proposal's kinda unavoidable. Fire Fang's as much the Fang as it is the Fire. (Maybe even moreso the Fang portion! I would say so!) Lightningrod's nice and all, but I still Volt Tackled you, the least you could do is take some Normal damage while still guzzling down my electricity and boosting your SpAtk by one level.

This alongside similar things like "Ghost type should really be immune to all Physical attacks, irrespective of any concerns about game balance" ... You can't punch a ghost, and yet our Pokémon can and do. You can't bite a ghost, and yet somehow Bite and Crunch are two of the moves Ghost types fear the most.
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Old 05-26-2018, 12:58 AM   #4739
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Hail should freeze water attacks and make them Ice attacks. Drought should melt Ice attacks and make them water.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:36 PM   #4740
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This is one of my better matchups, since Primal Kyogre, Ho-Oh, and Necrozma-DM are usually good opponents for me. But I made some mistakes:

-expected Thunder, got hit with Water Spout = dead Swampert
-forgot the opponent had Arceus-Ground (I thought it was Extreme Killer) so I didn't Hydro Vortex Ho-Oh which was almost fatal

I've been mauled by Primal Groudon running Solar Beam, but that's a meme set. I think if I were to rank Pokemon by how threatening they are:

Marshadow (very strong, fast)
Yveltal (unpredictable)
Arceus (strong, fast)

Xerneas is pretty predictable so now that I've adapted to it. But I wouldn't call it easy to beat at all.
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Old 05-27-2018, 06:32 PM   #4741
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After a lot of thinking (and heavy resistance), I think I'm going to drop Dark Pulse from Ash-Greninja.

In Ubers I can't conceivably think of an opponent where Dark Pulse is a difference maker.

The Psychic types in ubers:

Mewtwo
Lugia
Deoxys
Necrozma
Solgaleo
Lunala

The Ghosts:

Marshadow
Giratina
Lunala

Greninja doesn't outspeed Mewtwo or Mega Mewtwo X, Deoxys will fall to any powerful move whether it's SE or not, and it's spitting difference with Lugia:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 198-237 (47.5 - 56.9%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 151-179 (36.2 - 43%) -- 97.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, a near guaranteed 3HKO, and a 35% chance to 2HKO.

Meanwhile the lists of suspects who laugh at Dark Pulse:

Marshadow
Yveltal
Xerneas
Magearna
Mega Sableye
Arceus-Fairy
Mega Mewtwo X
Darkrai

Compared to the group who are x4 weakness to ice (Shaymin, the Flying/Dragons) this feels like ditching a comfort blanket of sorts. Dark is a great defensive typing, but it subpar as an attacking STAB in this environment without a higher base power move.

If only Quagsire had Gyro Ball. He would be the perfect Xerneas wall with it.
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Old 05-27-2018, 07:59 PM   #4742
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What's your Quagsire set? Idk about Gen 7 but I know Quag has actually been used as a niche pick in Ubers in past gens and your rain probably helps it
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Old 05-27-2018, 10:02 PM   #4743
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Quagsire (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Unaware
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Bulldoze
- Acid Spray
- Aqua Tail
- Counter

This Pokemon is intended to "check" Geomancy Xerneas, which is otherwise nearly unstoppable. At +2, Thunder will OHKO everything except Kyogre (and Swampert), who is also heavily invested in special defense. So Water/Ground is essential to neutralize Thunder and force Xerneas to use Moonblast. None of other possible viable Water Pokemon - Azumarill, Palkia, Seismitoad - can face it. While some Pokemon need a 2HKO from Moonblast, since Xerneas is so fast, it will always get three attacks in.

So with this setup, Xerneas cannot 2HKO Quagsire on a free switch, unless Xerneas is packing Grass Knot, Giga Drain or Horn Leech (which it shouldn't). This gives Quagsire the opportunity to do chip damage and get Xerneas into KO range with priority.

Bulldoze is STAB, does chip and more importantly lowers Xerneas' speed so any of my normal Pokemon will be able to take it on. Aqua Tail is used in the rain because Waterfall's flinch chance is worthless with Quagsire's low speed.

With the Assault Vest, this set 100% bluffs the Unaware Physical Wall so Pokemon like Yveltal will waste turns using Taunt. High HP is necessary to maximize the power of Counter, which can be used with Assault Vest, which helps mitigate the loss of walling power against physical threats.

I gave Quagsire 0 Happiness because its purpose every battle is to die.

"Checks": Marshadow and Yveltal. Both can carry leeching moves, and Quagsire can't reliably inflict status using Assault Vest or recover HP. Marshadow is immune to Counter. The best Quagsire can do is Acid Spray and perhaps force a switch if I still have Greninja or Kyogre.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:03 AM   #4744
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This one's going to be the last match for a long time. It puts Quagsire's utility into perspective sponging the special attacks and being annoying on offense.

I re-spec'd Rotom after realizing that almost all of the Groudon sets are mixed attackers, so it's better to wall Groudon's special.

-Fire Punch is resisted, so Rotom is not 2HKO'd, and Groudon loses 30% of its HP from the Rocky Helmet damage
-Stone Edge is inaccurate and only has an 80% chance to 2HKO
-If Groudon is physical, Foul Play hurts him more

Rotom is immune to Precipice Blades, so what to worry about are Groudon's weaker special attacks, the worst of which is Eruption (as seen in that replay). Before the respec I would not be able to tank Eruption, though I've been able to handle Lava Plume since it's much weaker.

I can still check Necrozma-DM since all it has to hit me with is Photon Geyser, and Foul Play destroys Ultra (which cannot OHKO Rotom with Photon Geyser). Metagross is almost never a problem unless it carries Zen Headbutt, after which I'm going to switch because my entire team resists Steel.

I forgot to mention that Quagsire is even more powerful against Z-Geomancy Xerneas, because that's three turns I get to attack with no difference in effect compared to Power Herb Xerneas.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:08 AM   #4745
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I have no idea how I won this match at all.
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:35 PM   #4746
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So on Talon’s point about wanting various odd categories of moves (eg special steel), the thing is that flavor happens for a reason: Stuff like Magnezone where if not for moves like that, it would be an Electric type with an extra Steel typing. As great a defensive type as Steel is, Electric does not at all appreciate the added weaknesses (especially not to Ground!) without some actual offensive utility to back up the typing...but Nagnezone would need a special Steel move for that because it’s physical is a meme.I don’t know of many special Rock types (MAYBE Probopass? Don’t know enough about it), but that sort of thing is why they’d want Power Gem, especially if they lacked a secondary type.

Personally, my big want is a Physical Electric move at about Thunderbolt’s power...with no recoil, looking at you Gen V Wild Charge! (Special mention to that piece of work for batting in 5 power under Thunderbolt that Generation at 90, not even 95, and doing recoil Tbolt didn’t!)) The big reason is that Luxray is one of my favorite Pokémon...but if it doesn’t want to murder itself, it’s good STAB options are...Spark, and the much later Thunder Fang. Outside of that, it’s electric moves are either Special or Wild Charge. Those moves are good, don’t get me wrong, but with Thunderbolt existing, it makes being a physical Electric type a very hard sell unless you want to pack other elemental fangs (which, while a physical alternative to boltbeamthrower, are still discount versions power wise for what? Tiny chances for a flinch or status that you’ll almost never actually see? Not worth it, esp with imperfect accuracy).

Why people want defensive Ice types, though, I’ll never know. Avalugg is a premier example of a great physical ice type wall (again, by ice type standards), and a wonderful demonstration of why such will always end up around PU: A thing that only resists its sole type does not a good wall make.
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