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Old 09-26-2016, 10:20 PM   #2251
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(and that biased trash moderator - that was shameful, you're supposed to remain impartial and as the night wore on you could tell more and more that he took Hillary's side - which Trump not only predicted before the debates but is actually using to his advantage to become an underdog candidate).
I think this says less about bias and more about any debate with Trump moderated by a third party: we're talking about a billionaire who theoretically has more important things to be doing but constantly gets into slapfights with randos on Twitter because he will 1)throw his full weight behind any random fucking idea, no matter how gonzo and 2)defend said position to the death because he's so high on his "super hard-ass successful businessman" supply that conceding anything is unforgivable weakness.

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That said I'm fairly certain that the black vote is going to be heavily contested and I love seeing a Republican with a chance among black voters. Such a breath of fresh are to see a Republican candidate that actually cares about minorities - and is willing to contest that caring on the national stage. Love him or hate him, it's hard to deny that Trump isn't at least trying to make a good case for himself as a good President for minorities.
A chance with black voters when he's polling, what, like 9% amongst African Americans or some shit like that? Is the Grand Wizard of the KKK your baseline?

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Old 09-26-2016, 10:30 PM   #2252
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A chance with black voters when he's polling, what, like 9% amongst African Americans or some shit like that? Is the Grand Wizard of the KKK your baseline?
Thank you for pointing it out.

Try 2%

Or 3%

Hell, maybe 0%, who the fuck even knows

Maybe soon we'll get Vitamin D, whole, and lactose-free. If we're really lucky, maybe even organic.


Of course the NY Post, The Daily Caller, and Breitbart will tell you it's far higher than that though. Can't imagine why.
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Old 09-26-2016, 10:32 PM   #2253
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Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
(and that biased trash moderator - that was shameful, you're supposed to remain impartial and as the night wore on you could tell more and more that he took Hillary's side - which Trump not only predicted before the debates but is actually using to his advantage to become an underdog candidate).
https://twitter.com/DylanByers/statu...117377/video/1
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Old 09-26-2016, 10:34 PM   #2254
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This debate was more or less what we would've expected. Hillary talked shop, Trump was Trump. In a contest of "who knows their fucking shit", Hillary continues to run up the scoreboard, however Trump hangs in there with a cult of personality bonus. I don't particularly care about brand names, so it's fairly intuitive who I think did the better job.

Also, frankly I think the moderator needs to be more forceful. Fact check candidates who are blatantly lying (obvious limits, but if Trump or Clinton claim that they invented the internet or can outbench Obama or say crime is up when it's down or down when it's up, call them out for lying. They deserve it). And make them answer the goddamn question, enough of the bait and switch where you give a ten word lip service so you can go talk about whatever you want. Grill them and make them cut the bullshit so we can get some real answers to the concerns we have.

The moderator should be more than just the person who gives topics and occasionally tries to manage the clock. I don't want somebody who just keeps the candidates in check, I want somebody to hold the candidates accountable. You're running for President, for Christ's sake. You owe it to us.
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Old 09-26-2016, 11:54 PM   #2255
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That shocks me. Was not pleased with the moderator's conduct. I have a different opinion about the moderators than Stealthy though - I don't like directed debates. To me, the moderator is there to keep the debate from running too "hot" or too "cold" - minimize interruptions, keep the discussion flowing naturally, prevent any one candidate from having too much talk time, and keep the pace of the discussion.

Whatever. I'm not gonna fight on this, since it definitely coulda been worse.

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A chance with black voters when he's polling, what, like 9% amongst African Americans or some shit like that? Is the Grand Wizard of the KKK your baseline?
I predicted that the black vote would be heavily contested and I'm going to go ahead and sit on that prediction. Trump is capable of pulling votes if he can break through the chasm that the Democrats have neatly and effectively placed between him and the black vote.

He seems willing to try, which is refreshing coming from a Republican candidate.


Regardless, tonight's debate gave attention to his plans for minority communities. As I am not a minority community, nor do I have much experience with them, I'm not going to be able to conclusively say if it was effective or not. Gut feeling is that he's gotten words in people's ears. But Hillary got to yap on about criminal justice for a long time and that might resonate with minority communities more - especially since Trump stuck his foot up his own ass with the whole "Law and Order" speech. Whether or not it's the right thing to do is not up for debate; whether or not it's what black communities want is. And I don't think that the vocal groups like BLM want more cops on the streets.

I'm not going to pretend that Trump is polling well with minority communities now. I'll hope that he polls well, but I'm not going to be surprised if he crashes and burns in that voting bloc.

THAT SAID, it was a little amusing watching Hillary and Trump try to fight each other over something they clearly agree on. I'm glad that Trump said "I agree with Secretary Clinton" so much - made him seem far more rational than he's come across as in the past.

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he will 1)throw his full weight behind any random fucking idea, no matter how gonzo and 2)defend said position to the death because he's so high on his "super hard-ass successful businessman" supply that conceding anything is unforgivable weakness.
Conceding anything IS unforgivable weakness. Hillary spent a nonzero amount of time trying to rationalize away her TPP policy swing, among other, milder admissions. Nobody likes a president who frequently changes their mind.

Unless you're talking about his off-stage personality, which you pretty much just know about secondhand through responses to cherrypicked tweets.
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Old 09-26-2016, 11:58 PM   #2256
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Propose to Trump already, Shuckle.
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:00 AM   #2257
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This debate was more or less what we would've expected. Hillary talked shop, Trump was Trump. In a contest of "who knows their fucking shit", Hillary continues to run up the scoreboard, however Trump hangs in there with a cult of personality bonus. I don't particularly care about brand names, so it's fairly intuitive who I think did the better job.
Did you really feel that Trump didn't talk shop at all? I felt that both candidates laid out their plans pretty clearly. I do agree that Hillary did it more, and more clearly, but Trump was engaged in sparring while Hillary had a whole team of people doing it for her behind the scenes. (Brilliant move putting the fact checker on her site, even though I strongly doubt it was a fact checker..."fact" "checker" seems more accurate. And I say this with love.)

I think this is a bias thing because when I asked my mother she said that Hillary was "all talk." Buuuut both of us care way more about the political circus than about either candidate's policy stances SO
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:04 AM   #2258
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Propose to Trump already, Shuckle.
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Trump came out on top not because his rhetoric was better (Hillary won on that front) but because he came out of the debate mostly clean.
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THIS IS NOT TO SAY that I am unequivocally a Trump supporter. Believe me, I saw the things that Hillary did well. I clashed with my (Republican) mother over it.
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I was also let down multiple times by Trump who continues to be too cautious for my liking.
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Now, to be fair, Donald's still not doing well on the racist front, and Clinton's gotten significantly bolder with those accusations. He's been deflecting, and theoretically he should be choosing a moment to strike, but I had thought that this debate would be that time. He's got a month to convince the country he's not racist...
Rangeet, I think you have the same allergy to facts that Trump does.
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:12 AM   #2259
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"This is not to say I am unequivocally a Trump supporter. However, I will continue to act as if he won the debate or as if he is a superior candidate in any way, shape or form."

You're in denial. You're in denial because you're exactly as shitty a person as every other Trump supporter. You just don't want to own up to it. Everyone here knows it. Everyone here knows that none of Trump's barbaric proposals would affect you remotely as much as it would affect other people on this forum. Everyone here knows that you would love for Trump to be less shitty so that you could pretend to support him and his barbaric policies openly. Because you agree with them all.
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Old 09-27-2016, 12:39 AM   #2260
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You're in denial. You're in denial because you're exactly as shitty a person as every other Trump supporter.
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1. Be Civil! This shouldn't need any explanation. Avoid ad homenem and other forms of direct attack. This is a debate forums, not a place for your petty fights. In the midst of heated debates, it is easy to get caught up, and while we understand that it might happen every once in a while, try your best to avoid personal attacks. If it persists, you will be warned and may recieve a ban from the forum if it gets out of hand.
No more character attacks. Consider it your final warning.

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Old 09-27-2016, 12:49 AM   #2261
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Did you really feel that Trump didn't talk shop at all? I felt that both candidates laid out their plans pretty clearly.
No. Hitting the same refrains for an hour and a half and displaying a superficial (and sometimes wrong) understanding of the issues doesn't count as talking shop. Though I suppose he did lay out his plan for running the country, which much like his plan for fighting ISIS, doesn't really exist beyond whatever bluster he can pull out of his ass.

It's a shame he's not a Senator. The guy'd be great at filibustering.
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Old 09-27-2016, 01:18 AM   #2262
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Just from the shit I've seen on iFunny I'd hardly think Trump won this debate. Talk about the emails all you want, but now Trump has the tweets that his team deleted as he said stuff to directly contradict them.
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Old 09-27-2016, 01:29 AM   #2263
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The main problem with defending Trump as a candidate is that all his moves are strategic short-term, as election winners. It's what attracted me towards him as a viable candidate in the first place (his policies being nearly identical to Hillary's definitely helped my mental opinion of him).

It's hard to say "Yes I really think that the all-style, no-substance candidate is the best choice to run our country," but I really can't help it; so much of the presidential office is flavor, and Trump just tastes so sweet compared to sour Hillary, salty Bernie, and bitter Johnson.

Hillary has one game winner up her sleeve (which Trump has been on like a dog with a bone): she's politically experienced. As much as Trump likes to talk about how Obama was a bad president, his weaknesses came from his inexperience - and Trump is not politically experienced. His mistakes could be equal to or even greater in magnitude to Obama's.

This is not to agree with Trump that Obama had a bad presidency. Only that he had weaknesses. Because he's a human being. Clear? I think the Obama administration did a pretty good job during its 8 years of life.

This is ALSO not to say that the Obama administration was perfect, or that Trump has NO valid criticisms of it. If Hillary wasn't posturing as "Obama 2: Feminist Boogaloo" she'd have some choice words to say about him, too. And again, I say this with love. It's getting her elected, so it's a good thing. I support feminism, and, as stated, I liked the Obama administration. I just think that Hillary was treading cautiously on the subject of Obama's mistakes because of her political trappings.

Trump called her out on it, actually - hitting pretty hard that she was playing nice with Obama now but got ugly against him during the 2008 election.

Honestly? I think there is substance. I think Trump needs to peel his tiny little hands away from his closely-guarded secrets and let people see what the fuck he's planning on doing. But he won't, because he's Trump, and staying quiet on things lets him hit from unexpected angles during negotiations and debates - such as his near-constant agreement with Clinton on several issues that people expected him to fight on.

He's afraid that Hillary's going to steal his policy stances (which, let's face it, is something she's already done - see: energy) and present herself as the Democratic version of an already-moderate Republican. This is something that he wants to avoid at all costs.

UNFORTUNATELY this little bit of petty politics is currently costing him an easy landslide election. Or an embarrassing landslide defeat, if the American public decides it doesn't like what he has to say. Until then, the race remains inaccurately close.
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Old 09-27-2016, 02:02 AM   #2264
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Just from the shit I've seen on iFunny I'd hardly think Trump won this debate. Talk about the emails all you want, but now Trump has the tweets that his team deleted as he said stuff to directly contradict them.
I'm sure Hillary knows all about what happens when you need to quickly delete a lot of things that you don't want people to see :^)

EDIT: Oh boo I have 3rd grade level reading comprehension and missed that you already brought up the emails.

(tweets are meaningless. also hillary's tweet game is pretty fire)
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Old 09-27-2016, 06:25 AM   #2265
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Hillary won the debate but not by enough. Trump didn't hit on immigration, which was either his fault, the topics' "fault" or both. He's certainly still in the game, and I don't think he did anything to substantially hurt his cause.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:49 AM   #2266
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As much as Trump likes to talk about how Obama was a bad president, his weaknesses came from his inexperience - and Trump is not politically experienced. His mistakes could be equal to or even greater in magnitude to Obama's.
I will dispute this. I don't think Obama's failures were entirely due to inexperience. Obama came into the presidency like a straight A student does to their first job - a little rough around the edges, but nothing the raw intelligence and training can't solve.

Obama failed because #1 he set his sights too high, and #2 he couldn't control the Democratic Party. Neither reason is mutually exclusive, with #2 being the primary problem. And it's not like I, or anyone could blame him - the Democratic Party is too large, too pork barrel to control, whether the president be Obama, Bill or Hillary.

Obamacare could have happened in its unadulterated form if it came about through the Republican Party side of things. The Democrats were the ones who stripped it apart well before the Republicans got a shot, and it was the Democrats who made Obamacare within comment range of the Republicans in the first place.

That said, if I call "inability to control one's party" a weakness, your original point still stands that it's a shared weakness between Trump and Obama.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:50 AM   #2267
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No more character attacks. Consider it your final warning.
Amazing to note that the rules for a debate thread on some random subforum are more strict than those for a Presidential debate, isn't it?

(Noted, anyway.)

Anyway, Shuckle just said that "Trump's policies are nearly identical to Hillary's." So it shouldn't be at all surprising that he thinks Trump "won" the debate. Or that Trump is a reasonably candidate for President.
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Old 09-27-2016, 08:17 AM   #2268
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I'm sure Hillary knows all about what happens when you need to quickly delete a lot of things that you don't want people to see :^)

EDIT: Oh boo I have 3rd grade level reading comprehension and missed that you already brought up the emails.

(tweets are meaningless. also hillary's tweet game is pretty fire)
Sure, they're "meaningless" because they prove your candidate is just as pathological a liar as Clinton if not more so. Honestly, the amount of cognitive dissonance you show is astounding, so I'm just going to leave it at this:

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Old 09-27-2016, 10:51 AM   #2269
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Hillary won the debate but not by enough. Trump didn't hit on immigration, which was either his fault, the topics' "fault" or both. He's certainly still in the game, and I don't think he did anything to substantially hurt his cause.
I pretty much agree with Mozz (for once). Trump suffered compared to the primary debates because there were fewer people on stage so he had to talk more - it exposed his lack of substance on a lot of things - but Hilary is a shitty public speaker and did a mediocre job for the most part. As much as I (and most of the evidence) strongly disagrees with Trump on immigration, it's one of those topics where he's going to win over votes because a violent hatred for all immigration has become received wisdom across most of the western world.

At most, the debate might've swung some people who hadn't been paying attention up until now and were planning on voting Republican out of habit/because they're tired of Obama and 8 years of Democrat White House over away from Trump, but it's going to have minimal impact on Trumps coalition of people who're sick and tired of the same old politics, people who (not unjustifiably) hate Clinton's guts, and the racists. The first one of those three is the most substantial and the one Clinton needs to strike for (alongside undecided voters who might otherwise swing Republican this time for aforementioned reasons) but given her long history in politics and singular lack of charisma/public speaking talent, that's easier said than done. She's fighting against the same force that propelled Sanders, caused Brexit and elected Corbyn.

>Alleged moderator bias in favour of Clinton

For what it's worth, Holt is a registered Republican. Imo he stuck to callung outright mistruths, which given Trump makes more of those than Clinton would mean he was pressing him more than her.
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Old 09-27-2016, 01:49 PM   #2270
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I'm interested to see how many people turned off the debate after the first half hour. By the time it was over, 10:45p EST, I was p much in bed because I'm 78 years old
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Old 09-27-2016, 02:43 PM   #2271
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Apparently the Nielsen ratings say that viewership remained highly throughout the night.
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Old 09-27-2016, 03:24 PM   #2272
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Old 09-27-2016, 03:27 PM   #2273
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I will dispute this. I don't think Obama's failures were entirely due to inexperience. Obama came into the presidency like a straight A student does to their first job - a little rough around the edges, but nothing the raw intelligence and training can't solve.

Obama failed because #1 he set his sights too high, and #2 he couldn't control the Democratic Party. Neither reason is mutually exclusive, with #2 being the primary problem. And it's not like I, or anyone could blame him - the Democratic Party is too large, too pork barrel to control, whether the president be Obama, Bill or Hillary.

Obamacare could have happened in its unadulterated form if it came about through the Republican Party side of things. The Democrats were the ones who stripped it apart well before the Republicans got a shot, and it was the Democrats who made Obamacare within comment range of the Republicans in the first place.

That said, if I call "inability to control one's party" a weakness, your original point still stands that it's a shared weakness between Trump and Obama.
Now I've been on a hunt to fact check my mother's claims; she still speaks with people who are in some pretty comfy positions in government and I trust her, but I'm not finding her criticisms anywhere online.

Essentially, her claim is that Obama didn't know enough about the traditional responsibilities and duties of the President. He didn't work closely enough with Congress, he didn't navigate the political scene with enough savvy, and his "bipartisan wrangling" was just him and his Democratic allies tearing apart the language of the bills they produced in the vague hopes that Republicans would like them.

Which, let's be fair, is consistent with all the events that actually happened...but that doesn't make it true. So I'm gonna chalk that up to a rumor and not try to force the issue.

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I pretty much agree with Mozz (for once). Trump suffered compared to the primary debates because there were fewer people on stage so he had to talk more - it exposed his lack of substance on a lot of things - but Hilary is a shitty public speaker and did a mediocre job for the most part. As much as I (and most of the evidence) strongly disagrees with Trump on immigration, it's one of those topics where he's going to win over votes because a violent hatred for all immigration has become received wisdom across most of the western world.
Trump is an anti-establishment candidate and his entire argument revolves around basically taking Hillary out of power. That's his substance.

I felt that Trump benefited from having fewer people on stage - he showed some pretty tight focus last night and kept returning to the specific issues he wanted to address. He fired some tough shots at Hillary which was his entire intention for tonight's debate. But I don't think that Trump is a racist sociopath, so take that with a grain of salt.

I wish he'd just get a fucking move on and lay out his policy positions like Hillary has, but realistically that's not going to happen because he's not running on policy positions, he's running on "I can create good policy positions because I'm a smart and effective businessman."

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For what it's worth, Holt is a registered Republican. Imo he stuck to callung outright mistruths, which given Trump makes more of those than Clinton would mean he was pressing him more than her.
Eh like I said it's the impression I got. Like I said though I don't like directed debates like the style of last night's so I'm already not a fan of the position the moderator held.

I shouldn't have said "biased trash moderator" but I like strong words.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:04 PM   #2274
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>Shuckle

By substance, I (and any commentator) means policy positions. Like sure, you're not going to do what Clinton will, great. Nor would Putin, Gaddafi, Kim Jong, etc. The world is filled with politicians who wouldn't do what the status quo in the West is, but as bad as the West's status quo is most of the other explicitly spelled out options are worse. Unless you're explicitly spelling out your policy positions, in detail, and those are better than status quo candidates like Clintons, a candidate has no substance - and is therefore worth neither our time nor our votes.

At the end of the day, the only thing that's going to have an impact on our lives once they're on office is the specific policy detail, so it's the one and only thing that should matter for our votes too.
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Old 09-28-2016, 05:43 PM   #2275
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The debate was reasonable and the aftermath is a shitshow. At times I find myself shaking my head and wondering "Did they even watch the debate?"

Disgraceful.

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At the end of the day, the only thing that's going to have an impact on our lives once they're on office is the specific policy detail, so it's the one and only thing that should matter for our votes too.
Not an accurate point of view when it comes to the Presidential election. Their specific policy detail actually matters a lot less than their "judgment" (which is why that was one of the questions asked during the debate!!!!!!).

Presidents need to be able to roll with the punches and take action against unforeseen threats and crises.

Trump's argument is that Clinton would do a worse job than him and cited her actions as Sec. of State as proof of this.

Clinton's argument varies slightly and reaches into other parts of the Presidency: representation. Her claim is a little scattered but boils down to "questionable moral character," and cites his actions as a businessman and public figure as proof of this.

Each candidate is trying to undermine the strengths of the other. I mentioned their respective running platforms a while ago.

Problem with Trump's argument is that Clinton isn't doing it by herself, she's got a whole legion of people making sure she does her job right and for the right people. She's also very experienced on the political scene, and will have the know-how to get shit done (which is why she's hammering home policy positions rather than judgment calls).

Problem with Clinton's argument is that it's full of inaccuracies and reaches unreasonably far to try to find Trump being intentionally misleading when really he's just being Trump. I mean. Not like Hillary knows anything about people trying to find malice in her mistakes :^)
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Last edited by Shuckle; 09-28-2016 at 05:53 PM.
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