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Old 01-22-2017, 10:27 PM   #3326
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Police seem to be pretty hands off with these types of protests and will not take action, but I might have some selection bias, and I'm willing to be shown otherwise.
Do you think it's better for police to play it carefully and err on the side of freedom of expression, or to enable idiots to run over people because they feel that their right to catch Duck Dynasty is being infringed upon? There are probably ways to ensure that ambulances can make it to hospitals AND protect First Amendment rights that are less stupid.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:31 PM   #3327
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Also this is distracting us from the real news from today, which is that Alternative Facts are now apparently a thing. For example, I'm not an asshole, just alternatively friendly.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:48 PM   #3328
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There are probably ways to ensure that ambulances can make it to hospitals AND protect First Amendment rights that are less stupid.
Not everyone goes to the hospital by way of an ambulance, is one problem. Ambulances are expensive. Not everyone has health insurance which will cover the cost, or has living expenses which can cover the cost. And many, many expected deliveries even out of high-income households end up with the husband driving his wife to the hospital in their own vehicle.

A second problem that builds out of the first is, jackasses who will abuse easy systems force complex systems upon the rest of us. For example, take pregnant women. It'd be easy to just look at her large belly and go, "Alright, you're pregnant, move along." But we both know people will abuse a system that naive. So we're going to end up needing some stupidly complex system of Pregnancy I.D. cards for expecting mothers, just so they can be hastened through the checkpoints in a protest line, and ... Yeah, no, it's just easier to say, "Protesters can't block certain roads period, and protestors blocking other roads better let motorists with pregnant passengers through or else!" The very notion of carding pregnant women is so absurd as to automatically invite, in my mind, your swift and scathing rebuke. But it's crap like that, complex plans, that are going to have to arise if we're going to try and have our cake and eat it too.

At the end of the day, it boils down to a "my rights vs. your rights" problem. You guys are right about the toothlessness of certain proposed protest models. But you also acknowledge the serious problem of emergency medical care being denied to those in need.

And I don't think this is a new problem. As has been pointed out already, someone in need of urgent medical assistance but being fucked over by huge crowds ... this very problem probably arose at least once during yesterday's March on Washington. It probably arises at least once each year with the Times Square New Year's Eve ball drop. And it probably arose at least a dozen times when the Chicago Cubs recently won the World Series and had a parade in their honor in Chicago, attracting some seven million Americans.

I don't think any of us here, silent or talking, is well-studied enough in matters of protest. Which is unfortunate, as it's an increasingly relevant topic in many of our lives. (Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, March on Washington ...) That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to feel this one out though. I think the discussion so far has been interesting. Particularly where it's gotten in the last hour.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:34 PM   #3329
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Talon, just FYI, planned events in NYC, even if it's a few days in advance, are disseminated to all emergency personnel in advance, so they can make the appropriate plans, so there really aren't many issues. 20 people protesting DAPL by chaining themselves to the GWB and blocking traffic is more of a legitimate issue in terms of blocking emergency vehicles.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:49 PM   #3330
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A second problem that builds out of the first is, jackasses who will abuse easy systems force complex systems upon the rest of us. For example, take pregnant women. It'd be easy to just look at her large belly and go, "Alright, you're pregnant, move along." But we both know people will abuse a system that naive. So we're going to end up needing some stupidly complex system of Pregnancy I.D. cards for expecting mothers, just so they can be hastened through the checkpoints in a protest line, and ... Yeah, no, it's just easier to say, "Protesters can't block certain roads period, and protestors blocking other roads better let motorists with pregnant passengers through or else!" The very notion of carding pregnant women is so absurd as to automatically invite, in my mind, your swift and scathing rebuke. But it's crap like that, complex plans, that are going to have to arise if we're going to try and have our cake and eat it too.
Except we already have a permit system in many of these places (including DC), which handles a good chunk of the above concerns already? This also ignores the fact that protests large enough to involve thousands of people and block off huge chunks of a city generally don't spontaneously spring into being, and require enough lead time for everyone to be on the same page (and by extension, get the word out for people to adjust accordingly).

Quote:
At the end of the day, it boils down to a "my rights vs. your rights" problem. You guys are right about the toothlessness of certain proposed protest models. But you also acknowledge the serious problem of emergency medical care being denied to those in need.
I'm going to say that the latter probably is less of an issue in an era of widely-available GPS and the fact that most areas large enough for these types of protest also tend to have alternative routes available, in addition to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
And I don't think this is a new problem. As has been pointed out already, someone in need of urgent medical assistance but being fucked over by huge crowds ... this very problem probably arose at least once during yesterday's March on Washington. It probably arises at least once each year with the Times Square New Year's Eve ball drop. And it probably arose at least a dozen times when the Chicago Cubs recently won the World Series and had a parade in their honor in Chicago, attracting some seven million Americans.
Here's the problem, though: streets and highways have blocked/severely slowed traffic all the time*, and most of it isn't due to protestors but traffic accidents and the like. This is a Not Good thing if your wife is going into labor in the backseat, but in general we accept that trying to power your way through a seven-car pileup usually just makes things worse. Why is trying to power through a bunch of protestors different?

You should ask yourself if there's really a pressing public safety risk that these laws are combating, or if it's simply the same sort of grandstanding about how we're totally going to withdraw from the UN you guys, honest**.

*
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Or are the 405 and will be bumper-to-bumper traffic at fucking midnight for no discernible reason


**
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Until we talk to the Israeli ambassador and find out they're pissed that we're not able to have their back in the Security Council anymore, which might be important when the POTUS seems like he wants to kick off the third Infitada.
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Old 01-23-2017, 03:34 AM   #3331
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A Breitbart writer will join the white house staff. This on top of Steve Bannon being Trump's Chief Strategist.

Friendly reminder that Steve Bannon himself declared Breitbart the "platform for the alt-right." The alt-right, of course, are better known as neo-Nazis. So the US is about to have two open neo-Nazis in their government.

At what point do you go from "terrible president" to "literally fascist"? For me, it was months ago.
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Old 01-23-2017, 04:45 AM   #3332
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Trump's cabinet has looked to have a lot of "alternative" politicians from the beginning, to borrow their use of the word.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:13 AM   #3333
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Originally Posted by Blastoise View Post
Here's the problem, though: streets and highways have blocked/severely slowed traffic all the time*, and most of it isn't due to protestors but traffic accidents and the like. This is a Not Good thing if your wife is going into labor in the backseat, but in general we accept that trying to power your way through a seven-car pileup usually just makes things worse. Why is trying to power through a bunch of protestors different?
Like a lot of things in penal law, intent matters. If you were thrown into the street from your crashed car, you are probably not going to be handcuffed and carted off in a paddy-wagon. But if you did it just for kicks, you will be charged and might get arrested.

I don't agree with Mozz's example, so I'll offer a better, more well-worn one: the self-defense argument.

In Alabama, if someone intrudes into your house, you can shoot them. Them entering your house while you are in it qualifies as a "threat to your life". This doesn't apply to outside the home (like the yard).

California, by contrast, has more stringent requirements. First, not only does the intruder have to be in your house, they also have to either attack you or make some gesture that indicates your life is in danger.

Second, you have to exercise "lethal force". Meaning, shoot-to-kill. If you admit you shot to disarm someone, you can be sued by that person for everything you own, even if they entered your home and pointed a gun at you! A non-stupid person, then, would usually shoot to kill or avoid saying a non-lethal or missed shot wasn't intended to kill.

...

How is that related to Mozz's argument? In regard to one's reaction toward the protesters blocking your way. The protesters don't have a legal right from blocking you from going to work, or saving your wife. Most people would say such things trump a right to free speech. So, use force, but not lethal force.

Fire hoses!
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:16 AM   #3334
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Can we talk about the fact that Kellyanne Conway and the White House Press secretary are actively lying and attempting to gaslight the American people?
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:48 AM   #3335
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A Breitbart writer will join the white house staff. This on top of Steve Bannon being Trump's Chief Strategist.

Friendly reminder that Steve Bannon himself declared Breitbart the "platform for the alt-right." The alt-right, of course, are better known as neo-Nazis. So the US is about to have two open neo-Nazis in their government.

At what point do you go from "terrible president" to "literally fascist"? For me, it was months ago.
I really don't think you know dick about what the 'alt-right' is.
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Old 01-23-2017, 04:12 PM   #3336
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Can we talk about the fact that Kellyanne Conway and the White House Press secretary are actively lying and attempting to gaslight the American people?
I think the sheer Orwellian ridiculousness is numbed by the knowledge that we all knew attendance numbers would be a big deal once Trump bragged about yuge it would be, and that Conway is a modern day Squealer whose default position on anything is concentrated horseshit meant to distract from the fact that she's running interference for a dimwitted narcissist.

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I really don't think you know dick about what the 'alt-right' is.
No, I think it's safe to say that the alt-right plays host to the kind of assholes that don't want to be called Neo-Nazis because they think the latter term has a branding problem while completely lacking the self-reflection to consider why. That isn't ALL of them if the DeploraBall drama is to be believed, but overall the alt-right attracts a lot of other knuckle draggers who want the political legitimacy while posting on r/redpill about how there's a secret government conspiracy to prevent nice guys from passing on their superior genes in favor of easily-led Chadspawn.
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Old 01-23-2017, 11:36 PM   #3337
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thank god for blastoise
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:46 AM   #3338
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Also, I've been seeing this article passed around in the wake of the election. It teeters too deeply into cynicism even for me (I accept that some people are just pricks and will never be shaken from that path, but there had to be an environment that let that resentment grow deep enough to begin with and which can theoretically be changed), but since we're on the topic of the alt-right the author's assertion that a good chunk of spite voting is driven by sexual frustration seems to be oddly prescient in an era where Gamergate/MRAs are screeching loudly enough to push their way to the forefront.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:52 AM   #3339
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They passed Pompeo for CIA, and Rubio caved characteristically and Tillerson made it through committee, so the board is officially cleared for his confirmation. And they've made it clear that they're gonna push DeVos through, which isn't surprising. Sessions, Carson, Ross, and Chao are all up for committee votes this week. All will get approved, even Carson.

McConnell's calls for unity remain fucking hilarious. That said, will be crying inside and laughing when the Democrats new platform becomes "oppose everything Trump does".
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Old 01-24-2017, 03:12 AM   #3340
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I really don't think you know dick about what the 'alt-right' is.
Oh, Mozz, please do enlighten all of us. We're holding our breaths; after all, you are a self-proclaimed patron of the alt-right movement.
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:36 AM   #3341
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"Trump names his Inauguration Day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion"."

Well, this is fucking concerning. A big ol' jump towards fanatical nationalism for sure.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:34 AM   #3342
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DONALD!!!

Yesterday sort of sucked but that was pretty awesome.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:36 AM   #3343
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Oh, Mozz, please do enlighten all of us. We're holding our breaths; after all, you are a self-proclaimed patron of the alt-right movement.
Not sure if I've linked to this before, but this is a pretty decent summary:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/08/w...-right-is.html
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:32 AM   #3344
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*Posts Vox Day link to prove the alt-right isn't racist*

uh

Quote:
The Alt Right believes we must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children.
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:12 AM   #3345
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Mozz, I'm just going to leave this here. This is from the /r/SubredditOfTheDay thread from when /r/AltRight was featured as the subreddit of the day. Straight from the horse's fucking mouth.

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Old 01-24-2017, 12:22 PM   #3346
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Problem is, that incredibly condescending and condemning final reply, as persuasive and "You tell 'im, bro! " as it may sound to you, isn't helpful. It isn't going to persuade anyone. (Those who find it persuasive are already not members of that group. And those who are members of that group won't find it persuasive.) It ostracizes a group who has coalesced out of perceived ostracization, i.e. it further legitimizes, in their minds, their decision. And it childishly ignores the truth --

-- that there are and that there historically have been plenty of intelligent racists. That intelligence doesn't mean "is never wrong" or "never stupidly believes in wrong things." Think of all the intelligent Christians/atheists you know. (Pick a side; there's plenty on both sides to go around.) Think of all the "idiot doctors" you know who were smart enough to pass numerous exams and get their M.D. Think of all the people on this forum you know who you know to be intelligent, in at least some sense, who say things or believe things that make you rage at their stupidity? To those of us who decry racism, it's easy to agree with an attitude like "Only a stupid person could be racist." But it isn't correct. Racism isn't limited to only stupid people.

If it's one thing the Internet has taught us over the past ten years, it's that labels can be culturally misappropriated and that you're fighting a losing battle in most instances to cling to a label which has already been appropriated by terrible people. Good guy feminists having to explain that man-hating "feminists" aren't real feminists ... Good guy journalistic integrity critics having to explain that not everyone associated with Gamergate is a misogynist ... Good guy BLM supporters clashing with bad guy BLM supporters over what the group's identity is and agenda should be ... And both good guy Democrats and Republicans having to explain that they don't like Clinton or Trump, respectively ...

I don't put much stock in nascent labels. Certainly not self-affixed ones. I judge you by your (other) words and your actions. Don't call yourself a ___ when ___'s identity is contested and some members of ___ are demonstrably wicked. (Right now the blank gets filled in with "Alt-Right", but "BLM" fit just as well several months back.) Better to just outline a few of your positions most relevant to your critics' concerns. I understand: labels are supposed to make things easy. Saying "I'm a Christian" is meant to save you hours of explanation. The problem is, Christianity has had 2,000 years to define itself and to be defined by others. We all have a pretty good grasp of the core concepts. Things like "feminism" or "Neo-conservativism" are still so fresh -- yes, even century-old feminism, I am very sorry to say -- as to be culturally misappropriable by individuals who misunderstand the group's original intent and who then popularize a new intent in the group's same name.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:43 PM   #3347
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Problem is, that incredibly condescending and condemning final reply, as persuasive and "You tell 'im, bro! " as it may sound to you, isn't helpful. It isn't going to persuade anyone.
I read your whole post, I'm just going to quote this bit. You can't persuade these people, the majority of them. There's no point in even trying, it would actually be wasted breath at that point. Pointing out facts, citing sources, explaining how their sources are misleading or incorrect when they are, it just does not work. There's no argument to be had. The only thing that would change them is life experiences that could change their tainted points of view at that point. Most (not all of course but still) former racists who have admitted wrongdoing and the error of their judgmental ways only did so once they experienced something that challenged everything they believed in and proved them wrong through experience as opposed to argument.

As for the rest of your post, associating with the Alt-Right movement, you may not personally be a racist, but when you go to the Alt-Right subreddit and see masses of upvoted comments that are very anti-semitic, some praising Nazi beliefs, and fairly often a casual drop of racist slurs (all upvoted), you are going to be associated with that. And the group is a fringe movement anyway, so there in actuality aren't a large number of alt-righters. However, based on the few narratives the group pushes, they essentially are a re-branded white nationalist/racist group, like a KKK-lite, and their most prominent spokespersons themselves say as much or don't disagree with the sentiment. An example of just one article re: Richard Spencer, the individual who coined the term 'alt-right' - who openly admits unabashedly that they are a white nationalist movement.

I don't really know what else to add. It's all from the horse's mouth. If you align your beliefs with the alt-right, you're aligning your beliefs with those of racists. You wouldn't say that someone who claims to be part of the KKK isn't racist just because they uphold their values, and it doesn't necessarily make them racist. If someone told you they were in the KKK, you know that by default they are, in fact, racist. I feel as though the same line of logic can pretty much apply here as well.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:40 PM   #3348
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You can't persuade these people, the majority of them. There's no point in even trying, it would actually be wasted breath at that point.
Alright. But if that's the case, then what is the point of that final reply? If not a misguided attempt at persuasion, it can be nothing else but shameless dick stroking, no? That's my problem with condescending replies masking as persuasion such as that one -- if you're not here to persuade, then stfu and gtfo. Either be quiet or else, when you do open your mouth, try to fix things. His post? It doesn't fix things. It pours fuel on the fire of the Alt-Right movement. It legitimizes, in their view, their self perception as victims of an intolerant radicalism out of the left. All for the glory of his three-inch throbby, this fuckwad worsens the situation. No. Fuck off with that shit. If you're trying to persuade, okay, good on you but you need practice. If you're not trying to persuade, then just fuck off. Those of us who aren't racist and think racism is bad, we already know racism is bad. That's a given. "1 = 1," man. We're already aware that this group is a haven for white supremacists. It's just been brought up in this very discussion thread (i.e. the Reddit discussion thread) not but two posts ago. We don't need you to come in here on your fucking fedora of a mount and "M'redditors" us with your ego-stroking mouthwash, okay?

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Pointing out facts, citing sources, explaining how their sources are misleading or incorrect when they are, it just does not work. There's no argument to be had. The only thing that would change them is life experiences that could change their tainted points of view at that point. Most (not all of course but still) former racists who have admitted wrongdoing and the error of their judgmental ways only did so once they experienced something that challenged everything they believed in and proved them wrong through experience as opposed to argument.
This is something I've given quite a bit of thought to myself, with a whole host of domains. (People who are militantly anti-vaccination, people who are anti-GMOs, people who espouse political views which fly in the face of high school and collegiate biology ...) I honestly can't say I disagree with you here. I uncomfortably agree with it. As in, I wish it weren't true but I've long believed myself that there's no comparison between rhetoric and experience. Experience moves people in ways that rhetoric, in my experience, simply hasn't been able to.

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As for the rest of your post, associating with the Alt-Right movement, you may not personally be a racist, but when you go to the Alt-Right subreddit and see masses of upvoted comments that are very anti-semitic, some praising Nazi beliefs, and fairly often a casual drop of racist slurs (all upvoted), you are going to be associated with that.
This is exactly my point. In case it wasn't clear: I was basically saying,
@Mozz Don't label yourself "alt-right" unless what we perceive as the label's baggage you perceive as a perfect encapsulation of your worldviews.

@UPN Don't jump down Mozz's throat just because he's chosen to label himself as "alt-right". Give the man a chance to express his personally held views before you write him off as something he very well might not be.

@deo Wasn't it you only a few short years ago who proudly wore the #GAMERGATE badge? And would you even be caught dead doing so today? Understand that labels, particularly young labels, can change their meaning in the blink of an eye. Give the benefit of the doubt to a long-standing member of the community who seems nice, is generally polite and articulate, and who then surprises you by labeling themselves part of a movement you consider to be morally abhorrent.
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:17 PM   #3349
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@deo Wasn't it you only a few short years ago who proudly wore the #GAMERGATE badge? And would you even be caught dead doing so today? Understand that labels, particularly young labels, can change their meaning in the blink of an eye. Give the benefit of the doubt to a long-standing member of the community who seems nice, is generally polite and articulate, and who then surprises you by labeling themselves part of a movement you consider to be morally abhorrent.[/indent]
I'm not sure where you drew that conclusion, as I've only brought up gamergate once or twice on the forum as a whole, and I don't believe I ever aligned myself with it publicly, at least not on UPN. A quick search of the forums shows this appears to be the case, though there could be a post I simply don't see right now.

I don't recall ever sharing this on UPN, so maybe you're mistaking me for someone else, but either way, for the sake of clarification, I actually did support Gamergate for the first 3 months or so of its inception, mainly as a direct pushback to the inflammatory 'Gamers are dead' slew of articles that was published. On top of this, I had been advocating for transparent gaming journalism for years, ever since the infamous GameSpot Kane & Lynch 2 drama that ended with Jeff Gerstmann being fired. However, I stepped back and analyzed the movement's origins fairly quickly and realized the entire thing only exploded following a shamefully misogynistic witch-hunt of a female game developer based on accusations that she slept with a game reviewer, all which started because her ex-boyfriend angrily demonized her (and the community held her more accountable than the reviewer himself, anyway). So, as I said, I bailed the fuck out of that very early on, and I regret having ever aligned with it, however briefly. Still confused as to how that info got out there, unless you are mistaking me with another UPNer, or I'm completely missing the post in which I mentioned this, but /shrug

For what it's worth though, I have not called Mozz an Alt-Righter yet, nor have I accused him directly of being racist, because that would be dumb. However, Mozz replied to Rangeet with "I really don't think you know dick about what the 'alt-right' is." Quite frankly, as much as Rangeet frustrates me from time to time, I'm pretty much done with the attitude problems from all guilty parties. Mozz's response offered no rebuttal, nothing conduscive, other than to attack Rangeet. If he felt personally attacked because, and I don't know if he is either way, but if he felt attacked because he considers himself part of the Alt-Right, then he should have said something more substantial and relevant than "I really don't think you know dick about what the 'alt-right' is."

And if I have to be honest here, I'll just get it out there for the record I guess. I have a hard time giving the benefit of the doubt in general to someone who has frequently joked about pedophilia, even in his own signature. He'll probably think that's lame of me, but I think it's pretty lame of him. It's distasteful, and while there are plenty of places for that humor, I personally feel this board is not one of them. This of course is off topic, but something that has begun irking me more and more, so I guess I'll get it out there.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:07 PM   #3350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoise View Post
*Posts Vox Day link to prove the alt-right isn't racist*

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uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Is it racist to think that it's good for America and Europe that white people maintain majorities? I guess it is? Do I believe that the USA would be objectively better (say, by using metrics such as per cap GDP, crime rates, and the like) if the US was majority white vs majority spanish/black? Yes.

And yes, I know the current demographics of the country, and all of the projections over the next hundred years.

There is an incredibly large canyon between alt-right beliefs and actual Nazis, so whether i believe in half or all of those tenets, I do feel that any nationalistic views are getting thrown in the "Nazi" dumpster. It's the same thing when anything to the left of Bill Clinton is labeled Communist as a means to discredit.
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