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Old 11-25-2014, 12:37 AM   #1
RealMrGame10
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Ferguson Unrest

For those of you who don't know, a lot of crap has been going down in the United States lately. One of the most recent of these events is the shooting of an African-American young man by the name of Michael Brown. Here's the part that's really unfortunate though. This shooting was by a local policeman named Darren Wilson. He claimed that Brown had been acting suspiciously/threateningly. There is a lot of evidence to the contrary. In fact, there is almost no doubt that Brown was on his knees begging for mercy as Wilson continued to shoot him. Earlier today (November 24 for you time zoningly challenged), there was a huge trial, and protestors flooded the streets while the police were armed with stuff similar to that of the military. Darren Wilson was not indicted for "lack of evidence" or something. This is really sort out of the blue for this forum, and I understand that many of the people on this forum don't have to care. And I'm almost positive I'm breaking some rule with this because I really have no idea what I'm doing. But this happened. And it was tragic. And I'm still extremely upset over this. And I thought maybe we could discuss this a bit.
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Old 11-25-2014, 01:18 AM   #2
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I don't think the Ferguson police force is as abusive as police forces in the past that have initiated similar militarized responses to protests (like Berkeley during the Vietnam War). The violence makes it hard to sympathize with the protesters. I understand that there's a "distrust" between the poor black community and the white police force, but that's really more of a cultural problem than an issue of legality.

Just because someone shares one's religion, nationality, ethnicity should not be reason to trust them. Those are little more than brands, a substitute for real information. Bernie Madoff was able to swindle a bunch of rich people by appealing to their sense of Jewish camaraderie. Don't buy into that!
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Old 11-25-2014, 01:23 AM   #3
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And I promise that's not what's going on. It's just extremely upsetting to me because it's a bit of a shock to my sheltered lifestyle. Perhaps I am being too emotional about it, but it just makes me really, really sad to see something as terrible as this happening in this age. I'm still in high school, and they spend a lot of time teaching about similar events as though the problem were fixed. This event has kind of made me think about that more critically than I'm accustomed too.
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Old 11-25-2014, 01:29 AM   #4
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Humans have been killing one another since the dawn of time over the stupidest thing. It's pretty naive to have something like this be a shock to the system. The issue here is that it might seem silly that he wasn't indicted (it was) but for an issue that's been heavily broadcasted and polarized, its very difficult to believe eye-witness sources. I don't doubt that the shooting was racially charged, nor do I doubt that Micheal Brown wasn't doing anything wrong at the time, but the fact of the matter is that its the court's decision, and eye-witness accounts are spotty at best even under the best of circumstances.

On the police issue, that's normal. A large crowd of protestors showed up. Seeing as this isn't an anti-violence rally, its prone to mob behavior and so there needs to be heightened security. What happens if there is a scene at the courthouse? What if they storm in? That's taking a bad situation and making it spiral out of control. The issue is not whether abuse of this power exists (and yes, it does), the issue is what happens if this power isn't there, and its almost never pretty.
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Old 11-25-2014, 01:38 AM   #5
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One thing I do think is about Wilson's protocol. My understanding of security guards is that on an order of priorities, their clientele should be protected at all costs, and then self-preservation should follow after that. Given this, it's always struck me as strange that police officers (who wear bulletproof vests all the time) would shoot out of self-defense. Shouldn't the job description basically entail that Brown's life was more important than Wilson's own? Perhaps the presence of all those witnesses were part of the motivating factor, but it's always struck me as curious.
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Old 11-25-2014, 01:41 AM   #6
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Unless I'm mistaken, Wilson was a police officer and not a security guard.
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:17 AM   #7
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https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.document...-volume-24.pdf

This is the Ferguson decision in its entirety. Read it at your leisure. I'm sleepy and full of angst over your needlessly inflammatory title.

All I'll say is that nobody is truly sheltered. If you want to learn, information is available for free everywhere. You live in an age where that is possible. Just...make sure that what you're getting is facts. Most mass media these days is just opinions.
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:19 AM   #8
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But I mean, if that policy is in place for security guards, and not for police, why shouldn't it be the same for police, too?
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:35 AM   #9
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Security guards are hired in order to protect a property or person, police officers are hired to enforce the law. They aren't the same.
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.document...-volume-24.pdf

This is the Ferguson decision in its entirety. Read it at your leisure. I'm sleepy and full of angst over your needlessly inflammatory title.

All I'll say is that nobody is truly sheltered. If you want to learn, information is available for free everywhere. You live in an age where that is possible. Just...make sure that what you're getting is facts. Most mass media these days is just opinions.
I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone with my title or commentary on the situation. All I wanted was to see what you guys thought. Again, I'm relatively new to the community of UPN, but it seems to be a place where people have very different and unique opinions than the general media. That was actually kind of the point of this thread. To get... Say... A second opinion, if nothing else. I'm probably equally as tired and full of angst, which may be what led me to say such things as I did. Again, I'm really sorry for that. *sigh* I'm feeling self-conscious as crap right now. I never seem to be able to say the words that'll get my point across effectively. But I hope none of you think that I'm simply going off of emotions and opinions. That would be:
A) Honestly, pretty condescending and B) Not true in the slightest.
What really inflamed me is that I've tried to remain objective about this and look at it from both sides, and nothing indicates to me that there's more than one side to it. This case gets progressively worse the more is revealed about it, even that which is objective. To answer the question of my "sheltered life," that was just an explanation of why this case affected me as much as it did. That's not to say I didn't research it. I actually did. To be honest, I usually advocate not letting opinions or the mass media affect judgment at all. I really do hate that. But I really don't see how this could go any other way. I thought maybe you guys could offer some different perspectives I had never considered. That's a specialty of this forum, and I love it. But again, regretting the title and the OP.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:38 AM   #11
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We all do things we...well, "regret" might be a strong word for something so minor. "Wish we didn't do" might be more accurate.

I'm really getting incoherent and should not be on the internet but essentially my long rambley post is: it's not anyone's fault. nobody's in control of this crazy train we call humanity, nobody is responsible for anything that happens to it. just do what you can to make everyone's life a little bit better.
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:58 AM   #12
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I'm always kinda bemused when people think that smashing up, setting fire to and looting each others places of work is a good way to protest against people who have nothing to do with what they're smashing up. Congratulations on alienating any halfway decent human being who might've sided with you, people of Ferguson!
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Old 11-25-2014, 07:08 AM   #13
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All I have to say is this: institutional racism.
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Old 11-25-2014, 07:20 AM   #14
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What else are they going to do? When was the last time a peaceful protest did anything, anywhere?

Not that I'm completely condoning their actions, because mob protests always turn ugly and have these people who're just out their to fuel their love of destruction. I'm saying that I understand the position.

Because the police in America are a problem. It doesn't even matter if they actually are a problem or not. They're completely mistrusted by the majority of the population. That's something that needs to be dealt with. And honestly, they're not helping themselves by showing displays of power when that's exactly what people hate.
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Old 11-25-2014, 07:30 AM   #15
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What else are they going to do? When was the last time a peaceful protest did anything, anywhere?
US civil rights movement, Gandhi's independance movement, the East German peacful revolution that led to its democratisation and reunificiation with West Germany. Just off the top of my head.

To be perfectly honest; a jury with access to far more information than any of us have didn't find this officer guilty, and we're all picking and choosing which of the contradictory reports to believe based on nothing more but our own personal biases. No-one here has literally any reason to strongly believe one side over the other. I happen to agree that it mostly likely was a case of a racist cop, but none of us have reason to believe that beyond our own personal biases in who to believe.

If these rioters hadn't acted in such a reprehensible manner I might've sided with them. As it stands they're ruining innocent peopes lives and livelihood and achieving precisely nothing. It's the 2011 England riots all over again - back then I agreed with pretty much everything the rioters stood for up until the point they said "and therefore, let's be massive dicks to people who have nothing to do with this".
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:05 AM   #16
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For those of you who don't know, a lot of crap has been going down in the United States lately.
One of the problems with catch-all threads is that people who weren't around for the discussion don't know that it took place or that it was there. Here you go.

If people take issue with this thread's title, and if people take issue with half of the Feeguson conversation being in one thread and half of it being in another (that one I do mind), then we can always ask a mod to splice out the Ferguson posts from the American politics thread into their own thread, call it "Ferguson" or similar, relocate the thread here, and merge the two threads together. The new thread would have the title of the temporary thread and we'd have all the posts together in one place.
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:19 PM   #17
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>Rangeet and SoS commence America-bashing, parroting buzzwords from other sources

I know you regret the title already, but this is the reason the title was regret-worthy.

I finished reading Wilson's testimony. Jesus fucking Christ on a stick.
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:27 PM   #18
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What else are they going to do? When was the last time a peaceful protest did anything, anywhere?
RANGEET YOU ARE FROM INDIA. COME ON.
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:43 PM   #19
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What else are they going to do? When was the last time a peaceful protest did anything, anywhere?

Not that I'm completely condoning their actions, because mob protests always turn ugly and have these people who're just out their to fuel their love of destruction. I'm saying that I understand the position.

Because the police in America are a problem. It doesn't even matter if they actually are a problem or not. They're completely mistrusted by the majority of the population. That's something that needs to be dealt with. And honestly, they're not helping themselves by showing displays of power when that's exactly what people hate.
This entire post makes me w̟̰e̴ḛ̢̱̹͓̩p̞̱̺̠̩̼̙͟ b̸̡͙̦̟̦̰̖̘̩́ḽ̨̨̻͍̲̞̞̗̦͔̤̦̙̗̠̯̝o̡̠̖͎̳̹͖̣͔͉̯̜͔̙̩̦͢͢ ͍͎ơ̞͕̦̺̥͇͔̩͕̥͉̣̝̘̰̕͜͢ḑ̵̶̜̪̼̜̬͕̫̀͠
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:44 PM   #20
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You just had to do it, didn't you.
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:52 PM   #21
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You just had to do it, didn't you.
short answe̫̭̩͜r̳̘:̜̠̹̜̜͕́ ̗͖͝y̤̥̩̮è̙͓s̲̭̤͇̩͓͡
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Old 11-25-2014, 10:24 PM   #22
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RANGEET YOU ARE FROM INDIA. COME ON.
Well thanks a lot for affirming; the last time a peaceful protest did something was 1989, which was a quarter of a century ago. Before that was 1947, which is two-thirds of a century ago. If you want to play those odds, feel free being on page 5 of your local rag

By the way, Gandhi said "When there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." His movement also came on the back of and during a whole lot of very much violent protests, including multiple scenarios(for example, BBD) which would have been considered terrorism to the British at the time. Don't dance on this line with me, I very much know where I stand on it.

Look, this particular protest was a shitty one to start off with. Nobody was even close to being in the right. Only people who were decidedly in the wrong.

But I disagree with those who blame the fact that the protests are violent. I agree, though, that the target of that violence is bullshit. The man who owned the Walgreen's is a victim. Everyone who got their cars or windows or whatever smashed or burned is a victim. That's innocent people who had nothing to do with anything.

But if you think this wasn't a completely normal reaction, you really don't know how human beings work. And also the actual protestors are repeatedly affirming that the rioters arrived separately and the groups have nothing to do with each other. But let's just ignore that fact I guess.
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Old 11-25-2014, 10:55 PM   #23
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But I disagree with those who blame the fact that the protests are violent.
I'm not sure what you're saying here, you mean those who are criticizing the protest for being violent? Why wouldn't/can't we do something like that?
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Old 11-25-2014, 11:09 PM   #24
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Just because it's a normal reaction to be violently angry doesn't mean it's a proper, just or civil one. Arson on a store owned by a person who just happens to live in the same place as a controversial incident is not bringing justice, only creating more strife.

>And also the actual protestors are repeatedly affirming that the rioters arrived separately and the groups have nothing to do with each other. But let's just ignore that fact I guess.

This is sort of a good point, though. A lot of civil rights movements have had a lot of problems classically with violent or off-message hangers-on, and in the environment of today with sensationalist media and "news" channels dedicated to a certain bias, it's really easy for extremists or just plain old opportunists (which I imagine is generally what the Ferguson rioters are) to get mixed in with the people actually seeking civil social change. It's a tough thing to deal with noawadays and it's ruining a lot of progressive movements, IMO.

EDIT: Also I changed the title to something more neutral, taking a cue from the Wikipedia article.
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Old 11-25-2014, 11:23 PM   #25
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By the way, Gandhi said "When there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." His movement also came on the back of and during a whole lot of very much violent protests, including multiple scenarios(for example, BBD) which would have been considered terrorism to the British at the time. Don't dance on this line with me, I very much know where I stand on it.
Nonviolent protest is even farther from cowardice than violence is. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to those you fear. It takes a lot less to shoot them.
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