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Old 12-04-2011, 06:27 PM   #276
lilboocorsola
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I mentioned in the Penguindrum thread that I already watched the episode yesterday, but wasn't really sure what to make of it so I waited for your opinions first. Interesting to hear it actually was a filler.

Spoiler: show
Surprised Caster didn't show up either and just sic Cthulu on the kids and police anyway. I thought Kariya's bugs at the end where his. I honestly didn't expect a happy ending for the children this time - guess the only way to shock the viewers now is to not murder the innocents.

I'm confused now as to exactly how far away from Fuyuki Tokiomi sent his family. Aoi's driving at the end seemed to indicate you'd need a car to travel back and forth, yet Rin seemed to manage the trip easily within a day. Did she take a train or bus to get there? Or is the city within walking distance of Rin's school? (Maybe she just spread wings and traveled at the speed of plot.) Is it the same school she went to before (as implied by the fact she seemed to have friends) or did she transfer? Was the empty seat Kotone's or Sakura's?

When I first saw Kotone's hairstyle, my immediate thought was that she might be a young Taiga, but of course that'd be rather impossible. ^^;

Regarding why Rin never mentioned this even to Shirou, I think it also begs the question why she later hesitated during the similar situation that took place at their school when Shinji activated the life-sucking barrier. It's not like the people were obviously dead or bloody in either case. Guess kids are just more courageous/spontaneous?

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Old 12-04-2011, 08:12 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by YUKI.N View Post
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I thought Kariya's bugs at the end where his.
They were his. Caster sicked a tentacle-worm thing, I said. Kariya's were the locust-mosquito things, the ones we've seen in the OP. Never said otherwise. ^^;

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I honestly didn't expect a happy ending for the children this time - guess the only way to shock the viewers now is to not murder the innocents.
Perhaps so. I still don't like it. It turns out ...

Spoiler: show
... that the book had Rin being more helpless / less "I'm Super Loli!" and that things did end poorly. Specifically, her friend died.

I think they changed things up (a) because if the Japanese otaku are anything like the annoying lolikon fans over here on this side of the Pacific, then ufotable definitely heard their cry for "MOAR LOLI RIN! MORE LOLI ILYA! MORE LOLI SAKURA! MORE LOLIIIIIIIIIIIIS! " and obeyed. -_-; And also (b) because, like you said, this was the only way they could keep surprising you. This latter bullet point may have been anyone's decision but I'm banking on it being another of ufotable's, much like letter A would be if true.

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I'm confused now as to exactly how far away from Fuyuki Tokiomi sent his family. Aoi's driving at the end seemed to indicate you'd need a car to travel back and forth, yet Rin seemed to manage the trip easily within a day. Did she take a train or bus to get there? Or is the city within walking distance of Rin's school? (Maybe she just spread wings and traveled at the speed of plot.) Is it the same school she went to before (as implied by the fact she seemed to have friends) or did she transfer? Was the empty seat Kotone's or Sakura's?
I'm pretty sure that the empty seat was Kotone's. I doubt that Sakura was allowed to even attend elementary school. She probably started going to school in middle school and very probably went to a different middle school than Rin (assuming the city has more than one school system). IIRC she made a point of wanting to go to the same high school as Rin because [stuff I forget] in FSN. Could be wrong about that though. Obviously Sakura's main motivation would have been to go to whatever school Shirou was in. ^^; As for the distance question ...

Spoiler: show
I would think that the house she's staying in is closer to the city than the Castle Einzbern, sure, but still farther away from the city than most of the suburbs we ever saw in FSN. That stated, you have to remember that Shirou was able to make the trip either to or from the castle on foot and within 12 hours (b/c before sunrise or sunset) ....... although usually he took a taxi cab to the edge of the forest or (in the case of no taxi cab) some servant (whether it was Saber or {spoiler} or {spoiler}) would carry him out of the forest and back to his house. So I dunno, you could still make a case for it seeming like a plot hole. Me? I didn't notice it, and I don't really think of it as a plot hole. Even if a kid went missing in Lafayette proper, people would get into their cars and drive around calling out for the kid. So I didn't think much of Aoi's taking the car. Seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

If you want to talk plot twists, what's really funny is that, given that this is the magical NasuVerse, you'd think that Tokiomi could have used magic of some kind to locate either his daughter or the compass she was carrying. Kind of surprising that Aoi had to go about on car and foot looking for her daughter. ^^;

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When I first saw Kotone's hairstyle, my immediate thought was that she might be a young Taiga, but of course that'd be rather impossible. ^^;
Same! lol And I came to the same realization, too! ("But then they'd be the same age, Talon, and we know that isn't true ...")
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:47 PM   #278
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As for the distance question ...

Spoiler: show
I would think that the house she's staying in is closer to the city than the Castle Einzbern, sure, but still farther away from the city than most of the suburbs we ever saw in FSN. That stated, you have to remember that Shirou was able to make the trip either to or from the castle on foot and within 12 hours (b/c before sunrise or sunset) ....... although usually he took a taxi cab to the edge of the forest or (in the case of no taxi cab) some servant (whether it was Saber or {spoiler} or {spoiler}) would carry him out of the forest and back to his house. So I dunno, you could still make a case for it seeming like a plot hole. Me? I didn't notice it, and I don't really think of it as a plot hole. Even if a kid went missing in Lafayette proper, people would get into their cars and drive around calling out for the kid. So I didn't think much of Aoi's taking the car. Seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

If you want to talk plot twists, what's really funny is that, given that this is the magical NasuVerse, you'd think that Tokiomi could have used magic of some kind to locate either his daughter or the compass she was carrying. Kind of surprising that Aoi had to go about on car and foot looking for her daughter. ^^;
Well, I guess what really triggered a disconnect for me was that I always assumed Tokiomi sent Aoi and Rin far, far away. Like, maybe even to another country.

Spoiler: show
What further fueled this impression was speculation I mentioned earlier about whether Kiritsugu would go about kidnapping/threatening families for ransom. I figured if the loved ones are still within driving distance, does that really make them any safer from surprise attacks? Anyone could just sneak off and grab 'em while the Master's back was turned. I would think it would be more dangerous and straining to have to keep an eye on them all the time from afar (yet at a close enough proximity to danger to warrant surveillance). Whereas I'm sure Kiritsugu and Iri can rest easy knowing probably no one would bother making a plane trip all the way out to Russia just to go after their daughter.

As for why Tokiomi didn't use magical means to find Rin, maybe he just didn't know she ran off. I thought Aoi might've been trying to hide it from him unless/until she confirmed Rin really was in danger and needed his help. So far he doesn't strike me as the type to get unustly angry at his wife or children, but he does possess a stern, intimidating aura. After all, he coldly gave Sakura away to the Matous like she was nothing. And plus he did summon Gilgamesh as his partner...
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:33 PM   #279
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Well, I guess what really triggered a disconnect for me was that I always assumed Tokiomi sent Aoi and Rin far, far away. Like, maybe even to another country.

Spoiler: show
What further fueled this impression was speculation I mentioned earlier about whether Kiritsugu would go about kidnapping/threatening families for ransom. I figured if the loved ones are still within driving distance, does that really make them any safer from surprise attacks? Anyone could just sneak off and grab 'em while the Master's back was turned. I would think it would be more dangerous and straining to have to keep an eye on them all the time from afar (yet at a close enough proximity to danger to warrant surveillance). Whereas I'm sure Kiritsugu and Iri can rest easy knowing probably no one would bother making a plane trip all the way out to Russia just to go after their daughter.

As for why Tokiomi didn't use magical means to find Rin, maybe he just didn't know she ran off. I thought Aoi might've been trying to hide it from him unless/until she confirmed Rin really was in danger and needed his help. So far he doesn't strike me as the type to get unjustly angry at his wife or children, but he does possess a stern, intimidating aura. After all, he coldly gave Sakura away to the Matous like she was nothing. And plus he did summon Gilgamesh as his partner...
Given the name of the family Rin and Aoi were sent to stay with, the Zenjous, something which was revealed in Episode 01, I never doubted that they were still inside Japan. As for whether they were near Fuyuki or not, again, I never doubted that they were still near the outskirts of Fuyuki. No idea why. I just assumed he didn't send his family all that far away.

Spoiler: show
You're right that it would make sense to, and I've really no idea why he didn't other than (perhaps) confidence that, with Assassin on his side as well as one of the most powerful servants in the history of the Grail Wars (Archer), he would handily win this war.

Another possibility to consider is that, in sending his family away from the war site, Tokiomi was only concerned with protecting them from damage that might be caused by Servants who would invade his home. Think about it like with Shirou in FSN, when Lancer and Caster kept breaking into the Emiya house. Servants will do whatever it takes, including breaking and entering and waging war on the premises, if it means taking out other Masters. Perhaps Tokiomi was less concerned that someone would go after his wife and children -- perhaps amongst gentlemen magi it's commonly understood that family are off-limits? -- and perhaps he was more concerned with the very real possibility that they would wind up as collateral damage if someone attacked the Tohsaka mansion in an attempt to kill Tokiomi.

A third thing you've got to consider is: nobody else bothered to send family away. Kiritsugu left Ilya behind, yes, but he kind of had to. (I think the Einzberns are incredibly possessive of Ilya and would not respect Kiritsugu's desire to live alongside her as her father unless he were to win the war, thereby absolving her of any need to serve as a Grail vessel.) Otherwise ...
  • War 4: Zouken doesn't even bother to flee. Apparently he feels perfectly safe right where he is. We know that Kariya is living in random alleys, but do the other six Masters know that? Who's to say one of them wouldn't stage an attack on the Matou mansion in an attempt to eliminate Kariya? Yet Zouken apparently isn't the least bit worried.
  • War 5: once again, Zouken isn't worried at all. Sure, you can argue that he needs to be on hand since he has to pretty much hold Shinji's hand and he also has to be there to monitor Sakura and make sure she doesn't go out of control, but he doesn't bother to take refuge in the hills during the war or anything. He just hangs out in his mansion like he's always done these past 200 years. ^^;
  • War 4: rather than send that poor grandma and grandpa away under the hypnotized impression that they're taking a month-long vacation in Hawaii or something, Waver just lives right alongside them. No concern for the possibility that someone may find out where he is and destroy them and the home in an attempt to kill him.
I began to list off other examples but I felt I was stretching things thinner and thinner. I guess the meat of my argument rests with Zouken and the fact that he doesn't run for the hills during War 4. The point then being ... perhaps if Zouken feels confident enough that he can escape becoming collateral damage during a Grail War even though he lives in Ground Zero and is the father / potential guardian of one of the combatants that Tokiomi probably feels that sending Rin and Aoi to another house a few residential subdivisions away is good enough.

Pretty sure the Einzberns are German. ^^; Could be wrong, but ... pretty sure Ilya's not in Russia. (Yes, Ilya and Iri most definitely do dress like traditional Russian aristocratic women. ^^; But I'm pretty sure they're a German family.)

As for what you said about why Tokiomi may not have used his magic to {do stuff}, that's a good point. "Like Servant, like Master" indeed. He does seem pretty stern. Perhaps you're right.

EDIT: Well I'll be damned. Looked up "Fate wikia zenjou" to confirm I was spelling it correctly and ... well, click the spoiler box if you want to learn who the Zenjous are.

Spoiler: show
Apparently Aoi's maiden name was Zenjou, a.k.a. the Zenjous are Rin's mother's side of the family. No idea why Rin would speak of them in the third person "the Zenjous" rather than saying "Grandma and Grandpa" or something, but whatever.

Given that Kariya and Aoi grew up together, and given that Kariya most certainly grew up in Fuyuki City, it seems likely that Aoi is a born-and-raised Fuyuki native, too, and so, given that she's a Zenjou, the Zenjous would be in Fuyuki City.

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Old 12-04-2011, 10:04 PM   #280
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Didn't catch the name of the family they were staying with. Neat to learn their background.

As for Waver and Zouken...

Spoiler: show
For all his studies, Waver is an inexperienced amateur when it comes to the Grail War. Plus he's just a kid, so I imagine he wouldn't have thought that far ahead. Rather, I somewhat doubt he realized the amount of danger that was involved at first, treating it more as a game. Now that he's seen the damage Caster has done, I'm sure if he wasn't prepared for it before, the real possibility of dying has sunk in by now. He'll probably take more precautions to protect himself, and I do wonder if he'll feel a new sense of responsibility to extend that protection to the innocent bystanders he's gotten involved. Maybe even feel somewhat guilty for it.

Zouken is... Zouken, you know? I assumed he just didn't give a crap, or he knew he was powerful enough to fend off any attackers on his own. He strikes me as the kind of stubborn old fart who refuses to budge from a house that's about to be torn down. "This is MY property, you kids are the ones who should git off it!" *releases the dickworms*


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Pretty sure the Einzberns are German. ^^; Could be wrong, but ... pretty sure Ilya's not in Russia. (Yes, Ilya and Iri most definitely do dress like traditional Russian aristocratic women. ^^; But I'm pretty sure they're a German family.)
Oh, really? ^^; I always thought they were Russian. My bad.
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:48 PM   #281
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Blame Nasu for mixing Russian clothing and architecture (Castle Einzbern looks like it's ripped straight out of St. Petersburg with all of that gilded white interior [1][2][3]) with a German family name and a desire to argue that magic has a long history in Germany (what? ). Ilya's grandfather's nickname, Acht, is the German word for "Eight." It seems to indicate that he is the eighth family head since the family's establishment during the Middle Ages. That brings us to another thing which, afaik, Nasu's never really come out and declared one way or another, and that is that ...

Heaven's Feel end-of-the-path stuff:
Spoiler: show
It's not really clear to what extent any humans are left in the so-called "Einzbern family." Well, to me, anyway. Is the family a collection of homonculi who continue to make other homonculi? Or is the family an actual human family that communicates to the outside world via homonculi? I'm pretty sure it's the former. I think what happened is, in their quest for immortality (much like the Makiri), the Einzbern found themselves transformed into something else. In Makiri Zouken's case, he made a deal with the devil (figuratively speaking) and allowed himself to be devoured by worms which in turn he could control and use to animate other corpses and continue existing. In the Einzberns' case, I wonder if the founder(s) of the clan, in their pursuit of immortality, researched homonculi and eventually became homonculi themselves. This certainly would seem to be the case given that Justica is revered by existing members of the family today as something of a supreme family member yet we know her to be a homonculus. Likewise, Iri and Ilya are homonculi, as are Ilya's maidservants. The only person who might actually not be a homonculus is Acht, but I'm betting that even he's a homonculus. So it kind of begs the question: where did all the Einzbern humans go? ^^; Were there ever any Einzbern humans? Or did the clan come into being during the Middle Ages the very day that the clan's founder transferred his soul into a doll (i.e. he had mastery over the Third Magic)? And is it because of this very fact that Einzberns played around with moving their souls between vessels but that, somehow, they lost the knowledge of how to perform the Third Magic and so began the family's transformation into one that consisted entirely of soulless dolls (rather than dolls animated with human souls, as in Emiya Shirou's HF case).
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:28 PM   #282
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The Zenjous are Japanese. I was under the impression they lived in Old Fuyuki, the Japanese section of town or across the big river. They're definitely not in another city, Fuyuki is actually pretty huge.

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Heaven's Feel end-of-the-path stuff:
Spoiler: show
It's not really clear to what extent any humans are left in the so-called "Einzbern family." Well, to me, anyway. Is the family a collection of homonculi who continue to make other homonculi? Or is the family an actual human family that communicates to the outside world via homonculi? I'm pretty sure it's the former. I think what happened is, in their quest for immortality (much like the Makiri), the Einzbern found themselves transformed into something else. In Makiri Zouken's case, he made a deal with the devil (figuratively speaking) and allowed himself to be devoured by worms which in turn he could control and use to animate other corpses and continue existing. In the Einzberns' case, I wonder if the founder(s) of the clan, in their pursuit of immortality, researched homonculi and eventually became homonculi themselves. This certainly would seem to be the case given that Justica is revered by existing members of the family today as something of a supreme family member yet we know her to be a homonculus. Likewise, Iri and Ilya are homonculi, as are Ilya's maidservants. The only person who might actually not be a homonculus is Acht, but I'm betting that even he's a homonculus. So it kind of begs the question: where did all the Einzbern humans go? ^^; Were there ever any Einzbern humans? Or did the clan come into being during the Middle Ages the very day that the clan's founder transferred his soul into a doll (i.e. he had mastery over the Third Magic)? And is it because of this very fact that Einzberns played around with moving their souls between vessels but that, somehow, they lost the knowledge of how to perform the Third Magic and so began the family's transformation into one that consisted entirely of soulless dolls (rather than dolls animated with human souls, as in Emiya Shirou's HF case).
They're homunculi. Humans couldn't manifest the Third Magic, so they made homunculi to do it for them.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:43 PM   #283
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I said Justica was one. -.- Don't correct me on mistakes I didn't make. [/pet peeve]

EDIT: Thanks for the answer though.

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Old 12-04-2011, 11:45 PM   #284
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Regarding Tokiomi's sternness(?):

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I was really surprised he didn't even scold Rin for poking around in his spellbooks, and he seemed extraordinarily patient in teaching her magic. However, seeing him treat one daughter so nicely only makes me more uneasy while remembering what he did to his other. =/
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:15 AM   #285
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Haven't watched Episode 10 a second time yet, but I did just have it open in the background and when I glanced over at it, it was when Tokiomi was sending Rin and Aoi away for their own safety. Tokiomi's wording (quoted from UTW's translation) may be what influenced Yuki to think what she thought:
Quote:
And for that, it's better if both of you leave Fuyuki City.
So it would certainly seem to be the case that even if the Zenjous they are staying with live relatively close to Fuyuki City, they're probably on the outskirts of Fuyuki overall. Close enough that Rin can still attend school somehow, but far enough away that Tokiomi would choose words like these.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:52 AM   #286
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It's not like Tokiomi doesn't care for Sakura at all, he's most similar to the Habsburgs who would instill their children in other countries to claim them as political allies. Giving away Sakura is analogous to marrying her off, what happened to her afterward isn't his business, nor does it really concern him. But he does want her to succeed, because it reflects highly on himself.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:02 PM   #287
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I'm impressed with the art direction in F/Z, I just watched Episode 9. The use of lighting to show the torn apart bodies that Waver stumbled on was an effective way of depicting how horribly grotesque they were. We all know Urobuchi loves guro, so this was a nice way of side stepping the brutality.

I find I don't agree with Talon on the music, though. Though Kawai Kenji had an uneven mix of good, bad and mediocre tracks (with an ear for picking the better tracks from the game to use) they're a lot more memorable and exciting than the music in F/Z. It's orchestral stuff, which is +1 over the synthesized tracks Kenji used, but generic background orchestral stuff, so there's little distinction between the tracks.
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:37 PM   #288
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OH... MY... GOD...

Episode 11 was... AWESOME.

If F/Z could keep stuff like this up, f yeah I would consider giving it 9/10. The entire episode represented everything I've been wanting to see from the Grail War's premise and more. Just... Wow. This is a episode I'd want to re-watch over and over if I had the time.

Spoiler: show
Rider kicks things off by dropping in uninvited to Saber's abode and casually proposes a drink between fellow Kings. This opening alone fully grabbed my attenion, since it's utterly hilarious in the context of a war yet totally befitting of Rider. It's a nice change of pace from the fighting, and a perfect opportunity to showcase the Servants' personalities and how they would interact in a more friendly (yet still competitive) setting. I've always wondered if, were the Heroic Spirits able to coexist in the Throne of Heroes, they'd simply hang out, drink, and play games while boasting or arguing about who was the greatest/most accomplished like old fogies in retirement.

As if the banter between two Kings wasn't promising enough, Gil shows up to surprisingly honor Rider's former request, and you know this gathering is going to be good. Frankly an off-the-record social makes sense, and portrays a greater sense of realism considering there have been cases in history where enemies have temporarily ceased combat to host a civil chat together, whether with hidden agendas or not. I got the feeling Rider might've been tactfully using the banquet as an excuse to scope out information just as much as he was for merrymaking. Acting friendly is a great way to throw off your opponents, and it seemed like Saber was so flustered by the gesture she let down her guard quite a bit. Even Gil was very loose with his words, providing Rider enough clues to guess his identity - whether he cared to hide it or not to begin with.

With three self-proclaimed Kings who possess(ed) very different ideas on what makes a good ruler, both in fiction and likely in real life, the kind of moment I've been waiting for has arrived: A clash of not just the weapons of different eras and regions, but of views belonging to that time or culture, or specifically the influential figure him/herself. Things really boiled to a head when Rider called Saber out on her folly for believing a leader should sacrifice herself for her people, instead of leading them by show of strength. Unlike in FSN, this scene really made me feel Saber's pain and horrifyingly realize with her the potental weight behind that mistake. Shirou may have lectured her to think more for herself, but he's just a kid who's never experienced battle or leadership, what does he know? Plus he's a hypocrite by nature of being similar to his summoned Servant. Iskander knows better than anyone what he's talking about, so his advice is worth listening to, even if Saber nor I don't necessarily agree with it.

The political debate alone would have made the episode for me, but then the Assassins show up. All I have to say about what happens next is HOLY SHIT MOST EPIC THING EVER. I think I understand now how combining 4th War Rider's Noble Phantasm with 5th War Archer's would create an unstoppable force. Rider's NP didn't turn out to be exactly within the lines of our thinking, but in this case I think you could accurately say the greatest defense is simply a very strong offense.
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:45 PM   #289
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I could easily imagine 5th War Archer feeling the same for 4th War Rider as Maarek Stele did for Baron Soontir-Fel in Tie Fighter. Stele was never fully aware of why he was so devoted to the Empire, and became pessimistic as its warring factions disintegrated the law and order it once imposed. But Fel, a gifted leader with strong philosophies, was able to give Stele the direction and purpose he had been searching for.

Not only would the two have worked well together with their complementary abilities, they would have got along well together too.

Yay, my favourite part of the novel is here!
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:47 PM   #290
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I've been F5'ing Commie and UTW all day. How have you already seen it?
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:54 PM   #291
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I've been F5'ing Commie and UTW all day. How have you already seen it?
I don't pay attention to the sub groups. ^^; I just pick the first stream that comes up. Doubt any loss of translation quality diminished the epicness in any way.

I really wonder now how Rider could be defeated, and by whom?

Spoiler: show
My guess would be Archer...
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:17 PM   #292
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Nico subs are the only ones out. According to 8thsin, it's not a bad translation to go with for F/Z, so I bit the bullet and downloaded it (though I have yet to watch it).

@Corsola - it's revealed in FHA. There are some parallels with Shirou v. Gilgamesh (in UBW), Berserker v. Gilgamesh (UBW) and Archer v. Berserker (Fate).
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:54 PM   #293
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Nico subs are the only ones out. According to 8thsin, it's not a bad translation to go with for F/Z, so I bit the bullet and downloaded it (though I have yet to watch it).
On the contrary, Nico's were the lowest grade he awarded. Then Hatsuyuki, then Commie (these two being almost identical), and finally UTW. Sure, he's probably UTW-biased, but still.

Just got Commie's. Will watch later. Yuki's kinda sorta already spoilered me on what--

Yuki: You guessed!

On what--

Yuki: YOU GUESSED!

... on what happens. ^^;
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Old 12-10-2011, 06:53 PM   #294
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On the contrary, Nico's were the lowest grade he awarded.
Derp.

What was I looking at? =_=

*deletes*
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Old 12-10-2011, 09:25 PM   #295
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Just finished Episode 11. (Credits are playing as we speak.) Excellent episode. Some have complained about the exposition-heavy Fate/Zero, but I think this exposition is where Fate/Zero is strongest and most similar to the FSN video game. Not only that, but this episode coupled fabulous exposition with superb action, providing ample service to both camps. A really, really good episode. I would have probably found it one-thousand times more epic had I not been previously spoilered by my own hand four years ago as to what the likely identity of Rider's Noble Phantasm was, but alas, what's done is done. Still: a very good episode.

Just read Yuki's comments. Piggybacking on what she said ...

Spoiler: show
The Gathering of Kings:
I enjoyed this. I felt that Rider really gave Saber too hard a time and I actually find Saber's philosophy very admirable. That stated, maybe there is truth to Rider's words. I didn't take away from it the "different philosophies from different eras" bit that Yuki did but, thinking back on that, that's pretty cool. What I'd love to learn later is whether or not NasuVerse Iskander matches up with the teachings of Aristotle IRL or not. Because Alexander was obviously instructed by none other than Aristotle, so it'd be neat to see if the line of reasoning he takes in the novel at various places, including this wine-drinking summit, fits with Aristotelian teachings or not.

Poor Saber:
Yeah. This is something I'm going to have to go back and re-watch to fully absorb. It was powerful but it also came on so strong and so fast that I didn't know what had hit me. Probably like the real Saber that night. ^^;

Rewatch the episode:
Definitely. I found myself wanting to pause at least a dozen times throughout this episode but I stayed my hand every time because I was just too eager to see what would happen next. I'm definitely rewatching this one right away. Whether it'll be Commie two times in a row or my UTW viewing will depend entirely upon whether UTW's released by the time I submit this post or not.

Rider's Noble Phantasm:

Did not expect it to be the artwork I showed Yuki several months ago. ^^; I'm glad she can't read Japanese very well, though, or she might have spoilered herself. I restrained myself from reading it (phew!) so I too didn't know that they'd be his Noble Phantasm. That stated, I knew that they'd show up in the story at some point, so the only possibilities were:
(1) in a flashback,
(2) as apparitions, or
(3) as part of Rider's Noble Phantasm
It would have been much more badass if I hadn't even known, though. I think this took a lot of the thunder out of the scene for me. Also: I knew the slaying of the Assassins was going to happen the moment it became clear that this was the episode in which Rider summoned his Noble Phantasm --


-- because from the book, I already knew that his Noble Phantasm involved an army. (I just didn't know that it involved his top generals too. ^^; )

I'm guessing that the first artwork is from the retooled books (i.e. the six-volume set) whereas the second artwork is 100% from the original books (i.e. the four-volume set). I definitely prefer the retooled art. Iskander looks a little creepy in the original one, and his army looks a hell of a lot more badass in the retooled version.

As for Yuki's question about how it's going to be possible to defeat Rider's epic Noble Phantasm ... that, I'm afraid, I think I spoiled myself on just this year when I greedily (and foolishly! ^^; ) read the text that goes along with this one image that I'd been wondering about for some time. So I think I have the answer to that one. Will PM Doppel to confirm.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:30 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
What I'd love to learn later is whether or not NasuVerse Iskander matches up with the teachings of Aristotle IRL or not. Because Alexander was obviously instructed by none other than Aristotle, so it'd be neat to see if the line of reasoning he takes in the novel at various places, including this wine-drinking summit, fits with Aristotelian teachings or not.
Oh gosh, I actually have expertise in this. But it's so archaic (2005) I'd completely glossed over that detail.

It's difficult to tell if Iskander's philosophy is in line with Aristotle, because we don't know much about Macedonia's government in TYPE-MOON. Real life Alexander didn't follow his teacher's philosophy all that well, and I'd wager Iskander to not be much different. His swagger suggests "what's good for me is good for my people" and that's pretty Anti-Aristotelian. I think Aristotle would admire Saber's desire to serve for the good of her people, but would be disgusted by how she's doing it.

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Poor Saber:
Yeah. This is something I'm going to have to go back and re-watch to fully absorb. It was powerful but it also came on so strong and so fast that I didn't know what had hit me. Probably like the real Saber that night. ^^;
The funny part is, 90% of the pre-Christian or Pagan Heroic Spirits subscribe to Iskander's viewpoint. Gilgamesh even commented on it earlier during his discussion with Kotomine, a Roman Catholic Priest. Cu Chulainn admitted the same in FHA. The seculars have a hard time understanding the abstract ideals of subsequent generations.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:37 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
It's difficult to tell if Iskander's philosophy is in line with Aristotle, because we don't know much about Macedonia's government in TYPE-MOON. Real life Alexander didn't follow his teacher's philosophy all that well, and I'd wager Iskander to not be much different. His swagger suggests "what's good for me is good for my people" and that's pretty Anti-Aristotelian. I think Aristotle would admire Saber's desire to serve for the good of her people, but would be disgusted by how she's doing it.
To be clear, I would enjoy it either way, just so long as Nasu (or Gen) explained it satisfactorily.
The same as his teacher's teachings: I could go for this because it would show that Nasu/Gen did his homework and that Iskander's beliefs reflect what the ideal Aristotelian ruler would do.
The opposite of his teacher's teachings: I could really go for this because:
(1) I agree that IRL it's probably what Alexander did (i.e. did not follow Aristotle's advice to a tee) and
(2) it makes for the much more delicious tragedy ("Oh, sensei! I should have listened to you! If I had, then perhaps I would not have wound up dying here as I am today! ............ but alas, no! I have no regrets. For had I listened to you, then never would I have come to be the man I am today.")

Either outcome is cool. I just would like to see it explored. Doubt I'll get to have it, though, all things considered.

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The funny part is, 90% of the pre-Christian or Pagan Heroic Spirits subscribe to Iskander's viewpoint. Gilgamesh even commented on it earlier during his discussion with Kotomine, a Roman Catholic Priest. Cu Chulainn admitted the same in FHA. The seculars have a hard time understanding the abstract ideals of subsequent generations.
Interesting. I don't remember such a point being brought up with Kotomine and Gil. Are you sure you're not thinking of the book? In the anime, I don't remember Gilgamesh telling Kirei "I don't understand you Christians" or some such. Maybe I need to go back and re-watch that episode. (IIRC that scene was at the end of 3 or 4, right? The wine-drinking scene?)
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:56 PM   #298
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And you led me to believe you had no idea what Rider's Noble Phantasm was. >_< Our speculation never once suggested something like this would happen at all.

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Spoiler: show
The Gathering of Kings:
I didn't take away from it the "different philosophies from different eras" bit that Yuki did but, thinking back on that, that's pretty cool.
I don't know if their views are necessarily representative of their origins, but in general I look forward to scenes that emphasize "when cultures collide" - or even empathize over aspects shared in common.

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Spoiler: show
Rider's Noble Phantasm:
I already knew that his Noble Phantasm involved an army. (I just didn't know that it involved his top generals too. ^^; )
Spoiler: show
What I found most impressive about this scene was the fact that I believe Waver pointed out that each soldier was a Servant unto his own, not just apparitions or copies of the genuine articles like 5th War Archer's blades. All of them were proud Heroic Spirits in their own right, yet were still so loyal to their King that they would follow him in the afterlife. Showing proof of great leadership right after giving Saber that speech... Must've been like a double slap to the face for her. ^^; Recalling the scene from FSN when Saber stood alone on the hilltop while her army whispered dubious words behind her really made this jab at her pride all the more painful. Saber herself seemed to recollect that moment, quoting the same line uttered by one of her knights who left the Round Table, claiming the King didn't understand the people's feelings. (Foreshadowing?)

In terms of animation, I think the most powerful moment was when the female Assassin tremblingly lifted her knife to try and fend off the army while her comrades ran away. ...Then she realizes the futility and just lets it drop, standing still to await her doom. Seeing those shoulders sag in acceptance and defeat... Couldn't help but feel some pity for her.

Another subtle instance I liked was the first tell-tale gleam of the armored boots as the army comes marching in. Perfect choice of opening shot. Especially after I had just been deceived by the cheesy fade to white and sketch lines, which made me think "Oh no, don't tell me they're gonna hide Rider's Noble Phantasm by saying he obliterated them in an explosion." Even after the light cleared to show the desert, the emptiness of it seemed rather unimpressive compared to UNLIIMITED BLADE WORKS, given that I had no idea what was about to happen.

Comparing the look of Rider to the original book illustration, I'd also say they improved his expression. ^^; And dat smile at the end. Not smug or triumphant, but rather warm and nostalgic, methinks. Like he's saying to Saber, "This is what I've accomplished. My greatest treasure is not gold or riches, but the respect and support of my subjects despite failures. And I'm proud of it, as you should be." Just superb art direction all around.

Oh, and not related to visuals, but I loved the Assassins' little bout of stifled laughter at Rider's invitation to join the banquet. XD Oh, if they only knew what was coming to them...
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:47 PM   #299
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Either outcome is cool. I just would like to see it explored. Doubt I'll get to have it, though, all things considered.
I don't think it was. Rider's a pretty simple character, all things considered. He has less depth than Diarmuid but a far bigger influence on the plot and other characters.

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Interesting. I don't remember such a point being brought up with Kotomine and Gil. Are you sure you're not thinking of the book? In the anime, I don't remember Gilgamesh telling Kirei "I don't understand you Christians" or some such. Maybe I need to go back and re-watch that episode. (IIRC that scene was at the end of 3 or 4, right? The wine-drinking scene?)
It's the wine drinking scene.

Gilgamesh doesn't understand the Christian view of self-denial as a virtue. Nobody from the ancient world seems to. One could say he can't empathize with modern humans at all. The ultimate goal of both Christians and Sorcerers is eternal life, but both seek it through different venues. Gilgamesh is famous for his pursuit of eternal life after Enkidu died, and his realization is that one's legend is where true immortality can be found. But Gil has the most famous legend in history, save perhaps Heracles', and he never (nor his people ever) had to struggle like how modern plebeians have to. So one can imagine how he finds Tokiomi dull, he's not only been there/done that, Tokiomi's doing it in a really abstract manner.
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Old 12-11-2011, 12:44 PM   #300
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Animation Debacle Discussion. Click at your own risk.

Spoiler: show
Seems that there's ...
  • a lot of rage on MyAnimeList ...
  • but not too much rage on Commie's or UTW's blogs ...
that the animation budget in Episode 11 was so crappy whereas the animation budget for the lolikons' Princess Loli Rin filler episode looked like it was a Kara no Kyoukai-quality OAV. But because the hatred seems to be so high on MAL whereas it's pretty scarce on Commie and UTW's blogs, I'd be curious to know:
  1. what the demographics of those two domains are. (E.g. are Commie and UTW lolikon-rich? and so the lolikons are maintaining a low profile this week because they know their desires fucked the rest of the fandom over in the ass? Or is it MAL which just happens to be lolikon-depleted? and that it's easy for people there to rail on and hate on lolikons because they're not present to defend themselves?)
    And ...
  2. what do the Japanese fans think of all this? Are they raging hard? Are those who are raging in the minority or the majority? Does ufotable care? Are they even listening?

Many fans have pointed out, very probably correctly so, that a lot of the cut material will show up in the Blu-Ray releases. Anything we heard in a sneak peek but which didn't make the final cut for the episode, for instance, will appear on the BD, they're saying. In fact, it's remarkably probable for this episode in particular because this was the first episode since the one-hour series premiere to open without showing any opening credits. It just dove straight into the action for the sake of time. So clearly, clearly they had to make cuts to make sure the bare minimum important dialogue and action made it into the episode. Because they even had to cut the opening credits! (Though ... some are pointing out that if this was the case then they should have seen that coming two weeks ago and instead of wasting time with The Adventures of Loli Rin they should have had her brief scene be the first half of Episode 10 while having the first bit of exposition be the second half of episode 10 and then, to keep things flowing well together, have had all of what would have then been episode 11 air back-to-back as part of a second hour-long special. Even if it meant "Sorry, no Fate/Zero this week ... but we will be airing a back-to-back two parter next week!" But what's done is done ...)

In any event, the point is, we may see scenes on the BDs that didn't make the cut for TV. Scenes like Saber destroying Archer's cup. Or like Archer offering his own views a little more on kingship. But what I'm concerned about is, and what a lot of fans on MAL are concerned about is, they probably won't fix much of the animation atrocities. There were simply far too many to fix. If the reason they were poor in the first place was LOL LACK OF BUDGET then why should we expect them to now magically have the mad cash necessary to go back and re-animate from scratch all of those fuck-ups? There's very little likelihood of this imo, even if there's a high likelihood that we'll see new scenes added.

Now, one last final (if long) thing about the loli stuff: if you've watched Ilya's Castle, a special for Carnival Phantasm, then you'll know that there's a line where they tongue-in-cheek poke fun at the divide between lolikons and traditional guys who like well-developed women. I'll quote the dialogue for those who haven't seen it, UTW translation:
(Ilya fires her BerserCar's laser beams and knocks out Rider)
Ilya: Ahaha, serves you right! Mature women have no worth nowadays!
Rider: What was that!? You just don't understand the allure of mature women, you lolicon doll!
Ilya: Shut up! All Japanese people are lolicons! Take this and die!
It's meant to be playful and funny but it skirts around a very deep rift in the FSN fandom between the Rider-category fans and the Ilya-category fans. Admittedly, lolis are a big deal in Japan and many otaku do love them. Ilyasviel is, without a doubt, one of the best characters in the entire Fate franchise and she's a darling character and, of course, she also happens to be a loli. So of course lolikons will adore her and praise her merits to the high heavens. That stated, I always felt that FSN kind of went against the otaku grain, appealing to the more traditional man with a female cast that was largely mature and, as evidenced by Sakura and Rider, appealed to men who like large-breasted, curvy, adult women. So I thought the line in Carnival Phantasm was kind of a throwaway line meant to tickle lolikons' funny bones since they don't get much love in the FSN universe.

But now ... now that we've seen the Loli Rin made-for-TV episode that completely changed what happened in the book and expanded it by like three-fold, and now that we've seen the paid price for that decision in Episode 11's at-times abysmal animation ... I have to wonder if:
  1. I was wrong to assume in the first place that FSN is not for lolikons or that Fate's management are themselves not lolikons. You'd think that characters like Len or Ilya were just token loli inclusions given that the rest of the cast is all adult in Tsukihime and FSN, but then again, it's pretty clear how much Nasu must have loved Ilya -- I mean, how could you not? -- so now I'm sort of wondering. Takeuchi is probably a safe bet as a fan of the adult women, as is Gen ... but what about ufotable? The gentlemen entrusted their brainchild to ufotable, and now I'm left wondering if ufotable either:
    1. doesn't have members who are huge lolikons and who basically seized control of production and said "we're making a loli Rin episode, goddammit. For the glory of Princess Rin! "; or else
    2. caved in to fandom pressures, and if there are a great many more lolikon fans of FSN and F/Z than I had previously thought, and if the fans' demand for "MOAR LOLIS" were so loud that ufotable foolishly paid them heed and now we've all paid the price for the lolikons' fucking retarded greed.
  2. there won't be more of a clash between the two fan camps in the future, with the anti-lolikons being all like "YOU RUINED OUR SHOW, MOTHERFUCKERS! ;_;" and the lolikons being all "FUCK YOU, ASSHOLES! GET OFF OUR BACKS!"
I dunno. To see it on MAL, it certainly seems like that kind of civil war is imminent. But to see it on Commie or UTW, you would think I'm making Mt. Everest out of a one-inch tall anthill. So who knows. Who the fuck knows. Do you know? Have any insight on what the Japanese are thinking or saying right now? Then report in. 'Cause I'd love to hear it.

All of that stated ... I don't think the animation was universally bad.
  • Rider's Noble Phantasm scene could have looked better, but thankfully the weaknesses in that scene were mostly his own face, something we've had plenty of chances to see well-animated elsewhere. At least they got the other parts well-animated.
  • One of the most important moments in the episode, where Rider is really deconstructing Saber and a dark shadow begins to pass over her as the moon goes behind a cloud, and she begins to have flashbacks of her final battle while Rider presses on ... that part was nicely animated. Not spectacularly so, but very nice. Par for ufotable's ordinarily high standards and well above many of the episode's other scenes.
Do I notice the blemishes? Absolutely. Do they detract from my viewing enjoyment? Unfortunately, they definitely do. (Can't unsee them and several of them are pretty god-awful.) But do they transform what should have been a 10/10 episode into a 7/10 or a 6/10 or a 4/10 or even a 1/10 for me? Of course not. I'd say ...
- non-spoilered and well-animated, I'd have given this a 10/10
- being as I was spoilered, had it been well-animated I'd have given it a 9/10
- as things stand, I'd probably give it an 8/10
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