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Old 05-13-2010, 11:00 PM   #1
Doppleganger
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(Il)legal immigration.

Hold your stock arguments for the time being, I'm bringing in a novel approach to this timeless classic of a talk.

One of the great rebuttals against illegal immigration is it's unfair to legal immigrants. This is basically moral argument, that illegals are immorally cheating the system that legal immigrants had to go through to be approved. But, beyond simple conceptual fairness, what I recently learned is the USCIS is apparently adjusting foreign quotas based on fluctuations of the expected rate of illegal immigration into the United States.

What this means is, if the USCIS believes illegal immigration to be on the rise, a mechanism exists to allow it reduces the number of legal immigrants eligible each year entering the country as compensation for the rise in illegal immigration. I don't know how they're determining this, seeing as the census isn't going to document illegals, but apparently indirect information comes from the patronization of government services.

I believe this, not simply the moral argument is the real bread and butter against illegal immigration, because rather than a social/philosophical debate where there is no right/wrong for proponents of either side of the debate, this one can be chocked up to stupid laws and regulations.

Here, legal immigrants are being directly harmed by the illegals, they're literally being upstaged by very coincidental, unreliable information at best. It increases the incentive to enter the country illegally (original incentive being educated people or those with families in America getting priority), although it would be challenging for non-Mexicans and non-Canadians (lol) to actually sneak in undetected if they weren't allowed in legally in the first place.

The illegals themselves are not harmed or do not benefit from this punishment on the legal immigrants, seeing as they're breaking US laws to begin with. So as far as fairness goes, this goes beyond simple morality and is really a social-political punishment for people for something completely outside of their control.

But on the flip-side, if the USCIS didn't do this there would be more total immigrants overall per year, which could impact economics in a number of ways I won't go into, since there are both positive and negative modifiers from how I see it.

So the debate - does the decrease in legal immigration to the US/year outweigh the injustice of denying otherwise qualified applicants naturalisation, simply because the US has an illegal immigration problem and one easy way of regulating it is to curb total immigration through legal channels?
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:53 PM   #2
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/14...ration-debate/
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:08 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
So the debate - does the decrease in legal immigration to the US/year outweigh the injustice of denying otherwise qualified applicants naturalisation, simply because the US has an illegal immigration problem and one easy way of regulating it is to curb total immigration through legal channels?
I think you went on something of a tangent before finally reaching your point. And tangent or no, it was a rather large one at that, no offense. Your question is also phrased in a very confusing way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what you're asking us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon's impression
Is it just for the United States government to make changes to the number of legal immigrants allowed per annum to immigrate into the United States?
That's all you're asking, right? As a tack-on to the question,...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon's impression
[the above]... as a means to counterbalance the changes in annual illegal immigrant influx?
In other words, the Pro side would argue:
"The status quo is not right. We should not limit the number of legal entrants based on the number of illegal entrants. Whether 30 illegals cross the border or 3,000,000, we should always allow the same number of legal immigrants each year provided they appear (and they will) and provided they meet the legal requirements for naturalization."

And the Con side would argue:
"No, the status quo is the best we have. We cannot give up the ship! Our state only has room for ~1,000,000 new arrivals each year. So if in 2009 we had 868,344 illegal immigrants who took up residence in our states and if in 2010 we are forecasting the arrival of approximately 880,000, we cannot allow the same number of legal immigrants this year as we did in 2010. If we do, there will be too many people in the state. It will lead to an increase in unemployment, in welfare costs, etc. Even if the legals are well-meaning people, if they cannot find jobs, then they're no better to us than the jobless illegals are."
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:30 PM   #4
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It is as you say.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:44 PM   #5
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We should build a bridge across the entire width of the US-Mexican border and have it go all the way to Canada, that way the Mexicans will bypass us entirely. Then we just conquer Cuba, this way, once they are annexed into the USA, they won't be illegal immigrants as they go to Florida.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:52 PM   #6
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Better yet: make it a one-way bridge, and build another one-way bridge to Cuba, too, and you've just created yourself a perpetual motion machine. Time frame for perpetuity = 1 calendar year. During the summer, people move north to Canada where it's more temperate. During the winter, they move to Cuba where it's more tropical. The energy to do so comes from their bodies, which comes from food, which comes from the sun and geothermal energy, which are (for all intents and purposes) limitless and renewable resources for energy in the 21st Century.


Last edited by Talon87; 05-15-2010 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:14 PM   #7
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Well, Cuba is Communist. No one wants to go there. But if conquer it, we can end Communism.
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:27 AM   #8
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All that's left is China...who also needs to laon us more money!
Irony or just plain sad that we'll be owned by a Communist country sooner or later?
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:42 AM   #9
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Well, Cuba is Communist. No one wants to go there. But if conquer it, we can end Communism.
We did try to conquer it for a long time, and in the final few years before Castro, it was to prevent Communism.
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Old 05-28-2010, 06:39 PM   #10
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You guys are a bit too serious in responding to what I say.
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Old 05-29-2010, 09:49 AM   #11
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Why so serious? Sorry couldn't resist.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:37 PM   #12
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You guys are a bit too serious in responding to what I say.
That's what I'm here for.
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:54 AM   #13
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I don't really think illegal immigration affects the average joe at all, really. I mean, if you have even a high school diploma, you can probably get a better job than what illegal immigrants tend to work (meatpackers, telemarketers, etc.). If you're really worried about job competition from people who can hardly speak English, then I think there's a very simple solution: finish high school. Then there goes the problem of illegal immigrants.
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Old 07-27-2010, 07:23 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by EarthKwake View Post
I don't really think illegal immigration affects the average joe at all, really. I mean, if you have even a high school diploma, you can probably get a better job than what illegal immigrants tend to work (meatpackers, telemarketers, etc.). If you're really worried about job competition from people who can hardly speak English, then I think there's a very simple solution: finish high school. Then there goes the problem of illegal immigrants.
Unemployment is fairly high at the moment, and as long as illegal immigrants are considerably cheaper than minimum wage, potential employers will continue to attempt to pay less. I spent some time working with an illegal back in the states, and I could see why employers would want an immigrant over a regular worker. If you ask an immigrant to come by on his day off and mow your lawn, he'll be there. If you ask the same of a legal employee and you're overstepping the bounds.

tl;dr- illegal immigrants get employed in a lot of places. I remember having tremendous difficulty even getting a job interview before I landed my first job, and I do think it's an easily defensible position that it would be far easier to get entry level jobs in most of the minimum wage world if not for IIs.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
We should build a bridge across the entire width of the US-Mexican border and have it go all the way to Canada, that way the Mexicans will bypass us entirely. Then we just conquer Cuba, this way, once they are annexed into the USA, they won't be illegal immigrants as they go to Florida.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Better yet: make it a one-way bridge, and build another one-way bridge to Cuba, too, and you've just created yourself a perpetual motion machine. Time frame for perpetuity = 1 calendar year. During the summer, people move north to Canada where it's more temperate. During the winter, they move to Cuba where it's more tropical. The energy to do so comes from their bodies, which comes from food, which comes from the sun and geothermal energy, which are (for all intents and purposes) limitless and renewable resources for energy in the 21st Century.

image
Not if I have anything to do with it. We're stuck with enough of your problems as it is; we don't want another one.
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