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Old 10-22-2010, 12:28 AM   #251
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Yeah, that's part of the problem right there.

After playing Remember11 I think KID learned from their mistakes in Ever17 by not allowing play from the more "enlightening" perspective immediately. When you play as Takeshi, there's no hint of a greater mystery at large permeating the entire LeMU incident - sure, LeMU has its secrets, but Kid sort of draws one's attention away from those secrets and toward himself. People who go on Takeshi's Route after that and get a fairly different experience wonder about all the crazy behind-the-scenes things brought up in Kid's Routes, and why they don't play as big a role.

I think playing as Kid bites the entirety of Sora's Path, since it was devoted to Takeshi spending a lot of time with her. I'd agree with Talon's statement that I'd have recommended Sora's Path first, because it would have granted access to the Sora-Tsugumi Bad End, probably one of the climactic Bad Ends in the Infinity Universe (in terms of emotional impact).

I have to agree Tsugumi has more depth to her than Sora (especially so during Coco's Path), though Sora is very different in focus. I was surprised Talon wasn't as big on her given he's professed love and awarded gold-list status for a certain anime, but I can speculate as to why. Incoming tangent -

I've said this before, but I think to be a top-tier visual novel, a company needs to add themes or a message to their story. Most VN's I've played don't have this, or they have mixed messages or a lackluster one. Chaos;Head is a textbook example. Heavy themes, imagery and symbolism are more in the realm of literature than the general audience VNs would appeal to, but a few stand out. KID productions are among the elite in this regard.

Another example is Saya no Uta, an extremely graphic H-game based in part on Lovecraft and Osamu Tezuka's Phoenix. The themes overpower everything else in the novel, so much that the characters beyond the main two and the antagonist of the moment don't matter anymore.

In this sense, I believe Sora's Path was pretty heavy into her own themes and her relationship with Takeshi probably struck many as incongruous, compared to the more relatable Tsugumi. I'd even go so far to say that Sora is more theme than character, but it was a theme that really resonated with me, so I found as much value in her as Takeshi did.

Also, feel free to ask questions, Corsola! I've become almost a pro at answering Ever17 questions without giving anything major away. :P
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:42 AM   #252
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I do intend to pursue Sora's path after Tsugumi, since I find her intriguing due to her identity, and I'm already warming up to her personality as Takeshi interacts with her. Even the early scene in Kid's chapter where Takeshi appears to be drinking by himself struck a chord with me (he was talking to Sora, right?). I felt really bad ignoring her in favor of Tsugumi, when it came down to it. =/ Next time...

I have a question about Tsugumi's path. I ended up nearly killing Tsugumi by messing up the valve puzzle (I thought I was supposed to unscrew both first, then tighten them). I was afraid I got a bad end at first, but she's alive and awake in the infirmary now. Am I still in the clear to reach the good end of Tsugumi's path?

And this is just random speculation, but does "Blick Winkel" have anything to do with "Rip Van Winkle"? I don't know who he is, but I've heard of the name, and he came up in You's and Kid's conversation at one point.

On a random note, for some reason I find Kid absolutely adorable when I play as Takeshi (not in that way). ^^; I dunno, he seems much more carefree from an outer perspective. I just love how he approaches everything, from his amnesia to kick-the-can, with a nonchalant attitude: not super-optimistic like You or Coco, but not completely cold and indifferent like Tsugumi.

I also keep getting major déja vu vibes from this game for some reason. Plus I just learned about retrograde amnesia in my college psych class yesterday, and bouyancy last week in chem. o.O; It's like these VNs are helping me review. XD
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:46 AM   #253
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If you're talking about how Tsugumi got a deep wound in her thigh, then I don't think it'll matter. She got hurt when I got it right, so it's an inevitable event.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:23 AM   #254
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Tsugumi is supposed to get injured. It provides the lead-in to a major mystery about her. Press onward!

Blick Winkel has little if anything to do with Rip van Winkle.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:33 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post

And this is just random speculation, but does "Blick Winkel" have anything to do with "Rip Van Winkle"? I don't know who he is, but I've heard of the name, and he came up in You's and Kid's conversation at one point.
That's an interesting topic.

In both the English version and original Japanese, Blick isn't related to Rip van Winkel in any way. However, the English localization will at one point use the Rip van Winkle legend in place of an analogous Japanese story, one most non-Japanese speakers aren't familiar with. It adds some confusion at times, but the name similarity isn't much more than a happy coincidence.

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On a random note, for some reason I find Kid absolutely adorable when I play as Takeshi (not in that way). ^^; I dunno, he seems much more carefree from an outer perspective. I just love how he approaches everything, from his amnesia to kick-the-can, with a nonchalant attitude: not super-optimistic like You or Coco, but not completely cold and indifferent like Tsugumi.
Kid is great in Takeshi's Route, though I liked him a lot in You's Path for his ingenuity. He's pretty flustered on the inside in both routes, though.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:05 PM   #256
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That's an interesting topic.

In both the English version and original Japanese, Blick isn't related to Rip van Winkel in any way. However, the English localization will at one point use the Rip van Winkle legend in place of an analogous Japanese story, one most non-Japanese speakers aren't familiar with. It adds some confusion at times, but the name similarity isn't much more than a happy coincidence.
Really? Hm, now I'm curious what the original Japanese story was about. =.

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Kid is great in Takeshi's Route, though I liked him a lot in You's Path for his ingenuity. He's pretty flustered on the inside in both routes, though.
Yeah, I reached the scene where Kid flips out over chicken sandwiches. Poor kid. It's always the quiet ones who break first, huh? *gives him a hug, even though she made Takeshi slap him*

Also... TSUGUMI WHY'D YOU DO THAT TO CHAMIIII??? ;.; *sniff* ...At least he's all better now.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:18 PM   #257
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Yeah, Tsugumi has some pretty dark moments that almost ruin her on one's first playthrough. And then you get further along in her story and you're all like, "... Oh. So that's why she ... oh. "

Once you finish Path 2, you'll realize she loves Chami. Once you finish Path 5, you'll really realize she loves Chami.

As for your Rip van Winkle question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by some weblog Google turned up when I googled the name
The tale of Urashima Taro (or Taro Urashima, in English name order) is an old Japanese fairy tale that's been around in one form or another for hundreds of years. In the story, a man who saves a turtle from a group of tormenting kids is rewarded by being spirited away to an undersea kingdom where he enjoys lavish feasts and various entertainment. Eventually he decides he's had enough, but when he returns home, he doesn't recognize his old village or any of the people there. Things there have changed completely. Upon asking around, he realizes that he'd been away for decades, and all his family and friends have died. He spends the rest of his days in the village as a lonely outsider--a stranger in his own village.
The character of Urashima Keitaro is loosely based on this same Urashima Taro. Hence the recurrent turtle theme in Love Hina -- something I didn't appreciate at the time and wouldn't appreciate until years later upon learning of Urashima Taro myself! Mind you: when I say loosely, I mean loosely. They share in common a name, a turtle theme, a watery paradise theme, and that's about it. (Oh, and I forgot: Otohime Mutsumi shares her name with the princess in the story of Urashima Taro.)

For further reading, here's Wikipedia's page.

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Old 10-22-2010, 02:36 PM   #258
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Also... TSUGUMI WHY'D YOU DO THAT TO CHAMIIII??? ;.; *sniff* ...At least he's all better now.
Man, reading back through the older pages of the thread, I sure bitched a ton. What a wanker. I don't know if I've calmed down or what, but I'm pretty sure I haven't been acting similarly in the Remember11 thread.

"I'm not entire pleased with the Tsugumi ending myself," I write after completing it. You little shit! *hits me* You loved that path! Maybe I've just got rose-colored lenses on now or something. It has been three years, after all.


Tell us where you are, lilblue. It seems like in my older posts, I do a really bad job of keeping the content of my individual posts in chronological order. So while I have located the post in which I first discuss the "holy shit " factor about what Tsugumi did to Chami, I'm not entirely sure that you're that far along in the game. If you are, you're burning through it. (Day 6 of Takeshi x Tsugumi?)
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:57 PM   #259
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Ooh, I read that folk tale once in a children's stories anthology. Hm, Love Hina... That was the first manga I read (or rather skimmed) at the library. Don't remember much of it, but I do recall a flying turtle. XP

And yes, I'm on Day 6 of Takeshi x Tsugumi. Right now everyone's throwing a party. (I've decided to try to avoid reading old posts until after I finish a path.)
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:16 PM   #260
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That's the beauty of this discussion, Talon! It is a stone-worn chronicle of adventure and discovery into the deep blue sea from the ever-so optimistic year of 2007.

@Corsola: I wouldn't have it any other way! It's convenient you're following Talon and BBB's more or less exact path order. I'm determined to have BPK start as Takeshi, just to see what happens.

On the subjects of Japanese legends, there's another one (almost a folk-tale) first mentioned in Coco's Path that's apparently so obscure in the West there were only a handful of non-manga/anime webpages that even mentioned it. The archetype is common knowledge to Japan, but there's very little even today about it in English. It's not even on Wikipedia.

Speaking of that, I wonder if Urashiman's sub project finished?
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:24 PM   #261
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The one about the mermaid tears, Doppel? I don't know that I'd ever heard that story before Ever17 myself. I tried searching for it now in both pure English and mixed Japanese English and got nothing. As for pure Japanese, I got a few random hits here or there. Mangas. Blog updates. And the occasional Ever17 page. But you're right that the way Coco told that story, it sure seemed like it would have been a piece of real-live folklore in Japan.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:46 PM   #262
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Oops. Looks like I got the "Tsugumi-Sora" Bad End. Where'd I go wrong? Should I have waited before rushing into the compression chamber? =/

And up until now I thought TB was referring to Tuberculosis. ^^; So it's a fictional virus in this game?
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:17 PM   #263
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Oops. Looks like I got the "Tsugumi-Sora" Bad End. Where'd I go wrong? Should I have waited before rushing into the compression chamber? =/
What event did you see?

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And up until now I thought TB was referring to Tuberculosis. ^^; So it's a fictional virus in this game?
Yes. Real-world tuberculosis is caused by a bacteria, but Tief Blau is a very lethal virus, quite dissimilar to how actual TB behaves. Transmission is the same, though.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:25 PM   #264
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What event did you see?
The group brought TB-infected Coco to the research lab and put her in the pod (as well as her father, I assume). Implosion starts, Tsugumi runs off, You and Takeshi start coughing up blood, no idea what happened to Kid, everyone dies. The end. x.X
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:30 PM   #265
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The group brought TB-infected Coco to the research lab and put her in the pod (as well as her father, I assume). Implosion starts, Tsugumi runs off, You and Takeshi start coughing up blood, no idea what happened to Kid, everyone dies. The end. x.X
That's the one. Most people get that end when they first play, but certain someones miraculously didn't. There's actually a very, very obscure clue hidden in it, but nobody picks it up except in retrospect.

Unlike Remember11, where one small choice can lead to an immediate bad end, individual choices build up to the Tsugumi-Sora Bad End. You basically have to go back through the game and make very pro-Tsugumi or pro-Sora choices, to build up enough points with the character so that the Tsugumi-Sora Bad End doesn't happen. If you're aiming for Tsugumi's Good End, you should probably comb back through the choices for times you were nice to Sora, and simply not be nice, or be neutral. And in the Tsugumi scenes, be very supportive of Tsugumi.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:53 PM   #266
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Well, shoot. Looking back on my choices (I usually save at each branch), the only one that stands out to me is the very first one, where I could be mean, nice, or neutral to Sora. x.X I picked the neutral one. After that, I was pretty anti-Sora throughout. And it's still not enough? Gah, guess I have to go back to the beginning...

Question: On the second day, is it better to "talk to Tsugumi" or "wait and see what she says"? I notice her response to the former is "You... Are the absolute worst." whereas the latter directs the comment to Takeshi's face. Is there a literal difference, or is it simply a mistranslation? I chose the second option on my first runthrough.

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Old 10-22-2010, 09:33 PM   #267
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I'd go with the first option. It's always best to be pretty proactive when opening up to Tsugumi since she's so very isolated, as you should know from her history. I can't really comment on the difference, I haven't played the game in a long while.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:42 PM   #268
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Okay. Yeah, that's what I thought initially (I tried both options), but got discouraged by the direct insult as a response. Hopefully this will make up for things...
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:10 AM   #269
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See, I have no idea what Doppel is talking about. He makes it seem like getting onto both Tsugumi's path and Sora's path successfully (one at a time) without ever encountering the Bad End is like putting a man on the moon. And yet that's exactly what I did with no second-guesses or dishonest playing or anything. I just answered the questions however I thought I ought to answer them to get Tsugumi. And it worked. Did the same for Sora. And it worked. I have no idea about this "be mean to her" stuff because I don't remember being mean to anybody. Opting to listen to Girl A over Girl B when you're only allowed to listen to one of the two isn't being mean to the neglected girl. And I think that that's all it boils down to in trying to land on either girl's path: you have to be devoted to that girl.

I dunno. Maybe I just got lucky? No way to ever know or to tell that apart from if I was just super-intuitive as to what KID had planned for Tsugumi's Good End criteria.

All I know is, I still have yet to see this bad end.
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:21 AM   #270
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Well, I finally reached the "good end" of Tsugumi's path. Had to resort to a walkthrough though.

Hm... So there's the terabyte disc...

*too tired to come up with questions/comments* *yawn* I'll tackle Sora's path tomorrow...

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Old 10-23-2010, 02:03 AM   #271
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I have no idea about this "be mean to her" stuff because I don't remember being mean to anybody. Opting to listen to Girl A over Girl B when you're only allowed to listen to one of the two isn't being mean to the neglected girl.
That's the problem, I think. Devotion is totally right.

I seem to recall there being an argument between Tsugumi and Sora, and Takeshi is given the option to take one side. The argument favoured Sora, but picking Tsugumi's side = obviously the best way to get in good with her.

Most people couldn't deal with that. They also played honestly, but to play honestly for a lot of them would be to try and minimize conflict in the interest of keeping everyone cooperative to ensure the best chances for survival and escape of LeMU. Most would side with Sora in the argument even if they were trying to go on Tsugumi's Path, and inevitably doom everyone to the Tsugumi-Sora Bad End. An example from an old BBB post -

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Well, I am on day two of Takeshi's route while trying to go for Sora. However, I am having such a difficult time doing anything mean to Tsugumi. Like when they asked me if I should either look for Sora or fix the generator with Tsugumi, I chose to repair the generator with Tsugumi, because I already know that looking for Sora is pointless (I believe that knowledge isn't something I should've used in this case).
"being mean" is perhaps hyperbole, but it gets people in the mindset that if they're focused on one heroine, they've got to take no compromises when it comes to keeping with them. As we've seen with Corsola, it's rather uncommon for someone to go in with the mindset "I'm going to try and romance this girl and learn her secrets". I think that mindset was partially cultivated by going through Kid's Route(s) first, which illuminated the idea that each of the girls in the game had a path where they were the heroine. When I first played the game, I just did whatever, and just got involved with Sora because I was interested in her. Tsugumi's cold front really turned me off at first, that's the kind of guy I am.

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All I know is, I still have yet to see this bad end.
It is pretty horrific.

I think the avalanche Bad End for Kokoro's Path in Remember11 where she laughs maniacally was probably a good equivalent. Of all the avalanche Bad Ends, that was the first one I got, and was the best one in terms of weighing dread on my mind.
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:11 AM   #272
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Most people couldn't deal with that. They also played honestly, but to play honestly for a lot of them would be to try and minimize conflict in the interest of keeping everyone cooperative to ensure the best chances for survival and escape of LeMU. Most would side with Sora in the argument even if they were trying to go on Tsugumi's Path, and inevitably doom everyone to the Tsugumi-Sora Bad End.

"being mean" is perhaps hyperbole, but it gets people in the mindset that if they're focused on one heroine, they've got to take no compromises when it comes to keeping with them. As we've seen with Corsola, it's rather uncommon for someone to go in with the mindset "I'm going to try and romance this girl and learn her secrets". I think that mindset was partially cultivated by going through Kid's Route(s) first, which illuminated the idea that each of the girls in the game had a path where they were the heroine. When I first played the game, I just did whatever, and just got involved with Sora because I was interested in her. Tsugumi's cold front really turned me off at first, that's the kind of guy I am.
Agreed. When I first went into the game, my list of priorities was as follows: 1) Save everybody 2) Uncover the mysteries 3) Romance (partly by nature of gender, but moreover that's just the kind of person I am). I definitely wouldn't have made some of the choices I did had I not known the goal was to focus on a single girl each time.

I don't think there was actually a choice to make during the argument though. However, I believe the "do you know/not know" decisions may have unknowingly played a significant factor, seeing as Archimede's Principle was brought up again at the end of Tsugumi's path. (Although I made the correct choice the first time.) The Tsugumi-Sora bad end was probably due to a buildup of many obscure hints like this, since most of the "wrong" choices I made appeared to have indirect influences on the outcome. And as you saw by my "talk/don't talk" question, it was often hard for me to tell whether I was being "nice" to Tsugumi or not, since she always responds coldly or indifferently no matter what I do.

Breakfast, then playtime~
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:21 AM   #273
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The tsundere paths are always like that. In order to tame them, ya need to smother them in attention. Being insulted or hit as a result of a choice isn't always bad.
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:42 AM   #274
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So, you completed Tsugumi's path?

Spoiler: show

And if you thought that was sad, just wait till you get to Path 5. Tsugumi has been through a lot. You've already seen the top half of her iceberg ... but just wait until you see the bottom half!

I absolutely loved Tsugumi's path. I thought she was the most interesting character aboard LeMU. I thought her Tuck Everlasting dilemma was most fascinating, even if it was not something I had never heard of before. She was physically the most attractive. She was (once you melted her heart) personality-wise the most attractive. (Unlike Mayuzumi Lin in Remember11, she wasn't a psycho bitch.) I just really enjoyed her path. I hope you did, too.

I hope you didn't let frustration with encountering the Bad End after all of that play-time ruin your experience with the Tsugumi path. It sounds like all three of you have ganged up on me, so to speak , in terms of arguing that you had to make choices which you felt you would not have really made in real life had you been aboard LeMU in order to get the good end for Tsugumi. I don't know about that. At least for me, I feel like all the choices I can remember from Tsugumi's path would have been choices I'd have been likely to make if I was trying to get on Tsugumi's good side. She's a girl I'm initially attracted to, I want to get to know her better, I want her to get to like me, and if things go well between us I want us to become a couple. I'm not going to show interest in a less-interesting woman and decline opportunities to get to know the most interesting woman. I'm going to do the opposite. And I did.

And even from a non-romantic point of view, getting Tsugumi to be on good terms with me would have been a crucial aspect of my mission. It's like Yomogi says in Remember11: one person can spell the death of the entire team, and so complete teamwork is crucial. Tsugumi was not being a team player early on in the game. It was therefore crucial that I get her to be. If having to hurt Sora's feelings by siding with Tsugumi in an argument was one of the ways to do that, then so be it. Sora's intelligent. She could probably figure out why I acted the way I did. If not, I could always go and tell her later. But Tsugumi was mistrustful and hotheaded. If I had sided with Sora, even if Sora's argument was the more sound, Tsugumi would have seen that as me being "against" her, and hope of bringing Tsugumi into the fold would have diminished considerably.

I mean, that's the way I look at it. It's hard to know with certainty how we'd really act in this situation since (a) we have foresight when we play either Tsugumi's or Sora's paths (given our common approach to playing You's path first); and more importantly (b) because being for real under water in a sunken theme park is very different from playing as a character in a video game who is in that same position. But to me, I think the difference in our Tsugumi outcomes -- with BBB, Doppel, and now lilbluecorsola forming one team, and me forming another team all by myself -- is not to do with different playstyles but rather with different approaches to the same crisis. I think all four of us probably play this game mostly as we would really do in real life but that the three of you have a different mindset which leads you down Path A, whereas I have my mindset which leads me down Path B. It's like saying, we're both using the same gardening tools but my garden turns out to be very different from your gardens because I have different things I want to grow than what you guys want to grow.

'Cause I remember pretty clearly that when I played Sora's path, I felt like I was now having to make decisions that I'd never normally make. Maybe it's just because I'm too eager to win a girl's heart, I dunno, but I felt like I was really forcing things when I was deliberately indifferent towards Tsugumi and deliberately gushing over Sora.

Last edited by Talon87; 10-23-2010 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 10-23-2010, 11:58 AM   #275
lilboocorsola
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Hm... Since you brought up Remember11, I think that may have something to do with my perception of Tsugumi. Having played Remember11 first, I may have been unconsciously comparing Mayuzumi and Tsugumi. I thought Mayuzumi's expanation for her behavior was really weak, so I guess I didn't really expect Tsugumi's story to be much better. When Tsugumi showed signs of acting like a royal bitch, I felt like giving up sooner than I normally would have. I was pleasantly surprised by the outcome, however, and did enjoy her path. I'll put faith in your word that there's even more to it, and am looking forward to learning the second half.

Like I said, I think overall the difficulty of achieving the Good End has more to do with picking the right answer to the seemingly unimportant questions. Maybe you just had a lucky break, Talon.
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