UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > The Misc

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-14-2007, 08:04 PM   #1
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 12,987
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Nuke the sun?

Kind physics folks,

I heard a historical debate case with the resolution "let's nuke the moon" and the counter plan, "let's nuke the sun" which was perm'd, but the real question is on disadvantages of "nuking the sun" - brought up, number one was "nuking the sun would cause a chain reaction that would have the sun go super nova".

Uhh..don't nuclear reactions occur inside the sun anyway? How would nuking the sun cause a super nova I wonder I wonder? Confirm/deny if you would... >_<;
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2007, 10:48 PM   #2
Lunar Delta
Cascade Badge
 
Lunar Delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hicktown, USA
Posts: 420
Send a message via AIM to Lunar Delta
Re: Nuke the sun?

How would you get a Nuclear missile close enough to the sun in the first place? It would stop functioning before it even penetrated the outer layers.

Anyway, stars are fueled by nuclear fusion, so they're basically very large ongoing hydrogen bomb explosions. Detonating a nuclear bomb inside of a star's colossal mass wouldn't have any effect at all on the star as a whole. How could it?

Supernovae are caused when a very large star runs out of fuel to sustain itself, and all of the star's mass falls inward on itself. When the core reaches a certain density, a shockwave is formed and the matter rebounds outward in a huge explosion. I fail to see how a nuclear bomb could cause all of that.
Lunar Delta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2007, 11:19 PM   #3
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 12,987
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Re: Nuke the sun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek
How would you get a Nuclear missile close enough to the sun in the first place? It would stop functioning before it even penetrated the outer layers.
It wouldn't even reach the sun, let alone penetrate anything. That was brought up as a refutation on the opp's argument, but the "science" of super novae was of grave concern to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek
Anyway, stars are fueled by nuclear fusion, so they're basically very large ongoing hydrogen bomb explosions. Detonating a nuclear bomb inside of a star's colossal mass wouldn't have any effect at all on the star as a whole. How could it?

Supernovae are caused when a very large star runs out of fuel to sustain itself, and all of the star's mass falls inward on itself. When the core reaches a certain density, a shockwave is formed and the matter rebounds outward in a huge explosion. I fail to see how a nuclear bomb could cause all of that.
I agree, the argument struck me as fishy. Thanks for the elaboration.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2007, 01:22 AM   #4
Loki
RIP QinniH
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,195
Re: Nuke the sun?

Disclaimer: I am not a physicist. I am merely using the knowledge I remember from physics class.

I don't see why a missile wouldn't reach the sun. A body in motion stays in motion until an equal an opposite force stops it. If you plan a trajectory correctly, I don't see why a nuclear missile wouldn't hit the target. If your argument is that the warhead would lose function during this trip, then by all means, fine.

Anyway, I think the idea of a nuke hitting the sun causing a super nova was the belief that a nuclear blast would blow away enough of the sun's mass to cause a chain reaction that might result in a super nova, but I highly doubt a nuclear bomb has that much power.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2007, 01:29 AM   #5
Lunar Delta
Cascade Badge
 
Lunar Delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hicktown, USA
Posts: 420
Send a message via AIM to Lunar Delta
Re: Nuke the sun?

How would blowing away a star's mass cause a supernova, when a supernova is caused by the star's mass rapidly falling in on itself? If anything, you'd help to prevent a supernova.

As for the bomb reaching the star, as long as nothing blocked it there would be nothing stopping it from actually getting to the sun. However, it would burn up or stop functioning long before it ever hit the photosphere.

Theoretically, there is no upper limit on how big you can make a hydrogen bomb. If you had a lot of materials and a lot of time, and a lot of advanced technology, you could build a bomb as big as a star. Perhaps then you could destroy one, or at least blow away all of the outer layers.
Lunar Delta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2007, 03:38 AM   #6
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 12,987
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Re: Nuke the sun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoalaDevourer
I don't see why a missile wouldn't reach the sun. A body in motion stays in motion until an equal an opposite force stops it. If you plan a trajectory correctly, I don't see why a nuclear missile wouldn't hit the target. If your argument is that the warhead would lose function during this trip, then by all means, fine.
Lots o' stuff could happen. It could hit an asteroid, burn up, the detonator could fail, there might be another kind of malfunction that prevents the necessary fission and fusion to create the explosion, even if it happened it's not like it could do much damage in outer space, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoalaDevourer
Anyway, I think the idea of a nuke hitting the sun causing a super nova was the belief that a nuclear blast would blow away enough of the sun's mass to cause a chain reaction that might result in a super nova, but I highly doubt a nuclear bomb has that much power.
Outside of another super-nova, nothing would have that much power. We blow our own planet several times over, but not something big like Jupiter, let alone the sun.

...

What Namek said.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2007, 11:39 PM   #7
ajnrules
Boulder Badge
 
ajnrules's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 117
Re: Nuke the sun?

Consider this. A million nukes can fit inside the Earth. A million Earths can fit inside a Sun. A nuke can probably fuck up the Earth's climate, but won't do much to the actual planet. And the Sun? Don't even think about it.
__________________
ajnrules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 03:06 PM   #8
Sylar
Cascade Badge
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: England
Posts: 434
Send a message via AIM to Sylar Send a message via MSN to Sylar
Re: Nuke the sun?

Not really, but kinda relevant. Also, FUNNY.
__________________
Sylar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2007, 08:32 PM   #9
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,548
Re: Nuke the sun?

Not relevant at all: I just signed in to seek help for my video seeking woes, but since I'm here breaking my silence (yet again), I just thought I'd ask how you're doing, Doppel. I don't remember where you live or where your University is located relative to San Diego, so ... anyway.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2007, 02:32 AM   #10
Jamil
Cascade Badge
 
Jamil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the Rooftop
Posts: 496
Send a message via MSN to Jamil
Re: Nuke the sun?

The sun's heat intensity within 10000000 Km or more is such that it can melt tungstan in an instant. If nukes are launched the radioactive materials inside would rise in temperature and be extremely unstable thus exploding in an instant. So we need a nuke with the strongest metal or alloy that actually never existed.
Jamil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2007, 03:42 AM   #11
Lunar Delta
Cascade Badge
 
Lunar Delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hicktown, USA
Posts: 420
Send a message via AIM to Lunar Delta
Re: Nuke the sun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamil
The sun's heat intensity within 10000000 Km or more is such that it can melt tungstan in an instant. If nukes are launched the radioactive materials inside would rise in temperature and be extremely unstable thus exploding in an instant. So we need a nuke with the strongest metal or alloy that actually never existed.
The Sun's corona is incredibly hot, but it is also incredibly diffuse. The bomb would not be burned by it. The surface of the sun is only a few thousand degrees F, so perhaps if the bomb had a tantalum hafnium carbide casing it could make it to the "surface" before failing.

Furthermore, it takes a substantial amount of heat and pressure to trigger nuclear fusion. Simply heating up the materials to high temperatures isn't enough. Nuclear fission is triggered by a chain reaction of free neutrons splitting (fissioning) other atoms, which in turn creates more free neutrons. Simply heating up a piece of uranium or plutonium wouldn't cause it to fission, you need to attain critical mass to do that. And not only that, but you also need a material to reflect the neutrons back inward so facilitate the chain reaction.
Lunar Delta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2007, 04:13 AM   #12
Jamil
Cascade Badge
 
Jamil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the Rooftop
Posts: 496
Send a message via MSN to Jamil
Re: Nuke the sun?

Yes, you are right. I made the 10000000Km tooooo much. BUT:-

"it takes a substantial amount of heat and pressure to trigger nuclear fusion. Simply heating up the materials to high temperatures isn't enough."

You are right here as well but the sun does provide much much much more temperature than scientists have found out. And the temperature-increase and the strength of the casing is enough to rise the pressure to a substantial amount that would make the unstable particles break down eventually before it touches the surface. (Isn't the "surface" actually gas?)
Jamil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2007, 07:54 AM   #13
Lunar Delta
Cascade Badge
 
Lunar Delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hicktown, USA
Posts: 420
Send a message via AIM to Lunar Delta
Re: Nuke the sun?

Quote:
You are right here as well but the sun does provide much much much more temperature than scientists have found out. And the temperature-increase and the strength of the casing is enough to rise the pressure to a substantial amount that would make the unstable particles break down eventually before it touches the surface.
The heat and pressure inside the casing would not be enough to overcome the repulsive force between the hydrogen atoms. There is a reason why a fission bomb is needed to start a fusion reaction in a thermonuclear weapon.

Quote:
(Isn't the "surface" actually gas?)
Yes. That is why I said "surface" instead of just surface without the quotes.
Lunar Delta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 01:56 AM   #14
Jamil
Cascade Badge
 
Jamil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the Rooftop
Posts: 496
Send a message via MSN to Jamil
Re: Nuke the sun?

Let all mortals wait for the Day of Judgement.

Thy Lord shall emerge and Judge who is the Liar.
Jamil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2014, 12:13 PM   #15
116Mike
Pokemon Trainer
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2
Nuke the sun

I realize that this post really old, but does anyone know where one could find this counterplan online?
__________________
Counterplan: The USFG should nuke the sun. Solves 100% of the aff, with a global warming net benefit!
116Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2014, 03:05 PM   #16
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 12,987
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Given the date I think it was brought up in parliamentary debate, so if the plan actually existed it's probably lurking around some MSN Groups or in Usenet, nobody bothered to post it online. This topic and other topics on Google using "nuke the sun" are probably your best resource.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > The Misc


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.