01-06-2018, 10:26 PM | #1 | |
Blades and Butterflies
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spreading my Rot
Posts: 2,772
|
Reassessing the Bond Mechanic
Everyone,
Though I am no longer acting officially in a moderating capacity, I do believe the time has come to re-open discussion regarding the current Bond System. In the spirit of continuous reassessment, this FB mechanic should be placed back in the public eye for scrutiny, as I believe that a number of members would appreciate efforts to further simplify it. Concerns that have been brought up in the Discord discussion relate to: 1) Ease of use, 2) Linking, and 3) The burden on SOs to keep this system updated. If you identify an additional concern, feel free to bring it up. For reference, here are the current mechanics: Quote:
|
|
01-06-2018, 10:45 PM | #2 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
|
Here's my opinion on bond:
-Remove the gating from the Move Relearner and from unnatural moves -Reduce the Happiness Evolution cap to 15-20 -Remove the ability to learn Shadow Moves. That never made sense. -Reduce the cap to 35-40 -Possibly remove Gummies from the game, and possibly remove the necessity to link
__________________
|
01-06-2018, 10:46 PM | #3 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
Posts: 3,280
|
As I mentioned in Discord, if it were feasible, the best way in my mind to manage this would be if we could make Bond be self-contained within adventures themselves as that's where most of the relevant posting happens. At that point, need for linking would hopefully be minimal if at all present, and rather than being a potentially giant post full of mostly nothing for an SO to trawl through, you instead just have updators making an additional side note to their updates.
However, one of the sticky points of thisis that we've thrown happiness evolutions into this system. If we pull them out, then really the only use we have for the system beyond a bunch of arbitrary things we threw in that didn't need to be there would be the negative portion of the scale for Shadow Pokemon, because we would ideally need some way to quantify purification unless we wanted to make Time Flutes Zone rewards that you get for adventuring with a Shadow Pokémon enough. In other words, if we tie happiness evos to something else and simplify how we do Shadow Pokémon since we seem to want to keep them around, what actual need do we have for Bond at that point? The answer is no need at all-because every other thing tied to Bond was just arbitrarily thrown in. So to clarify, if we want to keep a Bond system going, we should try to keep it contained within adventures rather than being a shop stat, but I'm more for separating the two necessary things from it and just junking it outright.
__________________
|
01-06-2018, 10:51 PM | #4 |
プラスチック♡ラブ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
|
I might post more later but I really don't care that much about specific systems.
However, I think it's worth me noting that having an SO review bond seems like it doesn't actually achieve much and is just another non-RP thing that creates a timesink and personhour drain for FB. |
01-06-2018, 11:04 PM | #5 |
Dragon's Tears
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Searching for light
Posts: 6,469
|
Lol is this bc I waited so long to do all my Bond conversions at once? *shot*
Honestly I don't have as much of a problem with it now that I've finally done all the hard work and I can just update as I go along from now on, but it is daunting at first. It does get confusing with linking in terms of teaching unnatural Moves, as I had to do so recently with my Wynaut and realized I'd pretty much have to do that anytime I taught him anything. OTL So I'd be down for doing away with Bond restrictions on Moves, as well as Emi's other suggestions to simplify things.
__________________
|
01-06-2018, 11:13 PM | #6 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,003
|
Honestly, I'm fine with bond the way it is, but I suspect I'm in the minority. I'm not saying it's flawless, but it's sort of a don't-fix-what-ain't-broke scenario.
Requiring SO confirmation on bond does seem like a time sink and undermines the atmosphere of player trust we tried to establish following the restructuring, but it's not something I'm willing to fight over either way. Self-serving opinion: I really like having access to double daycare levels at max bond and I'd hate to lose that in a system overhaul. Greedy? Totes. Sorry, not sorry. I'd be fine with removing move restrictions/dropping Shadow Move access though. It'd be nice if we could get AMs in the Move Tutor.
__________________
|
01-06-2018, 11:32 PM | #7 |
An actual game I made!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Literally the internet
Posts: 9,213
|
I'm in favor of removing the restriction on unnatural TMs and the move relearner. Honestly, my biggest complaint about Bond? It should have its own thread, separate from the Candy shop. It's a bit cluttered, in my opinion, and sometimes I gotta wade through a bunch of bond confirmation posts just to use some Rare Candies, or vice versa. I got no problem with Bond having to be confirmed by an SO, though- helps us to avoid mistakes. Nor do I have a problem with the other perks of Bond- as stated earlier, the only one I'm in favor of doing away with are the move restrictions.
And... I'm kinda in favor of keeping the Shadow moves. Not gonna lie, much of this is coming from personal preference, but it's where I stand on this regardless. Honestly, overall, I've had no big problems with Bond. Daunting though it was to convert the Happiness and IQ of every single one of my Pokémon into Bond, that had more to do with how many Pokémon I have, as opposed to some sort of issue with the mechanic itself. I think we did pretty good when we first made Bond a thing, and I see no real reason for any sort of major overhaul. |
01-07-2018, 01:08 AM | #8 |
Droppin' CDs and beats
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Quebec province, Canada
Posts: 2,350
|
Hello! So here's my personal take(s?) about the whole thing.
In general, I admit that part of me does find the whole process tiring, but not just in terms of the linking (as many SOs know, I am terrible at linking OTL); it's also terms of reaching some core mechanic things (ie evolutions). Maybe I'm a bit of a minority for the latter part because I do not post a lot (I'm restricted on posting about one RPed post a week, thanks for being a dam slow writer and having a full-time job), but it's still something, and it took me longer than I thought it would to be able to raise my Pokémon's happiness to evolve. The experience was in all honestly exhausting and even boring RP-wise as I was forced to RP with my happiness-evolving Pokémon in everything to get those Bond points instead of using the actual Pokémon I want to use in the RPing. But on the other hand, keeping track of things is kinda part of something I like about FB. One reason I have joined here originally was because I wanted somewhere that had a balance between RPing freely and track your stuff you accumulate over time as a more "concrete proof", that not only that you actually have that stuff/"abilities" (and not something that you go "oh I just happened to have this thing that completely resolves the plot!") but also as a personal achievement of seeing what you have accumulated and/or grown. So all and all, I'm on the fence on how we should approach this ^^; But here's some thoughts/ideas that I have on top of my head: "Small nuke" option: By "nuke" I mean "get rid of anything Bond", but by small I mean "not quite". Let me explain: Bond wouldn't be no longer a thing. However, good ol' Zone RPing could be used for anything that would actually/normally need Bond to do. As in, you have a whole adventure which the goal/reward would be to to either turning a Shadow Pokémon into a normal one, or to evolve a Pokémon via Happiness. Going on that route, Bond is no longer needed to keep track of, and yet the game mechanics in terms of friendship are still present. (And bonus points that it is through RP.) The downside is that the things we have added into the Bond system is gone too (chance of Pokémon disobeying, bonuses, etc.) Cleanup option: It's basically very similar to Emi's idea; Keep the Bond system, but make it more simple to keep track of and removing unnecessary stuff. In my personal opinion, those would be the ideal changes: - Removal of learning shadow moves in positive Bond levels.Following that, we are still keeping the current system with its rewards, and simplifying it for everyone to keep track of (or doesn't need to track if they don't want to!). That said, it makes those rewards easier to get or even automatically given, and there is still a minimum of bookkeeping (even if it is reduced). |
01-07-2018, 02:14 AM | #9 |
Weavile Pillow
|
Sandaa and I talked about Bond being in its own thread before, and we also talked about Bond being in a BMG thread. Still not sure about moving it to BMG yet, but it probably does deserve its own thread.
As for simplifying Bond, what I would do something similar to Emi's idea. I would definitely remove the Bond restriction on the Move Relearner, no reason for it to be in place. Then lower all the Bond reward tiers by 10, lower the maximum amount to 40, then have Mysterious Gummis only give 4 Bond. Also, no need for the Shadow Moves either in the higher Bond rewards, so I wouldn't feel too bad if they left the system.
__________________
Avatar made by din-of-hyrule Battlecut made by the crazy Daisy! *happy snek sounds* Twitch | YouTube | Twitter | Wild Future |
01-07-2018, 02:25 PM | #10 |
Volcano Badge
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,809
|
I honestly don't have any issue with the system as is. I can't stand linking tonnes of stuff, it was one of the things that kept me out of Fizzy Bubbles but I honestly don't consider linking bond to be that hard of a task. I think there are probably more important things to concentrate on.
|
01-07-2018, 02:42 PM | #12 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,003
|
I've been FB'ing from mobile pretty consistently since August. Linking anything on mobile is a bigger hassle than it would be on desktop, sure, but it's still super doable.
Some people seem to want to lower the max bond value and I'm wondering if there would be reimbursement in some form for Pokémon that already reached max bond in that case, because resources (gummis, balls, etc) would have been used in excess at that point.
__________________
|
01-07-2018, 02:46 PM | #13 |
An actual game I made!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Literally the internet
Posts: 9,213
|
I've never had a problem with the linking aspect of Bond. It really isn't any different than claiming Pokédollars from zone replies. I mean, granted, I never really had a problem with all the linking FB used to require (in fact, I still link to where moves were learned, evolutions happened, captures occurred, etc., in my member post, though this is less out of necessity and more for the sake of anyone who wants to see where something happened or whatever), either, but yeah, even with the addition of linking for Bond, things are way easier in that regard than they used to be.
|
01-07-2018, 06:06 PM | #14 | |||
Volcano Badge
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,464
|
As the person who has been left in charge of running Bond confirmations I would like to share a few thoughts regarding a few points that have been brought up. I want to preface this by stating that this discussion comes from my observations about Bond at the present moment. Additionally, these are strictly my own opinions; they do not reflect that of the moderating staff and I leave discussion open for more alternative solutions if people wish to present them. My last point before I get started is that Bond/IQ has had a rocky past as far as discussions go. I am reaching out to each and everyone here that we please keep discussion civil, no matter how differing your opinions might be. At the end of the day there is no singular correct solution so the moderating staff and I won’t simply deal with this one way or another. We might end up taking bits and pieces from different sides of everyone’s opinions or reaching an entirely middling compromise in other aspects altogether.
1. Removal of the Move-Relearner and Unnatural TM gate at 10 and 20 Bond & Reduction of Bond’s maximum from 50 to 40 or lower. While I am willing to listen to others’ opinions regarding desire to have these things remove and lowered, I am under the personal belief that as the ladder currently stands things have been working perfectly fine and there is no need to change them. Before people insist that they want to have their cake and eat it too, let me just rehash the original reasoning why the 10 and 20 bond tiers were set up. One of the strongest selling points of FB is how players are able to take part in it virtually however they want to take it. For those who thrive in realism, they can adhere to the laws set up by the games themselves or even the physics of real life and how they want to fit the Pokemon world into that. On the other hand, it’s also a place where players can customize Pokemon, grow them beyond their natural limits, recolor them, introduce special characteristics (within reason, see the Boutique for more details), and even teach them attacks that would otherwise never be accessible to certain Pokemon. The compromise (and I cannot understate that word enough) was that some of these things like unnatural movesets were gated at an extremely manageable level of 10 or 20 Bond. If you think about it, all that takes is a Luxury Ball or just the use of a few Gummis or zone posts to achieve. It’s really not hard at all to accomplish. My bottom line here is that unless a vast majority of members are willing to let go of that compromise, I don’t see the reason in changing things.2. The Happiness Evolution level at 30 Bond So here’s the argument that was brought up on discord before: If Bond is supposed to be optional, why have things that are not optional such as happiness-based evolutions included in it?3. Removal of Gummis from FB/Reduction of their effects. It is no secret that Bond has in large part become a matter of how quickly you can stuff your Pokemon into a Luxury Ball and how many gummis you can feed your Pokemon. That was not the intended purpose when we set up the guidelines of how Bond was to be acquired. We have already begun making steps towards balancing these issues out; such as raising the price of Luxury Balls and reducing their effect from 15 to 10 Bond as well as reducing the effect of Birthday Gummis from 3 to 2 Bond. Ideally we would like to see Bond be increased by the work and effort of roleplaying with your Pokemon through a zone adventure rather than just cramming items onto the Pokemon. This is an easy fix and I would be very open to the reduction of Mysterious Gummis’ effect from +5 Bond to +3 or 4 instead.4. Removal of the option to learn 1 Shadow Move at the 40 and 50 Bond tiers. I apologize if I sound like a broken record, but I will reiterate much of what I said on the first bullet point. A big part of the compromise (I’m going to keep using that word) when Bond was created was that we would integrate a number of extraneous numerical systems in FB. Another one of those systems was shadow Pokemon purification points. When we asked the community what kinds of things we wanted to pool together into the new Bond system (again, please refer to the two links I provided in the first bullet point), the acquisition of Shadow moves was a big part of that. (For the record, I was in the minority of people who did not want to include Shadow moves. But in the end I was willing to concede that point for the sake of compromise.) Once again I’m repeating myself, but Shadow Moves are only obtained on the 40 and 50 Bond tiers, which are completely optional. Additionally, you have other choices of moves to learn at those tiers. There are Advanced Moves like Blast Burn/Draco Meteor, and there are Custom Moves like Guardian Terrain and Defensive Shield. In all honesty, let those who want to learn shadow moves continue to be able to do so and if you don’t want to then you have options to learn something else. Or just stop counting bond after 30, it really doesn’t make a difference.5. How Bond functions as a shop-upkeep. (How links are dealt with, where Bond is currently located, etc) This is the topic where I think my opinion is most needed, considering I am the person who keeps track of bond confirmations in the Fizzy Candy Store. First of all, I would like to address this so-called “burden on the SO” because no one has actually asked me how I feel about doing bond confirmations. As the system is currently constructed, I have no problems with checking people’s links and I’m able to get through a week or two’s worth of updates in a very timely manner. So if you’re looking to ease my workload under the system that is currently in place, I say thank you for your concern but I am capable of handling it as it is. That just about wraps up my thoughts on the discussion of Bond. I know I wrote a lot, but I hope that if you really care about discussing this subject that you take the time to read through it as I have taken the time to go through your feedback and write it. Before I finish, I would like to address a few individual comments below, and I ask once again that we PLEASE keep discussion civil. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||
01-07-2018, 08:04 PM | #15 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,003
|
Just sliding in to say that I more or less think Gary has a good perspective on this, in my opinion.
Beyond that, I'd also like to see Bond split into its own shop. That my pointless addition.
__________________
|
01-07-2018, 08:30 PM | #16 |
Weavile Pillow
|
I was a little bit hasty in my input to this thread and
__________________
Avatar made by din-of-hyrule Battlecut made by the crazy Daisy! *happy snek sounds* Twitch | YouTube | Twitter | Wild Future |
Lower Navigation | ||||||
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|